Hancock 2019-2020 NEW rules

[trophyhunt]

did I mention I like the new lower cost! 

[justyhntr]

did I mention I like the new lower cost! 

You should also enjoy less vehicles, especially during the spring bear season.

[bracer40]

I think that was the best comment, on any subject, I've ever read on this forum. Well done. I'm in timber as well, but normally just let this stuff fly and don't get down in the weeds since it seems to never be a subject people are willing to be educated in. Hopefully this will help some folks learn a bit more about the industry before immediately labeling all large timber owners evil, corrupt, slimy organizations.

Absolutely agree! One of the best posts I've ever read on HW!!

[grade-creek-rd]

Alan K...I get your points and they make sense for the private timber company "logic" but not to the WA taxpayer/hunter/outdoor recreation user...here's my "opinion"...I don't care about operation costs of the timber company...if they receive ANY kind of tax break, even a deferment because of providing "public access" and still allowed to charge then it's wrong, and it's obvious that they are trying to reduce the amount of passes sold, out pricing the average buyer...just like I don't care about the guy who spends $100,000 on an auction tag (fyi, that comparison is stupid as that money goes 100% to the foundations and wildlife division, not into some East Coast shareholders portfolio). My point is that they are making it a private hunt club anyway and still getting the tax breaks/deferments. If anything, they should be allowing FREE access (with rules and waivers in place...I have no problem with knowing who is on the land, when/where they are and holding them accountable). This whole "roads, security, garbage, etc" is part of their business...either they are a timber company or they are a hunt club, right now they are trying to be both and exploiting both ends of it. You can throw out all the numbers you want, again, I don't care, as they are making money off of the permit sales and getting tax breaks/deferments. My analogy of the wheat farmer in the Palouse shows that there are FREE programs out there for large private land owners.

Again, not trying to pick a fight, just replying that your "justifications" are falling on deaf ears, especially when they are taking away family permits, selling lands to the Muckleshoots, and as you stated Hancock isn't the only land owner in Kapowsin, but they are running the access program, so by your own admittance they are literally making the access program into a "for profit" business...do you really thing all of the permit fees are going towards road maintenance, garbage collection and security? Pretty sure those other land owners/timber companies pay to do that too, as part of their costs of doing business.

They already shut down the elk hunting in there, the deer hunting sucks...so if this is how the "access program" is going, then WDFW and the state needs to step in and call it as it is, a hunt club and take away any tax breaks/deferments they get and treat it as any other property taxed business...

Grade

[deerlick]

note. all shed horns to be collected by hancock at point of entry.















not really but should be coming soon as you guys buy some permits

[logger]

Alan K...I get your points and they make sense for the private timber company "logic" but not to the WA taxpayer/hunter/outdoor recreation user...here's my "opinion"...I don't care about operation costs of the timber company...if they receive ANY kind of tax break, even a deferment because of providing "public access" and still allowed to charge then it's wrong, and it's obvious that they are trying to reduce the amount of passes sold, out pricing the average buyer...just like I don't care about the guy who spends $100,000 on an auction tag (fyi, that comparison is stupid as that money goes 100% to the foundations and wildlife division, not into some East Coast shareholders portfolio). My point is that they are making it a private hunt club anyway and still getting the tax breaks/deferments. If anything, they should be allowing FREE access (with rules and waivers in place...I have no problem with knowing who is on the land, when/where they are and holding them accountable). This whole "roads, security, garbage, etc" is part of their business...either they are a timber company or they are a hunt club, right now they are trying to be both and exploiting both ends of it. You can throw out all the numbers you want, again, I don't care, as they are making money off of the permit sales and getting tax breaks/deferments. My analogy of the wheat farmer in the Palouse shows that there are FREE programs out there for large private land owners.

Again, not trying to pick a fight, just replying that your "justifications" are falling on deaf ears, especially when they are taking away family permits, selling lands to the Muckleshoots, and as you stated Hancock isn't the only land owner in Kapowsin, but they are running the access program, so by your own admittance they are literally making the access program into a "for profit" business...do you really thing all of the permit fees are going towards road maintenance, garbage collection and security? Pretty sure those other land owners/timber companies pay to do that too, as part of their costs of doing business.

They already shut down the elk hunting in there, the deer hunting sucks...so if this is how the "access program" is going, then WDFW and the state needs to step in and call it as it is, a hunt club and take away any tax breaks/deferments they get and treat it as any other property taxed business...

Grade

you mentioned tax breaks several times, what are those tax breaks that you mentioned?  as far as I am aware of timberland is taxed as timberland regardless of who owns it

[fireweed]

Timber companies don't even pay sales tax on the permit income--how is this not a tax break? 

And you are right, the property tax breaks are NOT tax breaks, they are tax shifts. The government still gets their taxes--they just get more from the average Joe and less from Big W.   The property tax burden on forestland is actually shifted from them to us.  The excise tax (which is collected at harvest) has nothing to do with property tax on land, only the tax on the trees. 

Citizens voted to change the State Constitution in 1969 so this shift would be allowed.  Certain open-space land is valued at less than its fair market value.  Why would we do such a thing?  To protect the public benefits that open space areas, like timberland, provide.  As I've pointed out before,RCW 84.33.010, legislative findings justify the tax shift with a list of public benefits including "habitat for wild game" and  "scenic and recreational spaces".  Industrial timberlands are now charging for access to both recreational spaces and wildlife--simple double dipping. 

 It doesn't have to be this way--all or nothing tax shift.  In fact, in one open space category in our state, the landowner "earns" a higher tax discount through a "public benefit rating system".  We could do it with timberland.  Wisconsin, Michigan and several other states already to this, so it's not so far fetched.   

Hancock is just the worst offender of all,  and with bears, I simply can't believe--especially after the negative King 5 coverage of timberland hound hunting, that they would charge hunters more to hunt problem bears.  It doesn't matter if the boot hunters are not killing the "right" bears--its a matter of optics.  They are just begging the WDFW to cut out all the loopholes for timber companies for peeling bears.

[grade-creek-rd]

Logger...here you go, as stated by the Washington Department of Revenue, a nice guide to reference on Timber Company tax breaks, how to file for them and how to "de-value" the land so they don't have to pay a higher tax rate...(and again,Once Hancock-and other timber companies requiring the public to purchase a pass to access the lands they are no longer timber lands, they are recreation lands, no different than a hunt club or a amusement park where you have to pay to have access to the lands/usage).

Link to tax breaks spelled out by WA Depart. of Revenue: https://dor.wa.gov/sites/default/files/legacy/docs/pubs/prop_tax/openspace.pdf

And thank you Fireweed for breaking it down correctly...see his comment above mine, as its a synopsis of the guide in the link I posted!


Grade

[Matth]

Sounds like big timber should lock all of the gates, classify everything as timber lands, pay full bore for taxes, drive the cost of lumber up, send everyone to public lands, and all will be happy, correct!!!!
Right, we want unconditional access, with zero accountability, to property that is not ours I honestly not sure any action will be widely excepted.

[Buckhunter24]

My understanding of open space is there are 3 seperate programs.

Open space which benefits the county with access for the public.

Designated forest and ag which benefit the county with jobs for local contractors/stimulated local economy. The additional benefit being the land cannot be developed without 7 years back taxes at the applicable tax rate.. residential, commercial etc.

Edited to add,

The public does not have any say in whether or not access is provided to designated forest or ag land. Open space land they do.

[crowinghen]

Justyhntr and I just bought our timberland access pass for  2019-

 Snoqualmie here we come!

[Skyvalhunter]

Hope you go into it with a open mind

[crowinghen]

Hope you go into it with a open mind

mostly  just want to predator hunt there, we have other areas that we will also be hunting.

what's the problem there? We had the pass a few years ago- we had no issues.

[Skyvalhunter]

I guess my experience has been the deer hunting wasn't as good as I expected. The firewood was not much unless you like butts and really picked over. I had the north cascades on to and it was even less deer. Didn't care the fire shutdowns but that's a every year thing these days. But that's just my experiences

[crowinghen]

I guess my experience has been the deer hunting wasn't as good as I expected. The firewood was not much unless you like butts and really picked over. I had the north cascades on to and it was even less deer. Didn't care the fire shutdowns but that's a every year thing these days. But that's just my experiences

I hear ya!
We were able to obtain access to some property full of deer, so that's where we will deer hunt.

It's just too expensive to buy the Kapowsin pass for 2 people just to go in and hunt their predators. And that WDFW  biologist doesn't shut down the unit based on "assumed kills"., I'm talking assumed kills of cougar, not people.