Swakane sheep and South Chelan goats.

[videoman]

A couple of weeks ago some guys from fwans and sci participated in a collaring project in the swakane unit.  The bio's over there think that there is only like 60 something sheep in the whole swakane unit that is why they are not issuing a tag this yr.  Between 3 of us in 4hrs, we spotted over 80 and 26 of them rams. 

Also about 3 yrs ago I participated in a goat survey in the south chelan unit we spotted 160 goats by helicopter and still no tag.  Why? 

I think are game dept is being ran by non-hunters.

As a whole we need to help the game dept in surveys so they know what is there.  Video, Gps, and document what you see and write letters  to help.  The only reason those animals are there is because of hunters dollars. 

[turkey slayer]

I herd they aren't giving permits out because of how many sheep got hit last year on 97A, nothing about only 60 sheep in the Swakane  

[boneaddict]

Videoman is correct.  Just like Norse was saying about the Naches units.  They are grossly underestimateing the population.  It will take our dollars and time to also fix things like the swakane (the fence) stuff like that.  How many anti-hunters do you see out there sinking fence posts or fixing fences. Very typical!

[provider]

Videoman, actually the population est. for the Swakane herd is more than that.  In fact, it’s very close to the number you guys counted over those two days (70-75).  Those population estimates from the Bio’s are always conservative, and for good reasons too.  Basically it’s always better to error on the safe side and I think prudent to do so.  That approach certainly is important when managing highly sensitive and susceptible species like bighorn sheep.

The Swakane herd may have the minimum population requirements to fulfill the formula standards that determine if a permit can be issued, but there are other considerations (social, political, economic) in addition to the biological.  I think the recommendation to not have a permit is more the former than the latter.

We lost far too many sheep on the Hwy in recent years, including many of the very large rams.  Biologically, “a sheep is a sheep is a sheep”, but loss of those large mature rams affects not only the hunting opportunity…  but some guys even like photographing them, others enjoy just seeing them etc…  Point being there are other uses for these majestic animals than just hunting.  (And no one needs to explain to me how important hunting bighorn sheep in the Swakane is.) 

When you add the serious threat of disease transmission from domestic livestock in the Swakane, to the Hwy mortality, to the other natural mortality factors…  the stability of that herd is threatened.  I know we all want to hunt bighorn sheep in the Swakane, but right now I agree with the recommendation to suspend hunting there (and I've been called many things, but never an anti).  Whether or not the Commission will adopt this recommendation…?  We’ll see this weekend.

[boneaddict]

and....if you provide one tag then you pretty much open it up for auction tag and raffle tag as well....plus there is tribal harvest (which will happen no matter what, but if they close it for conservation reasons then they can supposdely stop that as well......)

[turkey slayer]

I just read on the WADOT web site that they are starting the 97A game fence project today, this is phase 1. My question is how are the sheep and mule deer going to get water? Is the state going to put in culverts for the sheep and deer to get water?

[boneaddict]

I agree, that was one of my first huge concerns about that project when I saw it.  Doublelung might know.  I'm not sure what kind of natural water there is in there.  They fenced Clem and stuff, but there is quite a bit of natural water available to them.  It might force the animals back........any thoughts?

I was informed that my information about the govtag and raffle was incorrect.  I thought if there was one available tag they could hunt it.  SORRY

[ramslam]

Point of clarification, the auction and raffle tags are open to units with 2 or more draw permits.  Swakane would not be open to auction/raffle hunters.

As far as closing the Swakane this year the bios must consider the population trend not just population.  The highway loss has been very heavy the last couple years.  It would not be prudent for the long term health of the Swakane herd to continue harvesting rams.  We must flatten/reverse the trend first.

[popeshawnpaul]

I have some mixed emotions about this one.  I have a picture of approximately 50 ewes in one picture from the Swakane last November.  I know there were other ewes that I saw along the unit as well so that wasn't just the whole bunch.  If I had to estimate that population, I would say over 100 and maybe 120.  They need to get the fence in to stop the highway losses.  By the way, if you have ever seen the deer carcass pit, this fence will save a ton of mule deer for that unit as well...

My own personal belief and my wildlife management background tells me that sheep do better when the population is well under the carrying capacity and the population is growing.  That is when you get the biggest rams and most growth for the herd.  Based on the new population data we have, I do think the Swakane should open up for a tag this year.  Of course, that will create issues with governor tags and such but they can be precluded from hunting in that unit.

Videoman brings a valid point about the goats.  This is happening all over our state.  They conduct population estimates on Chelan and spot tons of goats in the winter out there.  Yet they only give out one Manson tag for north Chelan.  It makes no sense.  That is big rugged country and goats can really hide out there.  Despite this, they still spot a bunch of goats from the boats.  If you take a helicopter it sounds like you can count even more.  

I would like to think the managment decisions are being made based on caution about the populations.  I'm not one for conspiracy theories so I will buy that for now.  However, when there is good evidence to the contrary these decisions must be revisited.  My only other question is whether the additional data and population counts get to the proper people making the decision.  For example, did the survey that videoman did via the helecopter make it to the proper manager?  I would imagine these managers need to make decisions on how accurate the data is given the source as well.  I think that could be done though.  

Lastly, this goes back to a managment philosophy regarding goats that I don't agree with.  I think goats can be hunted and sustain a good population.  The game department does not think that goats can be hunted without hurting the population.  Whether we need to address these concerns with male only goat tags or what I think we can get over this issue.  Certainly I would be willing to go to a short seminar to determine what a male vs female goat looks like and how to identify such.  That would not cost much and would be a feasible way to give out more goat tags if they are worried about female goats.  I can tell you if there was a goat population in Colorado that numbered 160 goats they would give out 5-10 tags...  We give out none...

[teal101]

Regarding the water:

There is a pond up the Swakane a few miles.  Its right down from the "barn" that's up there at the pheasant release area.  There's a stream that runs down the whole canyon that is under ground through most of the field portion.  A beaver has created a damn and made a small pond up there that the doves and a few ducks use.

Up on top of Birch Mountain there's quite a few small springs and even a pond that's kinda tucked back in.  I'm not sure how much the sheep use that southern portion of the range though.  Recently my little brother got together with the Wenatchee Sportsmans Association and for his Eagle Scout project plumbed a spring to run into a trough so there was cleaner more accessible water for the deer up there.

I know further up where the road splits to go to Sugarloaf or Entiat there's a series of ponds and marsh in there.  Really thick cover though and more in the trees so not sure on sheep usage.  I do know that a buddy of mine seen a game department truck with an animal transport trailer attached go up that way after they caught those moose in Wenatchee.   Its perfect habitat for em.  There's also a few small springs and creeks over towards the Entiat side.  I'm not sure how many of these springs and creeks flow throughout the summer though.

I'll have to take a trip up there this summer when its hotter than hell and see what all springs and creeks are still moving.  Most of Birch dries up by July...

[boneaddict]

Thanks guys for chiming in. 
Here are some interesting Montana GOAT population estimates and the tags they allocate.
unit 142     population 40    tags 2
unit 150     population 50    tags 2
unit 151     population 40    tags 2
unit 313     populaiton 300   tags 50
unit 314     population 65    tags 14
unit 316     populaiton 90    tags 12
unit 323     population 130   tags 26
unit 329     population 150   tags 25
unit 393     population 80    tags 5

[Alpinegus]

Certainly I would be willing to go to a short seminar to determine what a male vs female goat looks like and how to identify such.  That would not cost much and would be a feasible way to give out more goat tags if they are worried about female goats.

WA provides video access to tell the mtn goat boys from the girls when you draw a tag.

[ramslam]

Interesting numbers.  Any chance you can find/share harvest success for those units as well?? 

[popeshawnpaul]

Not only do we have Montana and Colorado to look to for real examples of goat management, but we have our own state.  We use to give out tags like that in our state back in the 80's and part of the early 90's.  I think 5 tags were given out in the alpine lakes wilderness and I use to spend a ton of time in there seeing goats.  It didn't hurt those populations.

That's good to know they have video access to determine sex with goats alpinegus.  Why don't they make that mandatory and give out a few more tags...?  One of the main issues they cite is that the killing of old nannies severely hurts the population.  It seems that would go a long way to fix that situation.

[boneaddict]

Out of all those, 329 was the only one to decline in tags,but on the other hand 313 increased in tags.  I don't have the success rates but I imagine excellent or high.  I'll see what I can find.

[WABONEHNTR]

Gov tag and auction tag guys can only hunt in areas that have 2 or more tags. 

[whacker1]

Bone - Thanks for sharing the stats on Montana - Interesting comparison

[wa.hunter]

The really sad part about some of what is going on here is that 2 weeks ago a ram had to be put down that was sick and to be honest just old or at least in my opionion 10+ years being old in most sheep years. the ram scored right at 178+ and guess what there are 2 more there that are probably just as old or will be before someone gets a chance to draw a tag.  Why then can't WDFW have a tag where only one of these 2 rams can be harvested they will both score over 180 and ultimately die of old age.the Swakane unit is a unit which should be hunted in November like some of the other units where by the oldest rams could be found and harvested rather than the younger breeding rams being the one's that are getting shot.  This state has a history of once a unit is closed it is difficult to get it opened up again. The goat units are the best examples out there. Da lets see what really has cause alot of our problems..Hound hunting is eliminated for bear and cougars and with in a few years we have problems all over the state with animal populations or maybe I should say the lack of a population in many areas.
Back to Swakane if any one really cared the fence would have been built several years ago this is not a new problem, and also why don't we just move some of the many ewes that are getting shot in other units to this unit to supplement the losses,why we don't is probably because this is a high risk unit in the first place with the contact with livestock all the houses that are going in isn't going to help either. these sheep are cruising around inside the city limits of Wenatchee face it they are a doomed herd. So why not just give out another permit.

[provider]

I strongly disagree with a Swakane permit season being in November.  That would not be a hunt...  it would be a joke.  The location of those sheep that time of year would create real problems, and very visible to the public.  A recipe for trouble.

The current season structure contributes to makeing this a difficult hunt.  Just look at the effort (number of days per harvest) compared to the other hunt units.  And if the scores are any indication, these are not young rams being killed.

The Hwy 97A Wildlife Fence IS going to be built, and only because a large number of people care deeply about that herd and the other wildlife in that area.  Expect to see construction start soon on the first four miles of fence.

"Doomed?"...   Not if I have anything to do about it. 

[chukarchaser]

years ago the unit only had 40+ sheep and it was open, so the numbers increased. Closing this unit us a joke, it smacks of anti hunting.  its a fact sheep cannot be stockpiled, one domestic sheep in the area and we loose them all just like what has happened in other units including the Quil.  WDFW flips strategies and goals more than any organization i know.

[videoman]

The numbers that the game dept came up with are not true.  I have already drawn my sheep tag so one might ask what the big deal then.  Well the big deal,  there are for sure 3 rams in the swakane unit that will die of old age with in two yrs and the other is that I would love for someone else to have the same experience I did.

To Provider:  If you are so sure the game dept numbers are correct I would love to take you over there and do a count just to show you they are wrong or you can PM me your address and I can send you my survey video uncut.  Then you can count them for yourself.

I strongly agree with putting up the fence asap.

Does anybody have any thing to say about not have a tag in South Chelan with a population 3 yrs ago of a 160?  That is for sure 3 tags over 3 yrs that us hunters have been denied.

I spend hrs of time and money to help protect and preserve wildlife so that we can have a healthy population to hunt and photograph.  I am not out to kill them all just the rights to hunt a health population.  The Swakane Sheep and the South Chelan Goats are health!!!!

[shanevg]

The numbers that the game dept came up with are not true.  I have already drawn my sheep tag so one might ask what the big deal then.  Well the big deal,  there are for sure 3 rams in the swakane unit that will die of old age with in two yrs and the other is that I would love for someone else to have the same experience I did.

To Provider:  If you are so sure the game dept numbers are correct I would love to take you over there and do a count just to show you they are wrong or you can PM me your address and I can send you my survey video uncut.  Then you can count them for yourself.

I strongly agree with putting up the fence asap.

Does anybody have any thing to say about not have a tag in South Chelan with a population 3 yrs ago of a 160?  That is for sure 3 tags over 3 yrs that us hunters have been denied.

I spend hrs of time and money to help protect and preserve wildlife so that we can have a healthy population to hunt and photograph.  I am not out to kill them all just the rights to hunt a health population.  The Swakane Sheep and the South Chelan Goats are health!!!!

I'm just curious, do you send your survey videos to WDFW for them to see?  That seems like exactly the kind of data they need to have. 

[chukarchaser]

I agree the fence has to go up ASAP.  i am also curious where our local FNAWS chapter stands on closing Swakane.    I would guess there silence says they support it.  This is just a waste of another resource by WDFW.

Its also interesting that Chelan county PUD has headcount numbers for lake Chelan goats that would tend to support videomans counts.

[fc2038]

Thanks guys for chiming in. 
Here are some interesting Montana GOAT population estimates and the tags they allocate.
unit 142     population 40    tags 2
unit 150     population 50    tags 2
unit 151     population 40    tags 2
unit 313     populaiton 300   tags 50
unit 314     population 65    tags 14
unit 316     populaiton 90    tags 12
unit 323     population 130   tags 26
unit 329     population 150   tags 25
unit 393     population 80    tags 5

Thanks that is interesting information. I did not know that

[provider]

To Provider:  If you are so sure the game dept numbers are correct I would love to take you over there and do a count just to show you they are wrong or you can PM me your address and I can send you my survey video uncut.  Then you can count them for yourself.

Hi Video,  I didn't say the WDFW herd population estimates (numbers) were correct...  I said they were conservative, and that is the correct way to approach it.  Anyway, I am looking forward to seeing your video.  Just do me a favor and edit out the part of me trying to untangle the nets please!

i am also curious where our local FNAWS chapter stands on closing Swakane.    I would guess there silence says they support it.

They probably havn't been as silent as you think.

[gottatree]

WDFW, has there head up something. What animal in our state have they actualy managed with success.

[DOUBLELUNG]

I agree, that was one of my first huge concerns about that project when I saw it.  Doublelung might know. 

From Swakane to Spencer Cyn, there are at least 7 drainages with at least one source of permanent water west of the highway, verified on foot in August during a drought year.  A fence won't limit availability of water for the sheep.

[DOUBLELUNG]

A couple of weeks ago some guys from fwans and sci participated in a collaring project in the swakane unit.  The bio's over there think that there is only like 60 something sheep in the whole swakane unit that is why they are not issuing a tag this yr.  Between 3 of us in 4hrs, we spotted over 80 and 26 of them rams. 

Also about 3 yrs ago I participated in a goat survey in the south chelan unit we spotted 160 goats by helicopter and still no tag.  Why? 

I think are game dept is being ran by non-hunters.

As a whole we need to help the game dept in surveys so they know what is there.  Video, Gps, and document what you see and write letters  to help.  The only reason those animals are there is because of hunters dollars. 

The local bios, being conservative, can only verify 70-75 sheep.  They suspect there are more,which was the main point of collaring the sheep - better counts.

According to the district wildlife biologist for Chelan County from 3 years ago, he does not recall any aerial survey associated with Cliff Rice's goat sightability survey which observed more than 60 goats in the area of Chelan County south of Lake Chelan. 

[chukarchaser]

Does anyone know the outcome of the tag for 09.  Why the sudden rush to close this unit given the high numbers of sheep?

[videoman]

Now that I know who the Provider is he could probably answer the question better than anyone. 

[teal101]

I agree, that was one of my first huge concerns about that project when I saw it.  Doublelung might know. 

From Swakane to Spencer Cyn, there are at least 7 drainages with at least one source of permanent water west of the highway, verified on foot in August during a drought year.  A fence won't limit availability of water for the sheep.

Thanks for the info.  I seem to remember there being 3 that I know of that are permanent.

[klickman]

Thanks guys for chiming in. 
Here are some interesting Montana GOAT population estimates and the tags they allocate.
unit 142     population 40    tags 2
unit 150     population 50    tags 2
unit 151     population 40    tags 2
unit 313     populaiton 300   tags 50
unit 314     population 65    tags 14
unit 316     populaiton 90    tags 12
unit 323     population 130   tags 26
unit 329     population 150   tags 25
unit 393     population 80    tags 5

That is very interesting info there.  I wonder what the reported number of people who drew the tag vs. the number of people who actually hunted goats.  Most game departments account for hunters not hunting that could be the reason for the high tag counts.  Goats tend to be in the most rugged country there is.  I bet a lot of people don't realize this either.  Just look at all the hunting sites.  After the draw results come out you get all sorts of posts from people saying "I just drew XX permit" any info on where I should go".  I think this is even more the case in the Rockies where the terrian is even more inaccessable than WA. 

I think there are more goats that the bio's say there are.   

Klickman

[WABONEHNTR]

According to the district wildlife biologist for Chelan County from 3 years ago, he does not recall any aerial survey associated with Cliff Rice's goat sightability survey which observed more than 60 goats in the area of Chelan County south of Lake Chelan. 
[/quote]


So is he saying it never happend or is he saying they only saw 60 goats total.  Just so and you everyone else know the fight did happen and 160+ goats were spotted on each side of the lake.  I am pretty sure SCI funded those flights.  We have some great bio's in this state.

[provider]

Uh oh...