Rosie vs. Cascade Rosie vs. Rocky Mountain elk.

[Tbob]

So is there really such a thing as a “cascade Rosie”? And if so where would you draw that line? Also if that’s true do they behave more like a true costal Rosie or more like a Rocky Mountain elk? Are they like a hybrid of both or are they Roosevelt elk that happen to live on the west side of the cascades? Thanks !

[bkaech]

The difference in my opinion is more on the habitat they live in. All thick dark west side habitat the elk will have more Rosie traits and behaviors. As you get up to the cascade crest and timber opens up a bit and ground gets rockier you get more Rocky Mountain elk traits and behaviors. With that said, there isn’t that much difference between the two.

[Mudman]

   Good question.  I read of the differences but only know this.  1 being horn size and color.  Color I think is more about trees they rub on but who knows.  Size.  Roosies are big.  Now experience has shown me a local herd that was mostly Roosevelt genes.  Over the years elk from Rainier herd Worked down and started co mingling with that herd.  Over past 30 years horn size has increased in random bulls while body size has remained mostly similar.  a 7-8 pt bull was unheard of in past. 6pt was rare and 5pt the norm.  I think it is a highly variable answer resulting in no real conclusions..

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

According to my understanding, cervous elaphus (?) Migrated across the Bering land bridge into N.America and spread east.
Due to climate changes, some were isolated in coastal pacific northwest (Roosevelt), while the others lived in Rocky Mountains and east.
Numbers radically expanded after some serious fires and logging in the early 1900's opened up areas to forage growth.. (Previously closed canopy old growth)
Introduction of Rocky Mountain elk in Washington established the elk we have in Eastern Washington.
Studies have shown that genetically they are so similar that they can crossbreed, and if transplanted will assimilate and take on the characteristics of the local population.
This is evidence of the environment and habitat being responsible for adaptation.
Essentially the same animals, but geography has caused a difference.
As far as the "line" goes, coast to I-5 is Roosevelt, I-5 to the Cascade crest is "Cascade Roosevelt, and anything east of the crest is Rocky Mountain.
The elk don't know the difference, and cross both lines at will.
However, habitat seems to be the main reason for the differences, types of forage (diet) and escape cover (type of undergrowth) clearly dictate ability to adapt and survive, and the main difference between the species.
The age old saying of "elk are where you find them" is never more true than when you find them in the thick timber and open parks, or the dense coastal rainforest and swamps.
They are all elk, but they are going to behave in the way they have adapted to their habitat in order to survive.
Even elk that live in the high country of the Olympics will be different than the lowland coastal Roosevelt's,

[JimmyHoffa]

The difference in my opinion is more on the habitat they live in. All thick dark west side habitat the elk will have more Rosie traits and behaviors. As you get up to the cascade crest and timber opens up a bit and ground gets rockier you get more Rocky Mountain elk traits and behaviors. With that said, there isn’t that much difference between the two.

When big parts of the coast would get logged, it was common to see herds of roosies in the hundreds, like their rocky brothers.  When it grows back, they keep breaking into smaller groups. 

[Old Man Yager]

When my Dad and his gang hunted Forks area in the 60,s and 70's, there were elk running all over the place. They would see elk on the run and jump in the trucks and haul ass around to head them off. You could see for miles cause it was a lot of clearcut. They used to be pretty succesful, times have changed!!

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

When my Dad and his gang hunted Forks area in the 60,s and 70's, there were elk running all over the place. They would see elk on the run and jump in the trucks and haul ass around to head them off. You could see for miles cause it was a lot of clearcut. They used to be pretty succesful, times have changed!!

Yeah, in the 80's we used to load guys in the bed of the truck and start dropping them off along the roads when we found a herd.
Worked great for deer too.
All those clear cuts were full of food,.. now... Not so much.

[Tbob]

Very interesting.. so I’m curious, I feel that Rosie’s are a bit more territorial than Rocky’s. If you agree, would you say that the Cascade Rosie’s, are more territorial than a true Rocky Mt elk?

[WapitiTalk1]

They are all the same and react/adjust their mannerisms depending on various physiological and mental stimuli (predator pressure, weather, etc). Good thread 

[JimmyHoffa]

I would think so.  If they live in a more wooded area, they would have to remember more things about their turf and how to get around.  The head cow has to memorize the trails and different areas to use.  So, if her trails are shorter between turns and go to smaller food sources and small creeks to cross, then she would hold the herd to smaller territory than an elk that lives in an area with fewer trees (just an example) where she might have to remember less and can expand the distance--having more territory.  It's interesting how they will run to certain areas knowing where to cross exactly.

[Mudman]

I do believe rosy are less vocal.  Maybe its because of environment less open or migration tends to be less?  Dunno if I am correct but it sure has been that for me.

[cougforester]

I do believe rosy are less vocal.  Maybe its because of environment less open or migration tends to be less?  Dunno if I am correct but it sure has been that for me.

Rosies are more vocal than Rockies. Just have to be close enough to hear em.

[Sliverslinger]

I do believe rosy are less vocal.  Maybe its because of environment less open or migration tends to be less?  Dunno if I am correct but it sure has been that for me.

Rosies are more vocal than Rockies. Just have to be close enough to hear em.

  this is true. The sound doesn’t carry nearly as well in the thick timber and reprod as it does in the open country. They can’t hear your location bugles as well and you can’t hear their responses as well. In my experience Rosie’s also tend to chuckle much more regularly than RM.

[Bucks2Ducks]

I do believe rosy are less vocal.  Maybe its because of environment less open or migration tends to be less?  Dunno if I am correct but it sure has been that for me.

I agree with you. I would say the top 10 bugling performances I've seen have all been Rocky Mtn, and I primarily hunt Rosies. My areas the terrain isn't all that different, I would imagine the density of elk to be somewhat similar as well... Cow/Bull ratio probably different though

[Okanagan]

I'm no expert but from decades of experience have formed a tentative theory that the thicker the vegetation, the more vocal the animals that live in it.

The same species IME seem to be more sound oriented in areas where they cannot see each other very far.  I formed that idea from observing, listening and calling moose in extremely thick areas compared to more open country, and from talking with guide friends.  That has seemed to carry true to Washington State elk east and west, though I agree that the sounds may not be loud.  Animals merely keeping in conversational touch in thick vegetation need only tiny sounds, often unheard by humans or ignored by humans.

  When it comes to bugling however, IME Rockies seem more aggressive, bugle more frequently, are more likely to bugle on their own rather than only reply to a bugle, and tend to bugle louder. Maybe it is a dominance thing where sound carries farther in the wide open canyons.  Along that line, a couple of years ago we had a Rosie bull come in to a call silently, then in the only sound we heard  him make, one time he made the quietest whisper of a bugle I've ever heard.  I wonder if he did not want any elk to hear it other than the one he thought that he was close to.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

I agree about animals being more vocal when they cannot see each other.
I also have noticed that they don't go around screeming at each other.
My experiences are much like Okanagans.
When communicating the elk are only loud enough to get their message to the intended recipient, not acting like a loud drunk, being loud for no reason.
.
Did you know an elk can make all the hair on their rump stand up when alarmed? (much like pronghorn)
Not all forms of communication are vocal.
.
In my experience and opinion, Roosevelt elk travel in closer proximity to each other, and merely communicate within their small area, unless they are broadcasting their location in search of other elk.
.
In the area I hunt, I hear more bugles in early August than in September.
I think this time is when young bulls are actively searching for a herd that won't run them off.
Bull/cow ratios are targeted to be 12+/100, which averages out to one bull with ten cows, this seems to be consistent with my observations, small scattered herds with only one bull, yet when I see 12, or more cows, then I see 2-3 bulls.
These larger herds are rare in my area, and usually the focus of local hunters.
This could cause the elk to be a little call shy, not only from bad experiences with hunters, but also competing with older, more aggressive bulls.
.
I personally get more responses from raking and chuckles than I do with location bugles.
Bugling often gets silent bulls sneaking in, unless I am right in on the herd.
I also have noticed that Roosevelt seem to come in slower than RM, often I have given up on a set-up, only to spook one of those silent bulls.

[cougforester]

I agree with the chuckles being a very good technique for calling Rosies. But I've found that once you get in the "red zone", 50-100 yards and threaten them, they come in like a freight train ready to fight.

The bull we killed last year covered 80 yards in about 3 seconds when we got set up ready to brawl. But, then to your point about silent bulls, we were just finishing up taking pictures and starting to get cutting, another bull had snuck in silently and finally got our wind from about 10 yards away and busted. Had no idea he was there. So we had both behaviors clearly exhibited within about 20 minutes of each other.

[blackveltbowhunter]

IME, vocalization and or vocal responses are driven exclusively by 3 things, mood, pressure, and BTC ratio. Its like a triangle, hot bull, good BTC, low pressure. Both species will be sounding off a lot.

 My observations have been that Aggressive approach or the commitment phase is driven by mood and habitat. Bulls that grow up in areas where they can't see until very close have been much more aggressive to not only bugles but noise in general.

   Although we will likely never fully know why; a couple reasons come to mind. One might be the sight factor itself. Because they can't see they have to get close to confirm target. Because they have no distance, they come in ready to fight because they have no choice. Another is that elk that live in more vegetated areas with prevalent feed and water don't travel as much unpressured. This creates a smaller home profile and that bull is less likely to randomly cross paths with other bulls during day  to day activity.  He doesn't need to bugle as much, but when he does its for a reason. On the opposite end of the spectrum, bulls who have herds that need a lot of movement just to carry out the day to day often cross paths with other bulls. Location bugling is huge for these guys, and its not unusual to have hundreds of locate bugles thrown around a canyon and bulls never budge. When herds collide that's when things get real, but typically these bulls have grown up in areas where they use their eyes to confirm the other senses. That sense slows them down, and he may be very wary unless in his home turf.

  I know when I began hunting areas other than dense westside it started a sharp learning curve. But I still base my tactics primarily on terrain and vegetation. Species doesn't even come into play for me. I have had rosies bugle all day long across a clear cut canyon, and I have had Rockies charge through a hundred yards of pine to kill me once I was in his bedroom. In general I think rosies habitat predisposes them to being more aggressive, vocal but less big bugles, and conversely Rockys often need the big noise and use it to avoid trouble. But both species cross over all the time.

   
 

[Old Man8383]

WDFW did genetic profile work ups of some elk in SW in the mid to late 1990's.  Don't know how large the sample size was.  WDFW had proposed relocating elk from the Chehalis River basin West of I 5 to other areas and it was questioned if they were Roosevelt's or hybrids.  Of the elk WDFW tested from a variety of studies and I think from field check stations in SW Washington all elk tested West of I 5 were Roosevelts.  Those tested East of I 5 were all hybrids except in the Coweeman drainage where the elk tested were Roosevelts.  Surprisingly from areas that historically were known to have elk move across I 5 there still were no hybrids West of I 5.

Since there are no absolutes in this type of thing, its safe to say there are still probably few if any hybrids West of I 5 and there are probably few or no pure blooded Roosevelt left East of I 5.