WA Preference Point System - Elk

[chad24n]

Briefly looked around for an answer and couldn't fine one. Also not sure where to post this topic. Need help understanding a specific question about WA Preference Point System. Didn't see it on WDFW either.

My Brother in law drew a Quality Elk Tag for any bull in EA WA Archery. We both like to put in for 2 specific units, one of the units has a quarter of the tags as the other with same number of applicants. I always enter the unit with less tags as my first choice, he entered the unit with more tags as his first choice and was drawn for his first choice, even though we both would rather hunt the unit with less tags.

So the question, he put the more tags unit as number one because he believed that would increase his odds of getting drawn, is this true? I don't know how it works for sure, but I tend to think that it doesn't matter which one is first. I tend to think that they put all of the hunters in one pool for each category. Ex: all EA WA Archery Quality applicants are in one pool and they start selecting names one at a time, with each hunter selected, their first choice is checked for availability and if no availability of tag, system moves to second choice and checks for availability. If neither is available, he/she is not selected and system moves on to next hunter drawn until all of EA WA Quality tags are filled. This is my belief. Belief number two, would be that they only select each Permit Hunt at a time, pooling all of the applicants for that specific hunt versus all of ea wa.

The main question is does it really matter which order you chose your permit hunts? I don't think it does so put your favorite first.

Please respond if you have solid insight into this. Thanks.

[elkchaser54]

Every draw is done individually and first and second choice only matter if you get selected for both tags. At least that's my understanding. First or second doesnt affect your odds

[chad24n]

Every draw is done individually and first and second choice only matter if you get selected for both tags. At least that's my understanding. First or second doesnt affect your odds

Simple and clean answer. How did you source this info? WDFW? I can't find it

[KopperBuck]

I thought it’ll give you better odds in the unit with more tags because there’s less chance that all the tags have been taken already when my # is pulled.


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[KopperBuck]

I was thinking about this yesterday though. For example, how does an individual draw a bull moose tag on 2nd choice? I saw a member on here pulled one I believe. I used to think how could a second choice be filled - It’s not like there were leftover tags?


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[chad24n]

I though it’ll give you better odds in the unit with more tags because there’s less chance that all the tags have been taken already. I would definitely put the hardest first and hope that when my number is pulled that unit hasn’t reached capacity yet. My 2nd tag would be 2nd hardest, and so on...


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I don't believe your odds are affected by having one or another choice first... however, with regard to you choosing hardest to draw hunts, I'd call that high risk high reward assuming those hunts are better because they are hard to draw. Personally, I believe having a tag is better than not so I generally put in for 1 hard to draw and 1 much easier to draw with the hopes of being drawn for something and still giving myself a shot at a primo draw.

[chad24n]

Every draw is done individually and first and second choice only matter if you get selected for both tags. At least that's my understanding. First or second doesnt affect your odds

I was thinking about this yesterday though. For example, how does an individual draw a bull moose tag on 2nd choice? I saw a member on here pulled one I believe. I used to think how could a second choice be filled - It’s not like there were leftover tags?


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Elkchasers answer explains your moose scenario, your individual wasn't drawn in first choice but was in second choice... so awarded second. If he was drawn in both OR just the first and not second, he would receive the first.

[ELKBURGER]

Tagging, I think you will be seeing many interpretations on this. I thought that when a hunters name is pulled, the system looks for available permits for 1st choice, if none are left it looks at 2nd choice, and so on...
Those hunters that draw first choice hunts are just the earliest pulled. I am hoping see other perspectives.

[fishngamereaper]

You ever wonder how many times your name is drawn and both your choices are filled already...

[ELKBURGER]

You ever wonder how many times your name is drawn and both your choices are filled already...

Every category, every year.

[elkchaser54]

They don't draw names . Think of it this way ..... a giant raffle drum spinning and you walk up to it with your number of tickets, which is your points squared put them in the drum.  Then they the independent agency in charge of the random drawing will pull X number of tickets out.   If one of those tickets is yours, you win in that drawing . If you win in multiple choices, you get first choice on your list and your second choice tag would go back for someone else to win out of that second raffle drum

[nwhunter]

When you are drawn for a quality tag they look at both your choices before going to the next person in line. If your first choice is available you get it but if its not and your second choice is available you get it. So most people would put the hardest tag to draw that they want as their first choice and easier tag second.. Every state is different. Many states only look at your first choice for going to next applicant so a tougher decision..

[elkchaser54]

It's a random drawing . You're just given more entries.  It's not a preference draw... it's a bonus points draw

A preference draw is when a percentage of tags are given to those with the most points and that's not Washington because some people make it 20 points and never draw. 

[the1rod]

They don't draw names . Think of it this way ..... a giant raffle drum spinning and you walk up to it with your number of tickets, which is your points squared put them in the drum.  Then they the independent agency in charge of the random drawing will pull X number of tickets out.   If one of those tickets is yours, you win in that drawing . If you win in multiple choices, you get first choice on your list and your second choice tag would go back for someone else to win out of that second raffle drum

So the way you explain it here makes it sound like it is an individual drawing for each tag,  and if you are drown in the drawing for your first choice and the drawing for your second choice then you get your first choice tag.  Others are making it it sound like there is only one drawing for all the tags,  and if you are drawn then you get your first choice if it's still available if not then you get your second choice if it's available,  and they just keep drawing from the same drum until all the tags are gone. The difference in these two options seems to be the biggest confusion between everyone,  anyone one have a definite answer one way or the other?

[huntnfmly]

Tagging, I think you will be seeing many interpretations on this. I thought that when a hunters name is pulled, the system looks for available permits for 1st choice, if none are left it looks at 2nd choice, and so on...
Those hunters that draw first choice hunts are just the earliest pulled. I am hoping see other perspectives.

You are correct

[chad24n]

They don't draw names . Think of it this way ..... a giant raffle drum spinning and you walk up to it with your number of tickets, which is your points squared put them in the drum.  Then they the independent agency in charge of the random drawing will pull X number of tickets out.   If one of those tickets is yours, you win in that drawing . If you win in multiple choices, you get first choice on your list and your second choice tag would go back for someone else to win out of that second raffle drum

So the way you explain it here makes it sound like it is an individual drawing for each tag,  and if you are drown in the drawing for your first choice and the drawing for your second choice then you get your first choice tag.  Others are making it it sound like there is only one drawing for all the tags,  and if you are drawn then you get your first choice if it's still available if not then you get your second choice if it's available,  and they just keep drawing from the same drum until all the tags are gone. The difference in these two options seems to be the biggest confusion between everyone,  anyone one have a definite answer one way or the other?

Small differences, either answer though, tells me to put my favorite choice first albeit being harder to draw. Which is all I really need to know. I don't want to put harder draw first if that some how hurts my odds of getting any draw, but this doesn't seem to be the case based on answers to my Q. Why the heck is this info on how the draw really works posted on WDFW somewhere? Shouldn't we know how the draw works if we are paying money to be in it??? Its gotta be available... can anyone find it? I can't. Thanks.

[gee_unit360]

Tagging, I think you will be seeing many interpretations on this. I thought that when a hunters name is pulled, the system looks for available permits for 1st choice, if none are left it looks at 2nd choice, and so on...
Those hunters that draw first choice hunts are just the earliest pulled. I am hoping see other perspectives.

 

[chad24n]

Reread regs, not there and can't find on website. I guess the only way to get to the bottom of how their bonus point system really works is to contact WDFW directly for answers. I'll do just that next week. Thanks guys.

[Bob33]

Washington has a bonus point system, not a preference point system.

If you enter four choices, the odds of getting drawn for one of the four are the same regardless of which order you enter them.
When your entry is evaluated, your first choice is considered first. If there is a permit available for that choice, it will be awarded to you. If there is not a permit available for your first choice, your second choice is evaluated next. The system continues looking at your choices in order until one is available and awarded to, or all your choices are evaluated and none is available: “Not Selected”.

The advice I would follow is put your choices in the order you would to have them. If you want the easiest to draw choice most, enter that as your first choice.  That’s usually not the case, as most applicants want harder to draw choices more than easier to draw choices. Considering how the system works, if you enter an easier to draw choice first and it is not drawn, it's not likely you will draw a choice with lower odds but it is possible.

This information was on the WDFW website until it was recently redone.

[Rainier10]

I was a witness for the draw.

They do a drawing of all quality elk applicants at the same time. Then the make a list of applicant by the lowest number there name came out. 32,000 applicants in order of their draw.

Number gets their first option that they picked. Second person on the list gets their first option all the way down the line until all tags are full.

If you are the 10 person in line but both of you hunts are already full you don’t get anything.

There were 573 permits available so the 11th person May get a tag if one of their two choices is still available.

They don’t do a drawing for quality elk in Mountain View and another drawing for quality elk Dayton and another drawing for quality elk colockum.

[Katmai Guy]

Any idea on how we know that the numbers assigned to hunters apps are randomly determined and not by, lets say, what time or day they bought their tags or how much they spend or something like this?  Trust the WDFW?

[huntnfmly]

I was a witness for the draw.

They do a drawing of all quality elk applicants at the same time. Then the make a list of applicant by the lowest number there name came out. 32,000 applicants in order of their draw.

Number gets their first option that they picked. Second person on the list gets their first option all the way down the line until all tags are full.

If you are the 10 person in line but both of you hunts are already full you don’t get anything.

There were 573 permits available so the 11th person May get a tag if one of their two choices is still available.

They don’t do a drawing for quality elk in Mountain View and another drawing for quality elk Dayton and another drawing for quality elk colockum.

This is exactly how it is done.
It's alot simpler and straight forward than people think

[Tbar]

I was a witness for the draw.

They do a drawing of all quality elk applicants at the same time. Then the make a list of applicant by the lowest number there name came out. 32,000 applicants in order of their draw.

Number gets their first option that they picked. Second person on the list gets their first option all the way down the line until all tags are full.

If you are the 10 person in line but both of you hunts are already full you don’t get anything.

There were 573 permits available so the 11th person May get a tag if one of their two choices is still available.

They don’t do a drawing for quality elk in Mountain View and another drawing for quality elk Dayton and another drawing for quality elk colockum.

Were you a witness this year?

[greenhead_killer]

This is how I thought it worked.

[BULLBLASTER]

Obviously it doesn’t work very well.... if it worked as it should they would have pulled my  number first! 

[Rainier10]

Yes I was a witness.

So everyone putting for quality bull gets entered in the quality bull category.

The people with point get their name in once. The people with ten points get their name in the hat 100 times. All names for quality bull go in a drawing.

The computer then randomly assigns a number to each name. Person with one point gets one number assigned to them. The person with 100 names gets 100 different random numbers assigned to their name. Then they throw out all numbers sssigned to you except your lowest number number.

The person with the lowest/smallest number gets first shot at the permits. In that case of having the lowest number you get your first draw choice and you are done.

 It only takes one name in the hat to randomly come out number one.

I can say that one guy in the room did draw a quality elk tag. Nobody else in the room did.

Out of 32,000 people putting in for quality bull my two points got me 20,000 something on the list of people that didn’t get drawn. I was able to see the guy that came in 574th on the total list. 573 tags he just missed out. My wife was 1,240 on the list of those that didn’t get a tag and my two kids were in between us. Out of all of us my wife had the most points at 15. My kids had 5&7. The one with five actually was closer to getting a permit than the one with 7 points.

They did the draw for quality bull, regular bull, quality mule deer and antlered moose. We verified our names were on each of those drawings.

We left after that and the did the draw for the rest the species and sexes.

There isn’t a way to rig it. It truly is random.

[chad24n]

Yes I was a witness.

So everyone putting for quality bull gets entered in the quality bull category.

The people with point get their name in once. The people with ten points get their name in the hat 100 times. All names for quality bull go in a drawing.

The computer then randomly assigns a number to each name. Person with one point gets one number assigned to them. The person with 100 names gets 100 different random numbers assigned to their name. Then they through out all numbers sssigned to you except your lowest number.

The person with the lowest/smallest number gets first shot at the permits. In that case of having the lowest number you get your first draw choice and you are done.

 It only takes one name in the hat to randomly come out number one.

I can say that one guy in the room did draw a quality elk tag. Nobody else in the room did.

Out of 32,000 people putting in for quality bull my two points got me 20,000 something on the list of people that didn’t get drawn. I was able to see the guy that came in 574th on the total list. 573 tags he just missed out. My wife was 1,240 on the list of those that didn’t get a tag and my two kids were in between us. Out of all of us my wife had the most points at 15. My kids had 5&7. The one with five actually was closer to getting a permit than the one with 7 points.

They did the draw for quality bull, regular bull, quality mule deer and antlered moose. We verified our names were on each of those drawings.

We left after that and the did the draw for the rest the species and sexes.

There isn’t a way to rig it. It truly is random.

How do you become a witness? And where is it held? That sounds interesting.
Thanks for sharing your experience, I really appreciate it!

[kevinlisa06]

I wonder how many people there are that still have not drawn a Bull tag? I know my dad is one of them. Poor guy has been putting in since they started this whole *censored* show.


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[chad24n]

I wonder how many people there are that still have not drawn a Bull tag? I know my dad is one of them. Poor guy has been putting in since they started this whole *censored* show.


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I wouldn't say its a terrible system, at least they were smart enough to avoid the point creep fiasco you get in other states. And, for the most part, I feel like the regulation is needed to keep the herds at respectable levels. Without it, game would be more scarce than it already is. WA just sucks for elk in comparison to other states. Huge population of hunters with smaller pieces of land/game population to hunt = what we've got.

Has he considered OTC in Colorado or Idaho?

[Rainier10]

I contacted them as soon as the new refs were out. I told them I was a hunter Ed instructor and was constantly getting questions about the draw. I wanted to giving accurate information.

First question they had was how available are you on short notice? I am very available and cleared my schedule for the two week window that they thought they may need me.

Second thing they needed was for me to swear to not give any tips on schedule until after results posted. No social media at all. I’m not a Facebook guy but obviously a Huntwa guy. No tip of my hand on social media.

I had already voted on the Huntwa draw date poll before they gave me the window I needed to be available.

On Friday the 7th I called them to make sure they had my number and nothing had changed. They were just busy and just hadn’t called. They asked if I could be in Olympia on Wednesday the 12th. I said yes and then they called the other witnesses to make sure they could be there too. They asked if I wanted to bring someone with me as a second witness. That really short notice so I brought my wife.

She had been to the drawing way back when she was 8 and names really were in a basket that they spun and reached into for your name.

This drawing was far more technically than that but pretty uneventful also.

They have a laptop in the conference. They put the screen up on a giant screen on the wall so we can all see what they are doing on the computer screen.

They click on the “run draw” icon and the computer starts generating the list of successful applicants.

That process actually takes a few minutes. I would have thought it would be immediate but it did take awhile.

Then we started checking for our names on the selected and not selected list.

We were there for two hours just to do the four drawings.

During the checking of the names we actually posted the results of the quality bull winners just to make sure it worked. Luckily we had a winner in the room so we just logged in as him and could see that quality bull showed as an active license. If anyone else got drawn they would have see the same thing in active licenses. If they weren’t drawn they wouldn’t know.

The computer has a ton of stuff to. Show an active license, show your points being reset or a point added and also make purchases available if you drew a sheep, goat, moose or second deer tag.

They said official results would be posted probably by 2pm that day but no social media about it until it happened. It slows the process down if the computer is updating and 220,000 people are trying to log in and check results.

They encouraged to explain the whole process to any even in social media once the results were posted.

I figure after everythung dies down I will start a thread about the whole process and revive the same thread next when the “when will results be posted?” Threads start up again.

It was awesome to be part of it and am open to answer as many questions as there are.

WDFW really wants people to understand the process and know that it isn’t rigged.

Couple things I took away from the experience.

I was shocked at how many people bought applications but didn’t put in for a hunt or points only. Just bought the application. WDFW puts those people in for points only.

I happy to see all the checks and cross checks they use to see how many app were purchased and filed.

The final thing that surprised at how slow the computer is in running the draw. It wasn’t seconds it was minutes for each category.

One other thing I forgot, the 32,000 applicants were for all three weapons. You could be the 30th name drawn but be the first muzzy applicant drawn and actually get the first muzzy tag for colockum bull even if 17 rifle tags were gone.

Some of theses in the top ten names weren’t even units that I would think were great. People drew peaches tags before Dayton tags were filled.

[Katmai Guy]

 Great explanation, thanks.

[BA Mongor]

I wonder if they would tell us what# we were drawn at? It would be interesting to see how close I came to not being drawn.

[xwizard50]

Yes I was a witness.

So everyone putting for quality bull gets entered in the quality bull category.

The people with point get their name in once. The people with ten points get their name in the hat 100 times. All names for quality bull go in a drawing.

The computer then randomly assigns a number to each name. Person with one point gets one number assigned to them. The person with 100 names gets 100 different random numbers assigned to their name. Then they through out all numbers sssigned to you except your highest number.

The person with the lowest/smallest number gets first shot at the permits. In that case of having the lowest number you get your first draw choice and you are done.

 It only takes one name in the hat to randomly come out number one.

I can say that one guy in the room did draw a quality elk tag. Nobody else in the room did.

Out of 32,000 people putting in for quality bull my two points got me 20,000 something on the list of people that didn’t get drawn. I was able to see the guy that came in 574th on the total list. 573 tags he just missed out. My wife was 1,240 on the list of those that didn’t get a tag and my two kids were in between us. Out of all of us my wife had the most points at 15. My kids had 5&7. The one with five actually was closer to getting a permit than the one with 7 points.

They did the draw for quality bull, regular bull, quality mule deer and antlered moose. We verified our names were on each of those drawings.

We left after that and the did the draw for the rest the species and sexes.

There isn’t a way to rig it. It truly is random.

I though they kept your lowest number assigned to an individual and discarded all the rest, at least that’s what I read.

[bigdub257]

Yes I was a witness.

So everyone putting for quality bull gets entered in the quality bull category.

The people with point get their name in once. The people with ten points get their name in the hat 100 times. All names for quality bull go in a drawing.

The computer then randomly assigns a number to each name. Person with one point gets one number assigned to them. The person with 100 names gets 100 different random numbers assigned to their name. Then they through out all numbers sssigned to you except your highest number. Lowest???

The person with the lowest/smallest number gets first shot at the permits. In that case of having the lowest number you get your first draw choice and you are done.

 It only takes one name in the hat to randomly come out number one.

I can say that one guy in the room did draw a quality elk tag. Nobody else in the room did.

Out of 32,000 people putting in for quality bull my two points got me 20,000 something on the list of people that didn’t get drawn. I was able to see the guy that came in 574th on the total list. 573 tags he just missed out. My wife was 1,240 on the list of those that didn’t get a tag and my two kids were in between us. Out of all of us my wife had the most points at 15. My kids had 5&7. The one with five actually was closer to getting a permit than the one with 7 points.

They did the draw for quality bull, regular bull, quality mule deer and antlered moose. We verified our names were on each of those drawings.

We left after that and the did the draw for the rest the species and sexes.

There isn’t a way to rig it. It truly is random.

[Rainier10]

Yes I was a witness.

So everyone putting for quality bull gets entered in the quality bull category.

The people with point get their name in once. The people with ten points get their name in the hat 100 times. All names for quality bull go in a drawing.

The computer then randomly assigns a number to each name. Person with one point gets one number assigned to them. The person with 100 names gets 100 different random numbers assigned to their name. Then they throw out all numbers assigned to you except your lowest number.

The person with the lowest/smallest number gets first shot at the permits. In that case of having the lowest number you get your first draw choice and you are done.

 It only takes one name in the hat to randomly come out number one.

I can say that one guy in the room did draw a quality elk tag. Nobody else in the room did.

Out of 32,000 people putting in for quality bull my two points got me 20,000 something on the list of people that didn’t get drawn. I was able to see the guy that came in 574th on the total list. 573 tags he just missed out. My wife was 1,240 on the list of those that didn’t get a tag and my two kids were in between us. Out of all of us my wife had the most points at 15. My kids had 5&7. The one with five actually was closer to getting a permit than the one with 7 points.

They did the draw for quality bull, regular bull, quality mule deer and antlered moose. We verified our names were on each of those drawings.

We left after that and the did the draw for the rest the species and sexes.

There isn’t a way to rig it. It truly is random.

I though they kept your lowest number assigned to an individual and discarded all the rest, at least that’s what I read.

yes it is the lowest number that gets you highest or closest to the first pick.