Raffle permit numbers.

[Pegasus]

I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers.  It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.

Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information.

Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from  certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.

Life isnt fair dude.  I cant afford to dump that kind of money either, hell theres lots of nice things id like but cant afford, but i dont begrudge those that can.  Buy 5 tickets if thats all you can afford and hope for the best.  its a raffle, youre entitled to nothing.

Thanks for the advice. I don't begrudge anyone for buying lots of tickets in the raffle but I want a fair raffle where everyone has the same info at the same time. When you withhold the info from everyone except for a select few, especially the for big buyers, you are screwing the rest of the hunter population.
Life may not be fair but raffles under the law have to be fair for ALL.

[Pegasus]

If they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all.

Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.

We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are.  No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept.

As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo.

Two lines of evidence that do not support your belief that WDFW generates more revenue by posting updated ticket sales:
1. People whining their purchases have not been reflected on the ticket sales page quickly enough - a clear and obvious attempt of "whales" to discourage others from purchasing tickets. 
2. Virtually no other Western State or private company (e.g., huntin fool) offers real time updates of raffle ticket sales.

Your suggestion that no "whales" will participate if they don't know the odds is interesting.  Are you suggesting Wyoming, Idaho, Montana etc. don't have "whales" buying loads of raffle tickets? I unequivocally know that to be a false assertion.

Good grief. I'm seriously biting my tongue here.

You need to take a remedial Logic course idahohunter.  Neither of your points are evidence or supportive of your opinion that not updating ticket sales would somehow generate more revenue for the department. 

Let's paint this picture differently to try and help you to understand. Let's use the lottery.  MegaMillions Powerball or whatever it's called.

So, take a moment and pause from desperately wanting to be right (or make me appear to be wrong, same difference  ) and reflect upon why the lotteries display the increasing value of a given lottery.

Why is it that the stores and machines that sell them advertise the updated amount you could win if you played?

It's been long since proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the larger the lottery pool, the more people will buy more lottery tickets.  Limited transparency into potential payout, and odds of winning, dramatically diminishes participation.

When the lottery is a "paltry" $15 million, very few people bother playing.  When it builds up to $800 million, LOTS of people play that otherwise wouldn't even remotely consider wasting a buck or two on a lottery ticket. Once that lottery gets up to hundreds of millions, playing at that level is a lark.  As a student of human nature, I can tell you that it's a silly phenomenon because either amount would dramatically alter the lives of the winner.  Accordingly, why don't people play all the time?  Well, due to some oddities of human perception, they are more drawn to the prospects of a potentially larger payout even though they know the odds of winning either are approximately zero.

Now, let's shift gears to raffles for something with a fixed payout value. Fixed in the sense that there is an essentially known value of a given item and there is a ceiling on the value of the item. It's not like a lottery that just gets bigger if no one wins. When it comes to the type of raffles like the ones we are discussing, far fewer people with essentially zero chance of winning will still play but they'll only buy a relatively small number of tickets per person.  The vast majority will only buy one.  That's just the way these things go. That number would change dramatically if it cost $50,000,000 to go on a sheep hunt and the winning raffle ticket was transferable to a willing buyer or redeemable in cash. Understandably, far more people would be willing to take a chance and buy a ticket worth $50MM even if they weren't hunters. But, sheep hunts just don't come anywhere near that coast and there's only a few people - relatively speaking in a state of 7.5MM people, that want to hunt sheep anyway.  In fact, it's relatively easy to figure out since all one has to do is look up the number of people that put in for special permit applications, or even raffle tags for that matter. It's a comparatively small percentage of the population. Again, the vast majority of whom, if historical data is any indication will just buy one ticket, even though they could theoretically buy an unlimited quantity.

But, if there is some perceived chance at increasing their odds of winning a fixed value raffle, some of the people will carefully weigh the "sure thing" cost of just buying the hunt vs. the risk of a gambling loss.  Some will just forego playing, and save up and pay for the hunt outright. Others will have the financial wherewithal to lay down a pile of cash to gain better odds of winning, but they'll only do so up to a point that makes sense to them on a single throw or over a year over year basis. For example, if someone buys 33% percent of the expected number of raffle tickets sold every year, odds are that they'll get it once every three years (with no guarantee of course).  They'll likely end up paying a third of the cost, two thirds of the cost or the full cost for a guided hunt.  If it's a third...great. If it's two-thirds...nice discount.  Full boat...they wanted to go sheep hunting anyway.  If their luck totally sucked, they disposable income at that level is such that they can scrape up something and just go. Bottome line is they are just playing the odds with disposable income that they would nototherwise spend at all if they didn't know the odds. The lower the understanding of what the odds are, the lower the interest level in playing.  The lower the interest level in playing, the lower amount of disposable income they are going to play with.  The lower amount they play with, the lower the revenue generated by the raffle.

It's just that simple.

Will you testify in a court of law as to the veracity of all of your posts about the raffle you have posted previously? "It is just that simple"...YES or NO?

[Bushcraft]

The WDFW has no place on the raffle info to call in and get current numbers. It is by design and to favor whales.  Will you testify in court?

C'mon Bushcraft...step up and be a man. Testify and we can fix this crooked system. Capiche?

Sigh...

Have you ever called into WDFW's main line?  For that matter, have you ever called ANY large entity's main number and been prompted to type in a number that most corresponds to your reason for you calling, and then been routed, and then routed, etc., until you got to someone that could help you? (think about calling your bank for example)  If so, perhaps you noted that sometimes whoever answers the phone and helps you (or not) are just cubicle gophers in a massive outsourced call center and they don't have a dedicated extension (or claim they don't).  Other times, they do...and if they are helpful and you might want to skip all the rigmarole and get the answer to future questions faster, you can write that down (or remember it) so you can request to be immediately routed to that person if you call in again.  Sometimes there are more than one person.

Are you beginning to get the picture?  If not, is there some other way I make this easier for you to understand?

Really?      You said: " I was driving down the road headed for a backcountry goat counting trip in the Goat Rocks and literally had a last minute telephone conversation with my INTERNAL WDFW CONTACT on the other end of the line before that person left for the weekend (who BTW was also frustrated that Licensing wasn't automatically releasing/updating that information in an orderly manner).  Had I not known the most up to date figures had bumped up considerably during the period of time that the numbers went unreported, I wouldn't have bought any more tickets from the nice lady working at the WDFW kiosk in Packwood's grocery store."

Stop with the deflection. WILL YOU TESTIFY to what you have posted here?

Alright, you've earned a bit of name calling. Pegasus, you're quite possibly dumber than a box of rocks.

What part of anyone can call in and anyone can remember or write down the number of the extension of the person that can pull up that information do you not understand?

I was anyone. I called in. I wrote down the number of the extension of the person that knew how to look up that information. That person was my "internal contact".    I am not the only anyone that has done it or can do it. Got it yet? Is it getting through your thick skull? 

For chrissakes...call the main number tomorrow and try it for yourself.

Here's what will happen. If they haven't already updated the information online, and direct you to where you can find that on their website, they'll hunt down the information and give it to you.  If enough people call in wondering how many tickets are sold, they'll pressure others to post the information so they don't have to spend their day answering the same question.

EDIT TO ADD:
The only thing that's remotely unfair is that we taxpayers have lazy, incompetent people (not)working for us in our state and federal agencies that are almost impossible to fire.  They could, and should, have the numbers of raffle tickets sold updated instantly online. Which was my initial gripe and warning a few years ago.

[Pegasus]

How many people here have complained that the WDFW is NOT updating the numbers in a timely manner? Many. Did the raffle info pages tell them to call a number or give an email? Nope. Did anyone here post that they had the numbers before the update? Nope. You have posted that you participated knowingly in getting info from an "inside" source before you placed your bet that was NOT disclosed to everyone. How is that fair for the general public?I guarantee you the WDFW by morning if not already will be notifying employees not to release info to a select group of people such as yourself about the numbers that are not posted for all to see. Why? Because it exposes the raffles for being crooked and rigged.

[Pegasus]

"The only thing that's remotely unfair is that we taxpayers have lazy, incompetent people (not)working for us in our state and federal agencies that are almost impossible to fire.  They could, and should, have the numbers of raffle tickets sold updated instantly online. Which was my initial gripe and warning a few years ago."

I agree that the numbers should be posted almost instantaneously but let us not blame people for not posting the numbers as incompetent. I am sure the the raffle numbers are updated and viewed daily by the higher-ups at the WDFW. Not releasing the numbers for two weeks after the permit draws notifications is not an accident IMHO.

If you call a company and some clerk gives you info that allows you to make an investment based on non-disclosed info you get to go to jail. Seems like someone got sentenced to 4 years today for selling on non-public info. Giving out non-public info to a select few on a raffle that increases their odds does not sound any different. Wide dissemination is the key...not buddies at the WDFW for a few.

[Bushcraft]

How many people here have complained that the WDFW is NOT updating the numbers in a timely manner? Many. Did the raffle info pages tell them to call a number or give an email? Nope. Did anyone here post that they had the numbers before the update? Nope. You have posted that you participated knowingly in getting info from an "inside" source before you placed your bet that was NOT disclosed to everyone. How is that fair for the general public?I guarantee you the WDFW by morning if not already will be notifying employees not to release info to a select group of people such as yourself about the numbers that are not posted for all to see. Why? Because it exposes the raffles for being crooked and rigged.

"The only thing that's remotely unfair is that we taxpayers have lazy, incompetent people (not)working for us in our state and federal agencies that are almost impossible to fire.  They could, and should, have the numbers of raffle tickets sold updated instantly online. Which was my initial gripe and warning a few years ago."

I agree that the numbers should be posted almost instantaneously but let us not blame people for not posting the numbers as incompetent. I am sure the the raffle numbers are updated and viewed daily by the higher-ups at the WDFW. Not releasing the numbers for two weeks after the permit draws notifications is not an accident IMHO.

If you call a company and some clerk gives you info that allows you to make an investment based on non-disclosed info you get to go to jail. Seems like someone got sentenced to 4 years today for selling on non-public info. Giving out non-public info to a select few on a raffle that increases their odds does not sound any different. Wide dissemination is the key...not buddies at the WDFW for a few.

 

Wanna buy some rocks to add to your box? 

[Rainier10]

I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers.  It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.

Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information.

Didnt you say that you would NOT have spent an additional 6k if you hadnt known the numbers? Meaning knowing updated numbers INCREASED ticket sales, which is the opposite of what everybody is crying about?  sounds to me like knowing updated numbers increased funding for wildlife 

you are confusing me with bushcraft. I was just saying after seeing all the debate last week about numbers not being posted I emailed and asked why. They said that they would be updated and gave me the numbers of tickets sold to three of the categories I was interested in.

Pretty sure bushcraft and myself aren’t the only ones on here to contact WDFW and ask why results haven’t been updated. I think you may have at some point as well.

[Rainier10]

I’m not sure what the big deal is about WDFW giving out information that is asked for.

I’ve asked about hunter density and harvest numbers for specific GMU’s so I could lobby for certain seasons in those GMU’s. Is that an issue? Would it be better if WDFW kept all the information secret?

They are seriously about being as transparent and thorough at the same time.

I don’t know all the details about the raffles but I assume they are similar to the general draw I was a witness for. They check sales numbers to applications filled out online and not filled out, then they screen shot each report to show that every way you look at the numbers they add up so if anybody questions it they can show that it all jives.

I’m guessing that same thing happens with raffle sales to make sure all numbers add up then they update the site.

They have updated every week for the last 6 up until last Monday and then they updated this Monday.

Did anyone stop to think that maybe one of the people in the process was out sick, on vacation or working on something else that kept them from updating last week? They are human, they do get sick, take vacation or have other stuff come up.

This Monday results were posted just like they have been for the 6 weeks before last week.  No need to have a grand jury investigate foul play.

[Bushcraft]

I’m not sure what the big deal is about WDFW giving out information that is asked for.

I’ve asked about hunter density and harvest numbers for specific GMU’s so I could lobby for certain seasons in those GMU’s. Is that an issue? Would it be better if WDFW kept all the information secret?

They are seriously about being as transparent and thorough at the same time.

I don’t know all the details about the raffles but I assume they are similar to the general draw I was a witness for. They check sales numbers to applications filled out online and not filled out, then they screen shot each report to show that every way you look at the numbers they add up so if anybody questions it they can show that it all jives.

I’m guessing that same thing happens with raffle sales to make sure all numbers add up then they update the site.

They have updated every week for the last 6 up until last Monday and then they updated this Monday.

Did anyone stop to think that maybe one of the people in the process was out sick, on vacation or working on something else that kept them from updating last week? They are human, they do get sick, take vacation or have other stuff come up.

This Monday results were posted just like they have been for the 6 weeks before last week.  No need to have a grand jury investigate foul play.

   Exactly.

[idahohuntr]

If they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all.

Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.

We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are.  No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept.

As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo.

Two lines of evidence that do not support your belief that WDFW generates more revenue by posting updated ticket sales:
1. People whining their purchases have not been reflected on the ticket sales page quickly enough - a clear and obvious attempt of "whales" to discourage others from purchasing tickets. 
2. Virtually no other Western State or private company (e.g., huntin fool) offers real time updates of raffle ticket sales.

Your suggestion that no "whales" will participate if they don't know the odds is interesting.  Are you suggesting Wyoming, Idaho, Montana etc. don't have "whales" buying loads of raffle tickets? I unequivocally know that to be a false assertion.

Good grief. I'm seriously biting my tongue here.

You need to take a remedial Logic course idahohunter.  Neither of your points are evidence or supportive of your opinion that not updating ticket sales would somehow generate more revenue for the department. 

Let's paint this picture differently to try and help you to understand. Let's use the lottery.  MegaMillions Powerball or whatever it's called.

So, take a moment and pause from desperately wanting to be right (or make me appear to be wrong, same difference  ) and reflect upon why the lotteries display the increasing value of a given lottery.

Why is it that the stores and machines that sell them advertise the updated amount you could win if you played?

It's been long since proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the larger the lottery pool, the more people will buy more lottery tickets.  Limited transparency into potential payout, and odds of winning, dramatically diminishes participation.

When the lottery is a "paltry" $15 million, very few people bother playing.  When it builds up to $800 million, LOTS of people play that otherwise wouldn't even remotely consider wasting a buck or two on a lottery ticket. Once that lottery gets up to hundreds of millions, playing at that level is a lark.  As a student of human nature, I can tell you that it's a silly phenomenon because either amount would dramatically alter the lives of the winner.  Accordingly, why don't people play all the time?  Well, due to some oddities of human perception, they are more drawn to the prospects of a potentially larger payout even though they know the odds of winning either are approximately zero.

Now, let's shift gears to raffles for something with a fixed payout value. Fixed in the sense that there is an essentially known value of a given item and there is a ceiling on the value of the item. It's not like a lottery that just gets bigger if no one wins. When it comes to the type of raffles like the ones we are discussing, far fewer people with essentially zero chance of winning will still play but they'll only buy a relatively small number of tickets per person.  The vast majority will only buy one.  That's just the way these things go. That number would change dramatically if it cost $50,000,000 to go on a sheep hunt and the winning raffle ticket was transferable to a willing buyer or redeemable in cash. Understandably, far more people would be willing to take a chance and buy a ticket worth $50MM even if they weren't hunters. But, sheep hunts just don't come anywhere near that coast and there's only a few people - relatively speaking in a state of 7.5MM people, that want to hunt sheep anyway.  In fact, it's relatively easy to figure out since all one has to do is look up the number of people that put in for special permit applications, or even raffle tags for that matter. It's a comparatively small percentage of the population. Again, the vast majority of whom, if historical data is any indication will just buy one ticket, even though they could theoretically buy an unlimited quantity.

But, if there is some perceived chance at increasing their odds of winning a fixed value raffle, some of the people will carefully weigh the "sure thing" cost of just buying the hunt vs. the risk of a gambling loss.  Some will just forego playing, and save up and pay for the hunt outright. Others will have the financial wherewithal to lay down a pile of cash to gain better odds of winning, but they'll only do so up to a point that makes sense to them on a single throw or over a year over year basis. For example, if someone buys 33% percent of the expected number of raffle tickets sold every year, odds are that they'll get it once every three years (with no guarantee of course).  They'll likely end up paying a third of the cost, two thirds of the cost or the full cost for a guided hunt.  If it's a third...great. If it's two-thirds...nice discount.  Full boat...they wanted to go sheep hunting anyway.  If their luck totally sucked, they disposable income at that level is such that they can scrape up something and just go. Bottome line is they are just playing the odds with disposable income that they would nototherwise spend at all if they didn't know the odds. The lower the understanding of what the odds are, the lower the interest level in playing.  The lower the interest level in playing, the lower amount of disposable income they are going to play with.  The lower amount they play with, the lower the revenue generated by the raffle.

It's just that simple.

That's a lot of rambling for a simple "explanation".  There is a reason no other western state or private companies provide real time draw odds on their wildlife/hunt raffles.  But even if I try to follow your "logic" trail do you really believe there are not big spenders in Wyoming, Idaho, Montana raffles...which is your direct assertion since those states do not provide real time odds. Perhaps the more clear example: why do you suppose a private company founded on the basis of providing draw odds to its members (huntin fool) NEVER provides the draw odds of their various raffle hunts?  Hmmmm...a profit motivated private company doesn't share odds on their raffles and they've been doing them for decades...don't worry, business acumen, finance, law etc. are clearly not your strong suits.  I'm sure you have other talents though.   

[Bushcraft]

That's a lot of rambling for a simple "explanation".  There is a reason no other western state or private companies provide real time draw odds on their wildlife/hunt raffles.  But even if I try to follow your "logic" trail do you really believe there are not big spenders in Wyoming, Idaho, Montana raffles...which is your direct assertion since those states do not provide real time odds. Perhaps the more clear example: why do you suppose a private company founded on the basis of providing draw odds to its members (huntin fool) NEVER provides the draw odds of their various raffle hunts?  Hmmmm...a profit motivated private company doesn't share odds on their raffles and they've been doing them for decades...don't worry, business acumen, finance, law etc. are clearly not your strong suits.  I'm sure you have other talents though.   

 

Good Lord...Somewhere a bag of hammers is missing a hammer.

Huntin Fool runs a SWEEPSTAKES not a RAFFLE.

There's a massive legal difference between the two. Do you not understand the difference there Mr. Legal Beagle???

There is no purchase necessary to win a sweepstakes. A purchase does not increase the chances of winning in a sweepstakes. Like any game of chance the odds of winning a sweepstakes depends on the total number of eligible entries received. Any yahoo can print up a pile of 3.5"x5" and mail 'em in for the cost of first class postage.

No one in his right mind is going to lay down a boatload to cash on a sweepstakes when an unknown quantity of participants can participate many times for free. Catch a clue dude!

They don't need to show the odds because everyone's odds in a sweepstakes, regardless of how many entries one purchases or submits, are practically/essentially...zero. 

But by all means idahohunter, go ahead and buy a maximum number of of 30 Platinum, 30 Gold and 30 Silver entries per day from Huntin Fool if you think your odds of playing that game are better than our known-odds raffle.  I'm quite certain they'd be happy to take your money.

[idahohuntr]

 
I think you should stick to pedaling frivolous lawsuits. 

If posting odds was a money maker HF would do it...so would every other western state.  End of discussion.

[Mtnwalker]

I think you should stick to pedaling frivolous lawsuits. 

If posting odds was a money maker HF would do it...so would every other western state.  End of discussion.

Thank god.

[jackelope]

@Pegasus  I don't have a dog in this fight, but there's no "insider info" here. Email WDFW and ask them for updated raffle sale #'s....that's all you gotta do.  No offense to @Bushcraft  but his use of the "internal contact" or whatever he said was probably a little fancier sounding than it needed to be. Any joe shmo off the street can reach out to WDFW and ask whebever they want to, whether they bought no tickets or 10,000 tickets.

I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers.  It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.

Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information.

Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from  certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.

Nowhere on WDFW's website have I ever seen it mentioned to do lots of things that are doable. I email biologists every year for info on areas I plan to hunt. I've never seen anywhere where it says to do that. They do make it clear that the primary goal of the program is to generate revenue, not to be fair to the average joe(me) or anything else for that matter. That is here:

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/special-hunts/auction-raffle-faq

Since the inception of the program in 1994, the primary objective of auction and raffle permits has been to generate revenue specifically for the management of the hunted species. As such, specific code was adopted in RCW 77.32.530 and WACs 232-28-290 and 232-28-292. These codes established the fiscal requirements for auction and raffle funds and describe structure of auction and raffle procedures and hunting opportunities.



@Pegasus  have you ever purchased a raffle ticket?

[Bushcraft]

I think you should stick to pedaling frivolous lawsuits. 

If posting odds was a money maker HF would do it...so would every other western state.  End of discussion.

End of discussion?   

Carry on then. I'm happy to not have to repeatedly illustrate that you don't know what you don't know.