Free: Contests & Raffles.
Quote from: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 11:19:49 PMQuote from: Rainier10 on July 01, 2019, 11:09:20 PMI will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers. It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.Life isnt fair dude. I cant afford to dump that kind of money either, hell theres lots of nice things id like but cant afford, but i dont begrudge those that can. Buy 5 tickets if thats all you can afford and hope for the best. its a raffle, youre entitled to nothing.
Quote from: Rainier10 on July 01, 2019, 11:09:20 PMI will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers. It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. Nice try. Where on the raffle site does the game dept reveal to the general public that you can obtain current numbers on the raffles by either emailing or calling? How many raffle participants are aware that they are doing this for the wealthy? Yes you are included in that category. I know...its relative but most hunters can't spent $16,000 bucks on a raffle for goats like some can at a whim with special "inside info" from certain people at the WDFW. Save your emails please.
I will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers. It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information.
Quote from: idahohuntr on July 01, 2019, 09:28:50 PMQuote from: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 08:46:17 PMQuote from: idahohuntr on July 01, 2019, 08:29:37 PMIf they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all. Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are. No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept. As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo. Two lines of evidence that do not support your belief that WDFW generates more revenue by posting updated ticket sales:1. People whining their purchases have not been reflected on the ticket sales page quickly enough - a clear and obvious attempt of "whales" to discourage others from purchasing tickets. 2. Virtually no other Western State or private company (e.g., huntin fool) offers real time updates of raffle ticket sales.Your suggestion that no "whales" will participate if they don't know the odds is interesting. Are you suggesting Wyoming, Idaho, Montana etc. don't have "whales" buying loads of raffle tickets? I unequivocally know that to be a false assertion.Good grief. I'm seriously biting my tongue here.You need to take a remedial Logic course idahohunter. Neither of your points are evidence or supportive of your opinion that not updating ticket sales would somehow generate more revenue for the department. Let's paint this picture differently to try and help you to understand. Let's use the lottery. MegaMillions Powerball or whatever it's called.So, take a moment and pause from desperately wanting to be right (or make me appear to be wrong, same difference ) and reflect upon why the lotteries display the increasing value of a given lottery.Why is it that the stores and machines that sell them advertise the updated amount you could win if you played?It's been long since proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the larger the lottery pool, the more people will buy more lottery tickets. Limited transparency into potential payout, and odds of winning, dramatically diminishes participation.When the lottery is a "paltry" $15 million, very few people bother playing. When it builds up to $800 million, LOTS of people play that otherwise wouldn't even remotely consider wasting a buck or two on a lottery ticket. Once that lottery gets up to hundreds of millions, playing at that level is a lark. As a student of human nature, I can tell you that it's a silly phenomenon because either amount would dramatically alter the lives of the winner. Accordingly, why don't people play all the time? Well, due to some oddities of human perception, they are more drawn to the prospects of a potentially larger payout even though they know the odds of winning either are approximately zero.Now, let's shift gears to raffles for something with a fixed payout value. Fixed in the sense that there is an essentially known value of a given item and there is a ceiling on the value of the item. It's not like a lottery that just gets bigger if no one wins. When it comes to the type of raffles like the ones we are discussing, far fewer people with essentially zero chance of winning will still play but they'll only buy a relatively small number of tickets per person. The vast majority will only buy one. That's just the way these things go. That number would change dramatically if it cost $50,000,000 to go on a sheep hunt and the winning raffle ticket was transferable to a willing buyer or redeemable in cash. Understandably, far more people would be willing to take a chance and buy a ticket worth $50MM even if they weren't hunters. But, sheep hunts just don't come anywhere near that coast and there's only a few people - relatively speaking in a state of 7.5MM people, that want to hunt sheep anyway. In fact, it's relatively easy to figure out since all one has to do is look up the number of people that put in for special permit applications, or even raffle tags for that matter. It's a comparatively small percentage of the population. Again, the vast majority of whom, if historical data is any indication will just buy one ticket, even though they could theoretically buy an unlimited quantity.But, if there is some perceived chance at increasing their odds of winning a fixed value raffle, some of the people will carefully weigh the "sure thing" cost of just buying the hunt vs. the risk of a gambling loss. Some will just forego playing, and save up and pay for the hunt outright. Others will have the financial wherewithal to lay down a pile of cash to gain better odds of winning, but they'll only do so up to a point that makes sense to them on a single throw or over a year over year basis. For example, if someone buys 33% percent of the expected number of raffle tickets sold every year, odds are that they'll get it once every three years (with no guarantee of course). They'll likely end up paying a third of the cost, two thirds of the cost or the full cost for a guided hunt. If it's a third...great. If it's two-thirds...nice discount. Full boat...they wanted to go sheep hunting anyway. If their luck totally sucked, they disposable income at that level is such that they can scrape up something and just go. Bottome line is they are just playing the odds with disposable income that they would nototherwise spend at all if they didn't know the odds. The lower the understanding of what the odds are, the lower the interest level in playing. The lower the interest level in playing, the lower amount of disposable income they are going to play with. The lower amount they play with, the lower the revenue generated by the raffle.It's just that simple.
Quote from: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 08:46:17 PMQuote from: idahohuntr on July 01, 2019, 08:29:37 PMIf they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all. Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are. No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept. As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo. Two lines of evidence that do not support your belief that WDFW generates more revenue by posting updated ticket sales:1. People whining their purchases have not been reflected on the ticket sales page quickly enough - a clear and obvious attempt of "whales" to discourage others from purchasing tickets. 2. Virtually no other Western State or private company (e.g., huntin fool) offers real time updates of raffle ticket sales.Your suggestion that no "whales" will participate if they don't know the odds is interesting. Are you suggesting Wyoming, Idaho, Montana etc. don't have "whales" buying loads of raffle tickets? I unequivocally know that to be a false assertion.
Quote from: idahohuntr on July 01, 2019, 08:29:37 PMIf they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all. Wrong, on both accounts. At least you're consistent.We already went through the basic math relating to the need to update the numbers. "Whales" or "Mr. Bigs" aren't going to play if they don't know what the odds are. No odds, no whales...substantially less revenue. Not sure why you're having difficulty with the straightforward concept. As to "not at all" posting the number of tickets purchased (that's how you wrote it), WDFW is a public agency and they work for us. Every bleeping dime and action is accountable and should be absolutely transparent, both on the inflows and outflows. To suggest otherwise is delving into big-government-knows-best-pinko-commie territory amigo.
If they were smart AND good stewards of the publics resources they would not update the numbers until after the draw is complete...or not at all.
Quote from: Bushcraft on July 01, 2019, 09:58:46 PMQuote from: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 09:24:55 PMThe WDFW has no place on the raffle info to call in and get current numbers. It is by design and to favor whales. Will you testify in court?Quote from: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 09:41:53 PMC'mon Bushcraft...step up and be a man. Testify and we can fix this crooked system. Capiche?Sigh...Have you ever called into WDFW's main line? For that matter, have you ever called ANY large entity's main number and been prompted to type in a number that most corresponds to your reason for you calling, and then been routed, and then routed, etc., until you got to someone that could help you? (think about calling your bank for example) If so, perhaps you noted that sometimes whoever answers the phone and helps you (or not) are just cubicle gophers in a massive outsourced call center and they don't have a dedicated extension (or claim they don't). Other times, they do...and if they are helpful and you might want to skip all the rigmarole and get the answer to future questions faster, you can write that down (or remember it) so you can request to be immediately routed to that person if you call in again. Sometimes there are more than one person.Are you beginning to get the picture? If not, is there some other way I make this easier for you to understand?Really? You said: " I was driving down the road headed for a backcountry goat counting trip in the Goat Rocks and literally had a last minute telephone conversation with my INTERNAL WDFW CONTACT on the other end of the line before that person left for the weekend (who BTW was also frustrated that Licensing wasn't automatically releasing/updating that information in an orderly manner). Had I not known the most up to date figures had bumped up considerably during the period of time that the numbers went unreported, I wouldn't have bought any more tickets from the nice lady working at the WDFW kiosk in Packwood's grocery store."Stop with the deflection. WILL YOU TESTIFY to what you have posted here?
Quote from: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 09:24:55 PMThe WDFW has no place on the raffle info to call in and get current numbers. It is by design and to favor whales. Will you testify in court?Quote from: Pegasus on July 01, 2019, 09:41:53 PMC'mon Bushcraft...step up and be a man. Testify and we can fix this crooked system. Capiche?Sigh...Have you ever called into WDFW's main line? For that matter, have you ever called ANY large entity's main number and been prompted to type in a number that most corresponds to your reason for you calling, and then been routed, and then routed, etc., until you got to someone that could help you? (think about calling your bank for example) If so, perhaps you noted that sometimes whoever answers the phone and helps you (or not) are just cubicle gophers in a massive outsourced call center and they don't have a dedicated extension (or claim they don't). Other times, they do...and if they are helpful and you might want to skip all the rigmarole and get the answer to future questions faster, you can write that down (or remember it) so you can request to be immediately routed to that person if you call in again. Sometimes there are more than one person.Are you beginning to get the picture? If not, is there some other way I make this easier for you to understand?
The WDFW has no place on the raffle info to call in and get current numbers. It is by design and to favor whales. Will you testify in court?
C'mon Bushcraft...step up and be a man. Testify and we can fix this crooked system. Capiche?
How many people here have complained that the WDFW is NOT updating the numbers in a timely manner? Many. Did the raffle info pages tell them to call a number or give an email? Nope. Did anyone here post that they had the numbers before the update? Nope. You have posted that you participated knowingly in getting info from an "inside" source before you placed your bet that was NOT disclosed to everyone. How is that fair for the general public?I guarantee you the WDFW by morning if not already will be notifying employees not to release info to a select group of people such as yourself about the numbers that are not posted for all to see. Why? Because it exposes the raffles for being crooked and rigged.
"The only thing that's remotely unfair is that we taxpayers have lazy, incompetent people (not)working for us in our state and federal agencies that are almost impossible to fire. They could, and should, have the numbers of raffle tickets sold updated instantly online. Which was my initial gripe and warning a few years ago."I agree that the numbers should be posted almost instantaneously but let us not blame people for not posting the numbers as incompetent. I am sure the the raffle numbers are updated and viewed daily by the higher-ups at the WDFW. Not releasing the numbers for two weeks after the permit draws notifications is not an accident IMHO.If you call a company and some clerk gives you info that allows you to make an investment based on non-disclosed info you get to go to jail. Seems like someone got sentenced to 4 years today for selling on non-public info. Giving out non-public info to a select few on a raffle that increases their odds does not sound any different. Wide dissemination is the key...not buddies at the WDFW for a few.
Quote from: Rainier10 on July 01, 2019, 11:09:20 PMI will testify that I knew last weeks ticket sales. I sent an email to my internal contact at WDFW, wildthing@dfw.wa.gov and two hours later I got a reply with the numbers. It never entered my mind that it might be seen as scandalous to reach out to them and ask a question. I just figured I buy a license every year and that pays their salary they should answer a question if asked. I didn’t even have to fill out the standard form public request for information.Again if you need me to testify to that I have no problem. I still have the email exchange if needed. Not sure what me testifying will prove, maybe that the WDFW does want us to have the information. Didnt you say that you would NOT have spent an additional 6k if you hadnt known the numbers? Meaning knowing updated numbers INCREASED ticket sales, which is the opposite of what everybody is crying about? sounds to me like knowing updated numbers increased funding for wildlife
I’m not sure what the big deal is about WDFW giving out information that is asked for.I’ve asked about hunter density and harvest numbers for specific GMU’s so I could lobby for certain seasons in those GMU’s. Is that an issue? Would it be better if WDFW kept all the information secret?They are seriously about being as transparent and thorough at the same time.I don’t know all the details about the raffles but I assume they are similar to the general draw I was a witness for. They check sales numbers to applications filled out online and not filled out, then they screen shot each report to show that every way you look at the numbers they add up so if anybody questions it they can show that it all jives.I’m guessing that same thing happens with raffle sales to make sure all numbers add up then they update the site.They have updated every week for the last 6 up until last Monday and then they updated this Monday.Did anyone stop to think that maybe one of the people in the process was out sick, on vacation or working on something else that kept them from updating last week? They are human, they do get sick, take vacation or have other stuff come up.This Monday results were posted just like they have been for the 6 weeks before last week. No need to have a grand jury investigate foul play.
That's a lot of rambling for a simple "explanation". There is a reason no other western state or private companies provide real time draw odds on their wildlife/hunt raffles. But even if I try to follow your "logic" trail do you really believe there are not big spenders in Wyoming, Idaho, Montana raffles...which is your direct assertion since those states do not provide real time odds. Perhaps the more clear example: why do you suppose a private company founded on the basis of providing draw odds to its members (huntin fool) NEVER provides the draw odds of their various raffle hunts? Hmmmm...a profit motivated private company doesn't share odds on their raffles and they've been doing them for decades...don't worry, business acumen, finance, law etc. are clearly not your strong suits. I'm sure you have other talents though.
I think you should stick to pedaling frivolous lawsuits. If posting odds was a money maker HF would do it...so would every other western state. End of discussion.