Deer Antler Point Regs

[idaho guy]

Go to a ranch where they specialize in quality deer and you will see they protect the large racked bucks and encourage hunters to cull out the bucks with "inferior" antler genes.   I honestly believe that APRs eventually lead to deer with less points. You are putting all the pressure on the animals with the traits you are trying to encourage. And leaving the bucks with the traits you don't want to do the breeding.  Back Asswards.

On the ranches that specialize in growing huge bucks, they know that the really special bucks start showing it with their first set of antlers and instead of spikes they will be 3x3's and 4x4's. They protect those young bucks and let them grow and get some breeding in before they let a hunter take them, usually at the peak or just after in size and breeding capabilities.

As for states, most would agree that Idaho whitetail hunting is superior to Washington in spite of all the extra wolves Idaho has. And Idaho has a six week long modern season in which yo can take any deer. Killing does and small bucks there doesn't seem to affect the herd.

[buckfvr]

Ill disagree all day that spikes are inherently genetically inferior, especially here where our piss poor buck to doe ratios results in a LOT of late bred does.

Regardless of that arguement about genetic potential, the fact is, protecting the 1.5 year old (dumbest, easiest to kill) bucks results in a higher buck to doe ratio, and after a few years also a better, more natural age distribution of bucks.  More mature bucks = more scrapes, rubs, daylight rut movement...  a better hunt.  It also results in more fawns being born at the same time, increasing fawn survival.  It also results in bucks not being as worn out come winter from rutting a month too long, so higher buck winter survival.  So even if im wrong about the genetic thing, aprs still promote a more naturally functioning herd, better buck winter survival, better fawn survival.  If that means the magazine cover genetics are mostly lost, i dont care.  Its whats best for the herd.  The asthetically pleasing "trophy genetics" are my least concern, i care about a more natural buck:doe ratio and a more natural age distribution of bucks.  Thats what makes a healthy naturally functioning herd and a better hunting experience.

And the argument i always see here about aprs putting additional pressure on mature bucks is a complete joke.  The guys fighting aprs are doing so because they cant stand the thought of letting a yearling walk.  Because thats all they feel theyre capable of killing.  The guys that insist they be allowed to kill baby bucks arent capable of killing mature bucks.  If a guy could kill mature bucks, he wouldnt get angry about having to hold out for a 2.5 yr old, which most are 4pt, and 2.5 is still far from mature, and still very easy to kill.

The anti apr guys will do whstever mental gymnastics neccessary to rationalize killing yearling deer, no amount of logic or evidence will ever change that.  As such, im out of the apr debate, ive said my peace.  Enjoy killing off the bulk of yearling bucks and messing up the herd dynamics.  God forbid you have to let a forkie walk.  The "participation trophy" thing seems strong in this debate.

If killing the peckerhead bucks was increasing trophy genetics by "culling" bad genetics, then every buck in the NE corner should be a booner by 2.5 yrs old now, cause every buck i see on a meatpole here during mf season is a little dink.  So if youre improving the genetics so much, how are you all finding peckerheads to kill year after year after year?  Shouldnt you all be finding yearling trophy bucks by now?

   Every bit of it true........Ill add it gets damn old hearing the same ol whitetail this and whitetail that from old books and bios who cant seem to keep on learning, but I suppose how can they keep on learning about our whitetails when they dont engage them in any meaningful long term way.  Only read someones opinion or listen to someones and most likely agenda driven, ofcourse they are because they wrote it and want you to believe they are correct when they are only providing a generalization, no more.  Plain and simple, from western Montana to northeat Wa., whitetail are like no  where else in their range.  If apr doesnt work for whitetail, why has it been in effect for years and years in southeast wa. ??  If it doesnt work here then take it away there and spread out the killing of baby bucks in the management sense of per wdfw "high yield of young animals".

Wa. hunters enamoured with killing baby bucks are as bad as the wolves, cougs, bears, and yotes.  WDFW managers and commissioners who support killing baby deer are our deer herds enemy, period.  Its about revenue, not herd health.  Always has been always will.

[idaho guy]

Go to a ranch where they specialize in quality deer and you will see they protect the large racked bucks and encourage hunters to cull out the bucks with "inferior" antler genes.   I honestly believe that APRs eventually lead to deer with less points. You are putting all the pressure on the animals with the traits you are trying to encourage. And leaving the bucks with the traits you don't want to do the breeding.  Back Asswards.

On the ranches that specialize in growing huge bucks, they know that the really special bucks start showing it with their first set of antlers and instead of spikes they will be 3x3's and 4x4's. They protect those young bucks and let them grow and get some breeding in before they let a hunter take them, usually at the peak or just after in size and breeding capabilities.

As for states, most would agree that Idaho whitetail hunting is superior to Washington in spite of all the extra wolves Idaho has. And Idaho has a six week long modern season in which yo can take any deer. Killing does and small bucks there doesn't seem to affect the herd.

The nearly 2 month rifle season has had a pretty negative effect on both population and  number of older bucks for panhandle whitetail. It was a November 1 open and changed I think 10 years ago. The negative result in the panhandle is obvious and a 2 month rifle season is too long. The apr discussion is really interesting but confusing I can see both sides. Just looking at the harvest stats posted it’s hard to argue it wasn’t working great in 117 and 121

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Here's a little something to chew on........ The top 10 states for producing record book bucks have no antler point restrictions.

https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/whitetail-deer/do-antler-point-restrictions-work

Quote  "like it or not, the top-10 states for record-book whitetails impose few or no antler restrictions, unless you count the 3-inch spike rule. According to the Boone and Crockett Club’s online “Trophy Search,” the No. 1 whitetail state since 1999 is Wisconsin with 1,189 typical and nontypical entries, and it has no antler regulations. The other top B&C states this century are Illinois, 874 entries; Ohio, 804; Kentucky, 741; Iowa, 714; Indiana, 632; Missouri, 596; Kansas, 582; Minnesota, 486; and Texas, 423."

And quote #2 "It’s complex and nuanced. APRs protect yearling males and the proportion of males in a herd, but they haven’t produced lots of older males of various age and size. They also increase the number of males 2 ˝ and older in areas where hunters can shoot antlerless deer or elk, but average antler sizes in the harvest usually decrease eventually.”

And Boom.... #3 quote "“Regulations based on antler points alone can cause the most collateral damage,” said Bronson Strickland, a wildlife professor at Mississippi State University."

They go on to explain they in Mississippi they went to and inside spread and main beam length rule for bucks. How would you like to have to estimate that before you shot a buck? And of course you wouldn't know if you guessed right until the animal was dead and it was too late.  I don't think many hunters would go for that. As Alaska has found out with their 50 inch rule for moose, a lot of animals get killed and left to rot when the hunter realizes he made a mistake. And a lot of those animals aren't even close to 50 inches. some in the low 30s.

[hunter399]

.When people can't deny the harvest reports.Its the number 1 tool WDFW use ,and it says a different story than there telling us.
Habitat in the NE Washington is very diverse with excellent habitat-escapement .In my opinion You could never reach carrying capicity.
Honestly I would like to see if there is huge rises in depredations since the 4pt min was lifted .Create surplus deer ,then you create surplus predators.Then wipe out surplus deer in two seasons what are you left with.
Now we have deer populations that for some reason are have a hard time rebounding,with an explosive amount of predators.
In the next few years they will reap what they sow ,cause I noticed last year there are fewer hunters even with there any buck rules.

I forgot though WDFW says it didn't help the deer populations and the record harvests the year it ended was just nothing .I suppose those deer got transported here .

[Wsucoug]

That article is likely written by a journalist and not a scientist. Publications of this sort are not considered sources by ANY scientific community and they are useless when making claims.

However I did read it and then followed up on the Mississippi publications and studies.
Here is one summary of many studies.

https://ag.tennessee.edu/fwf/craigharper/Documents/Antler%20restrictions--Strickland.pdf

 I would say you would have a very hard time correlating results from a study on Mississippi to NE Washington. I mean if you just start reading though the results some of the publications you realize this deer heard is nothing like the heard in NE washington. From rutting times, hunting season, predators,  habitat, hunting methods, ect. you realize to much is different to make blank claims about APR.

I would also say that it is complex and nuanced especially if you treat APR equally across the united states. But if you starting reading and understanding the nuances its really easy to see why APRs would work in NE Wa.   

The inside spread was implemented because those deer where from the Mississippi delta where the soil is fertile and ag crops are plentiful causing deer express more antler points at a younger age. I would have to say that deer in NE Wa dont have the sample problem.

[Wsucoug]

Habitat in the NE Washington is very diverse with excellent habitat-escapement .In my opinion You could never reach carrying capicity.

This is one of those nuances that crosses my mind everytime I think about APRs. The cover is NE washington is nothing like it is the mid west. Older deer avoid pressure because they can just walk into a thick stand of reprod and disappear.

[Okanagan]

Can you post one of these studies? I have been looking for them, but all I can find are opinions pieces.

Curiosity induced me dig into deer antler growth research awhile back. I was not doing it to prove anything so did not take written notes. I had no interest in “I'll see your two whitetail studies and raise you one mule deer study,”  kind of debate. 

 To dig again and document feels like going back to grad school and I'll pass. You may cheerfully flunk me!  For me HuntWA is a casual place to relax and talk hunting with cordial folks rather than proof text, though I wish now that I had jotted notes for myself!  I can't find a study I read.  Keep trying different word combos in Google.  You will get your fingers slapped for using the word “inferior” and antler or buck in the same sentence, but it will likely pop up some sources which lead to others, some good, some not so good. 

 It would be valuable to have a catalog of deer research projects, and surely some University or maybe game dept. has such a list.   I found the same study Bango did, before he posted it, and I think it is from Quality Deer Management but not sure of that.  Just be sure to look at several studies and get some sense of consensus rather than one or two, but you know that. Possibles are:  Wisconsin,  Missouri, PA, Ill., Michigan, maybe Kansas and of course Texas, mostly on whitetails because that's where the money is and the majority of US deer hunters. Texas Parks and Wildlife and the Kerr Management Facility come to mind, plus I think Noble Research Institute and Quality Deer Management post some research conclusions, and there are considerably more.

I am not passionate about spike deer etc. and have no idea how to best manage a hunted deer population on public land.  I do think that Sitka Deer is correct that there are wide natural fluctuations in deer populations, etc.


 

[Wsucoug]

Can you post one of these studies? I have been looking for them, but all I can find are opinions pieces.

Curiosity induced me dig into deer antler growth research awhile back. I was not doing it to prove anything so did not take written notes. I had no interest in “I'll see your two whitetail studies and raise you one mule deer study,”  kind of debate. 

 To dig again and document feels like going back to grad school and I'll pass. You may cheerfully flunk me!  For me HuntWA is a casual place to relax and talk hunting with cordial folks rather than proof text, though I wish now that I had jotted notes for myself!  I can't find a study I read.  Keep trying different word combos in Google.  You will get your fingers slapped for using the word “inferior” and antler or buck in the same sentence, but it will likely pop up some sources which lead to others, some good, some not so good. 

 It would be valuable to have a catalog of deer research projects, and surely some University or maybe game dept. has such a list.   I found the same study Bango did, before he posted it, and I think it is from Quality Deer Management but not sure of that.  Just be sure to look at several studies and get some sense of consensus rather than one or two, but you know that. Possibles are:  Wisconsin,  Missouri, PA, Ill., Michigan, maybe Kansas and of course Texas, mostly on whitetails because that's where the money is and the majority of US deer hunters. Texas Parks and Wildlife and the Kerr Management Facility come to mind, plus I think Noble Research Institute and Quality Deer Management post some research conclusions, and there are considerably more.

I am not passionate about spike deer etc. and have no idea how to best manage a hunted deer population on public land.  I do think that Sitka Deer is correct that there are wide natural fluctuations in deer populations, etc.

I thought it would be valuable for the catalog purpose too. It was actually more of what I was getting at. That and also it would be nice to be able to come back to this thread and see how people are actually forming their opinions.