WDFW announces mountain goat removal in Olympic National Park

[JimmyHoffa]

This is pretty straight forward. This is a non native species causing damage to the ecosystem they've found themselves in. In the North American model of wildlife management there are many, many examples of times species were introduced long before anyone knew what was going on, only to be completely eradicated from an area decades later. That is what is unfolding here. This is not meant to be the hunt of a lifetime. It the NPS using volunteers to complete a task. As members of the conservation community hunters have been called on (across the country) to participate in these types of operations many times over the years. If you have hiked in any of these areas recently, you may have experienced the goats coming into your campsite, or staring you down while you eat lunch. You may end up glassing a Billy across snow capped peaks. You'll likely be directed where to go and will participate in a cull. Despite the "this isn't conservation, this isn't hunting" rhetoric, this is exactly what conservation looks like, and it was not meant to be a hunt. It is going to be a hard, ugly job doing things a lot of people don't like doing to improve habitat for future generations. This was what science based management looks like vs. but my feelings say we should just leave them management. It's not always the way we wish it could be.

So is this to save an ecosystem or because the goats interrupt peoples lunch.

I've spent my fair share of time up there and the Olympics are perfect goat habitat. Ya they kill some plants, so does every other big game animal. But if its the people interactions that are the problem maybe they should ban people.  Or limit them like the enchantments, where the goats and people also have to co exist. 

There are a few other animals in this state that are non native as well.

More the ecosystem for the science/management approach.  If it was a 'native' animal messing with hikers or their lunches, it would be more signs.  If you could shoot out an animal for bad behavior, I would think that grizzlies in Glacier and Yellowstone would have posses forming too.

[stlusn30-06]

So is this to save an ecosystem or because the goats interrupt peoples lunch.

I've spent my fair share of time up there and the Olympics are perfect goat habitat. Ya they kill some plants, so does every other big game animal. But if its the people interactions that are the problem maybe they should ban people.  Or limit them like the enchantments, where the goats and people also have to co exist. 

There are a few other animals in this state that are non native as well.
[/quote]

I'm going by what the agencies have laid out as their reasoning. It is a combination of both habitat degradation and issues with human interaction. Their population has grown exponentially since introduction. I take your point when it comes to other non-native species. Non-natives don't get priority of they aren't causing serious issues. The leaving of non-natives not causing issue vs remove anything non-native is an age old debate. It probably won't get solved here.

[jamesfromseattle]

It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.

Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.

I'm not at all saying run away. I'd do it if I wasn't fat and out of shape. I am saying don't treat it like an OIL hunt or a bucket list hunt, unless you've dreamed of being an APHIS sharpshooter since you were a child.  Do the job you volunteered to do and don't pass up nannies in favor of 10" booner billies just because you can keep the horns.
Also I'm saying don't post your hero shots all over Instagram too.  This may sound corny, but this virus situation with people freaking out because they can't drive across the state or to a different state to go fishing instead of waiting a few weeks has proven to me that people are more concerned about self-satisfaction than they are about the job at hand.

I full agree with this.  It's a volunteer job and not a hunt.  It's not and shouldn't be viewed as a glory hunt.  If I was in better shape right now I'd be interested because it would be a unique experience, but it wouldn't be to scratch the same itch as a bucket list hunt.  Different beast altogether.

The ethical considerations that apply to a cull are very different than a typical hunt, but they should be.  When you're hunting you're trying to interact with nature as it is.  When you're culling you're intentionally changing the ecosystem.  It's not wrong--it's just a different thing. 

[fishngamereaper]

So is this to save an ecosystem or because the goats interrupt peoples lunch.

I've spent my fair share of time up there and the Olympics are perfect goat habitat. Ya they kill some plants, so does every other big game animal. But if its the people interactions that are the problem maybe they should ban people.  Or limit them like the enchantments, where the goats and people also have to co exist. 

There are a few other animals in this state that are non native as well.

I'm going by what the agencies have laid out as their reasoning. It is a combination of both habitat degradation and issues with human interaction. Their population has grown exponentially since introduction. I take your point when it comes to other non-native species. Non-natives don't get priority of they aren't causing serious issues. The leaving of non-natives not causing issue vs remove anything non-native is an age old debate. It probably won't get solved here.
[/quote]

I get its based on their reasoning. I've been following the reasoning for a couple years and haven't really agreed with it. But I'm not a Park scientist either.

Its unfortunate really. The Olympics would be one of the best goat units in the state if they would just manage it that way. The goats up there went un hunted for so many years. I would of hoped they would have given hunting a few years to help fix the problem. 

[JimmyHoffa]

So is this to save an ecosystem or because the goats interrupt peoples lunch.

I've spent my fair share of time up there and the Olympics are perfect goat habitat. Ya they kill some plants, so does every other big game animal. But if its the people interactions that are the problem maybe they should ban people.  Or limit them like the enchantments, where the goats and people also have to co exist. 

There are a few other animals in this state that are non native as well.

I'm going by what the agencies have laid out as their reasoning. It is a combination of both habitat degradation and issues with human interaction. Their population has grown exponentially since introduction. I take your point when it comes to other non-native species. Non-natives don't get priority of they aren't causing serious issues. The leaving of non-natives not causing issue vs remove anything non-native is an age old debate. It probably won't get solved here.

I get its based on their reasoning. I've been following the reasoning for a couple years and haven't really agreed with it. But I'm not a Park scientist either.

Its unfortunate really. The Olympics would be one of the best goat units in the state if they would just manage it that way. The goats up there went un hunted for so many years. I would of hoped they would have given hunting a few years to help fix the problem. 
[/quote]
They barely dodged that last goat lawsuit from the hiker's death.  I'd imagine a second death would favor the plaintiffs not the park, cost more than the whole removal operation.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Another thing that I think is worth noting is that even for the best hunters this might not be a high success rate hunt. Not like a normal OIL. They’re doing more live captures this summer and are taking everything out of there they can. I think this hunt is just to clean up the final holdouts. I don’t think it’s going to be a bloodbath because it could be legitimately difficult to locate a goat. In some of the units there may not even be any goats left.

First of all this shouldn't be anything like any OIL hunt at all...by design. Theeeee problem in this regard are the guys who are signing up and treating it as an OIL tag. I mean it will be a once in a lifetime experience for sure....but it is designed to be a cull hunt. Not too many people in their lives will be able to say they've done something like this.
Secondly...They're going to send groups to where they know goats are. They will know because the NPS will be flying and surveying and they'll know where the goats are that are left. Hey....Goat team 6...you're assigned to this area. Kill em all!  It's almost supposed to be a blood bath.

After this is all over, I think NPS is going to be surprised at the number of goats that are still alive.  I truly doubt they will eradicate them as is their plan.  They will knock down the numbers, yes. But they will not get them all.

For one thing, I don't believe they have a clue how many goats there really are, especially if they are using aerial counts to get their numbers. Goats can be anywhere from the tops of mountains down to sea level. And they aren't as easy to see from the air as you would think.

The last goat hunt I did in Alaska, a friend an I flew a couple days before we hunted, with an ex Alaska enforcement officer who also did a lot of flying for Fish and Game. We had decided to hunt an area we weren't real familiar with so we wanted to see where goats might be, and even more important, how we might safely access the area and pack a goat out. We spent a couple hours in the air and saw what we thought was a decent amount of animals And finally decided to hunt up a ridge that went up into a basin with a couple small lakes surrounded by much higher peaks. But there seemed to be a few animals in the basin and on the peaks. we saw some singles and a couple doubles and one bunch of 5.  We took off from town in my boat and anchored in a bay below the ridge on the morning of the hunt and started up. When we got up to about 2,000 feet we started getting into goats.  My buddy got a nice 9 inch billy and we got together for some pictures. Then a bunch of about a dozen goats came out of a gorge and climbed up the side of a peak going up some cliffs that had to be seen to be believed. They were out of range and also in a spot that we agreed was ridiculous to try to get to. So while my friend took care of his goat, I went up the ridge farther and found more goats including a couple decent billies. And I got one. My friend joined me and while we were celebrating our double, much farther up the ridge we spotted a group of over 20 nannies and kids.  We ended up seeing over 50 goats that day from the ground. In an area we'd flown and seen about 10 a couple days before.  And this was in a unit that the bio told us had maybe 200 goats in the whole area. So we had seen supposedly 1/4 of the goats in the unit on a ridge on one side of a mountain in a unit that was hundreds of square mile in area. Could it have happened that the goats from all around congregated in that one small area? I guess. But a better guess would be that there were a lot more goats in the unit than they thought, and they don't see as many of them from the air as they think.  I know what we saw when we flew and what we saw with boots on the ground.

[kselkhunter]

This mountain goat management plan was developed in 2014, then updated every year through 2018.  Public meetings were already held on this exact topic with environmental groups years ago.  This isn't new information or a new plan, nor is this a surprise to environmental groups.  The documents spell out how the mountain goats were released in the Olympics before it was a National Park, why they're removing them and where they're moving them to.    The plan also lays out why they couldn't allow hunting in the national park without an act of Congress, which was deemed unlikely. 

Helicopters will likely be doing most of the lethal removal, but the ground based volunteers will augment that. 

There are fines and charges against the volunteers for violating the social media agreement that everybody had to sign.   Volunteers fall under the NPS rules for all behavior, as if they were a full time employee.  It's all spelled out clearly.  Once teams are selected, the members won't be able to do much discussion about it on this forum. Not without NPS approval.

Here's the excerpt on what was defined years ago in the Record of Decision/EIS, and they're sticking to the plan with this summer being the third year of the live capture effort.  Then switching to helicopter and ground based volunteers for lethal removal. 

Alternative C: Lethal Removal
Under alternative C, lethal removal using shotguns or high-powered rifles would be used to reduce or eliminate mountain goats from the park and adjacent Olympic National Forest. Mountain goats would not be translocated under this alternative. Specific management activities for the lethal removal of mountain goats would include helicopter- and ground-based use of firearms. Park staff and other approved personnel, including trained volunteers, would access areas on foot that are accessible, but in more remote areas, a helicopter would be used for lethal removal activities. Following lethal removal, mountain goat carcasses would remain on the landscape but would be moved from areas of high visitor use and occupied marmot habitat.

Initial lethal removal actions would involve removing as many mountain goats as possible from the Olympic Peninsula. It is expected that at least 90% of the projected 2018 mountain goat population, or approximately 625 to 675 mountain goats, could be removed during the initial management phase. Carcasses that result from aerial operations would remain in place if the carcasses are in steep and remote terrain and crews conducting ground-based lethal removal would remove as much carcass material as they are safely able to carry. Carcasses that are near areas of high human use would be relocated at least 325 feet away when safe to do so. Maintenance activities under alternative C would involve opportunistic ground- and helicopter-based lethal removal throughout the summer and fall seasons as personnel, funding, weather, and accessibility of targeted mountain goats allow. Maintenance activities would be
Olympic National Park 3 Mountain Goat Management Plan/ Record of Decision
prioritized in proximity to areas of high visitor use and areas experiencing high levels of resource damage.
The timing and duration of the initial management phase under alternative C would be 3 to 5 years, with most activity occurring in years 1 to 3. Lethal removals would be conducted only if necessary in years 4. and 5. In an effort to reduce the use of helicopters for lethal removal, management would start with ground-based activities, using skilled public volunteers and park staff in year 1. Helicopter-based operations would occur within the same 2-week management periods as described for alternative B, and ground-based lethal removal would take place opportunistically at any time during the year as needed.

Alternative D: Combination of Capture and Translocation and Lethal Removal
Under alternative D, initial management would involve the capture and translocation of as many mountain goats as possible, similar to alternative B, followed by a switch to lethal removal, similar to alternative C. Initial management activities under alternative D could last 3 to 5 years, with most of the activity in years 1 to 4. It is anticipated that nearly all management activities in year 1 would consist of live capture and translocation, which would continue to be the primary reduction tool during year 2. In year 1, capture operations would focus on locations where mountain goats can be safely captured and where they are interacting with visitors and resources. Some capture operations would continue into year 3 in the event of weather-related or other logistical constraints in years 1 and 2. Some lethal removal could be scheduled as early as the second capture operation in year 1, but only for those mountain goats that are determined to be uncatchable. Capture operations would occur during two 2-week management periods per year: once in mid- to late July, and once in late August to mid-September.

It is anticipated that initial management under alternative D would remove at least 90% of the mountain goat population, or approximately 625 to 67 5 mountain goats. Approximately 50% of the mountain goats would be captured and relocated and the remaining mountain goats would be lethally removed. Groundbased lethal removal would most likely start in the fall of year 2, directly after the second capture operation is completed. It is anticipated that the success rate for capturing mountain goats would diminish over time and management would likely switch to almost exclusively lethal removal during year 3 or year 4 of the initial management, but could begin as early as year 2. By year 5, most mountain goats encountered would be lethally removed.

SELECTED ALTERNATIVE
The NPS has selected alternative D, as described in the plan/EIS, for implementation. As described above, the selected alternative will use a combination of capture and translocation and lethal removal to reduce or eliminate mountain goats from the park.

The number of mountain goats to be removed, management activities, and the timing of management activities under the selected alternative are described below.

Mountain Goat Population Goal. The desired eventual population size is zero, although it is acknowledged that it may not be possible to capture or lethally remove all mountain goats. At least 90% of the population will be removed.
Initial Management. It is estimated that approximately 50% of the mountain goat population could be captured, or approximately 325-375 animals, based on the estimated 2018 population size. Capture and translocation will take place prior to lethal removal activities. Another estimated 40% of the original mountain goat population (approximately 275-325 animals) will be lethally removed. These 'activities will ultimately result in the removal of at least 90% of the mountain goat population.

Olympic National Park 4 Mountain Goat Management Plan/ Record of Decision
Maintenance Activities. At most, 10% of the mountain goat population will remafo following initial management. Maintenance activities will be prioritized in areas of high visitor use and will target larger groups of mountain goats that appear most likely to increase in number.

[bearpaw]

I really question the claim that goats never existed in the Olympics, perhaps there are remains of goats from centuries ago that simply have not been found? We may never know for sure! The hunting community supports the scientific management of wildlife and the management of wildlife via hunting whenever possible. The decisions have been made that these goats are non-native and to remove them.

Even though I would rather see these goats managed by allowing hunting opportunities into the future, park bureaucracy and public sentiment will probably never allow that. I think given the decision to remove the goats that good efforts have and are being made to make the most of these goats that live in the park.

They relocated many of the goats to bolster other herds that can be hunted in the future, I applaud that effort. Now they are doing a goat cull with volunteers which is financially responsible and allows goats to be utilized by humans to some extent, I also applaud this effort. I would expect helicopter culling to be the next effort for the eradication to be as complete as possible.

IMO, there has been a good effort to utilize the goats. Unless there are continued eradication efforts for several years I am skeptical the removal will be a complete removal of the specie from the Olympics and I'm further inclined to think that goats will likely migrate back into the park over time. Two things lost in this insatiable desire to maintain natural environments is that sometimes species and environments do change and that man is part of the environment. At what point does man actually alter the natural evolution by taking various actions to save or eliminate species? We will never know for sure!

At any rate, I think too much is being made of this issue, it's not a hunt, it's a cull. This is a good effort to allow humans to make use of some of the goats which IMO is much better than simply culling all the goats with a helicopter.

[kselkhunter]

I really question the claim that goats never existed in the Olympics, perhaps there are remains of goats from centuries ago that simply have not been found? We may never know for sure! The hunting community supports the scientific management of wildlife and the management of wildlife via hunting whenever possible. The decisions have been made that these goats are non-native and to remove them.

Even though I would rather see these goats managed by allowing hunting opportunities into the future, park bureaucracy and public sentiment will probably never allow that. I think given the decision to remove the goats that good efforts have and are being made to make the most of these goats that live in the park.

They relocated many of the goats to bolster other herds that can be hunted in the future, I applaud that effort. Now they are doing a goat cull with volunteers which is financially responsible and allows goats to be utilized by humans to some extent, I also applaud this effort. I would expect helicopter culling to be the next effort for the eradication to be as complete as possible.

IMO, there has been a good effort to utilize the goats. Unless there are continued eradication efforts for several years I am skeptical the removal will be a complete removal of the specie from the Olympics and I'm further inclined to think that goats will likely migrate back into the park over time. Two things lost in this insatiable desire to maintain natural environments is that sometimes species and environments do change and that man is part of the environment. At what point does man actually alter the natural evolution by taking various actions to save or eliminate species. We will never know for sure!

At any rate, I think too much is being made of this issue, it's not a hunt, it's a cull. This is a good effort to allow humans to make use of some of the goats which IMO is much better than simply culling all the goats with a helicopter.

Completely agree.  Well summarized.

And Congress would never change the law to allow hunting in a national park, so I can see why they didn't bother pursuing that through Congress.

They traced the release of goats back to 1925-29 period where 12 goats were released into the park area (before it was a park).   But you're right, I doubt they have much scientific research to prove there were not goats there before.   Just theory based on the isolated mountains (they actually have a list of non-native species that were introduced there).   

Personally I'd have rather they just left the goats alone.....and dealt with problem goats. One upside to the transplanted goats, is some have been placed into USFS lands that they plan on opening up more goat tags in the future for.   

But the train isn't stopping at this point....

[Encore 280]

I haven't read the whole thread but isn't Spring time when the females have the kids? What's the plan for them?

[kselkhunter]

I haven't read the whole thread but isn't Spring time when the females have the kids? What's the plan for them?

They have one last series of relocations this summer to get as many goats out alive as they can.  After that, the helicopters and volunteers will cull as many goats as they see, including the females and kids.  The goal is zero goats, but the Park service acknowledges even with best efforts that 10% of the goats after a 5-10 year period will still remain and they have continued goat maintenance planned.  Just because it's so hard to eradicate a species in that terrain....

[jackelope]

I haven't read the whole thread but isn't Spring time when the females have the kids? What's the plan for them?

Relocate first or kill what''s left of them. It's a culling operation.

[bigmacc]

It seems ironic that for years whenever there has been a need to cull animals and hired groups are used to remove them, the hue and cry of “why don’t they use hunters?” rings loudly.

Now there is an offer to use hunters and many can’t seem to run away fast enough.

I can only speak for myself but in todays political environment and even over the last 25 or so years you would never hear that "hue or cry" from me, back in the day, hell yes, like I said before I would have been first in line for something like this but like everybody always says "this isn't the good ole days". A different time, heck 40,50 years ago hunters who took care of this "business" would have probably be touted as hometown heroes, had articles written in local papers of how the renegade, evasive goats were eradicated out of our national park to keep the trails safe for our citizens. In todays environment of politics, special interest groups, the internet and high-powered animal rights groups with deep pockets and support this is nothing I as a hunter and sportsman would want to be involved in because I see no positives in it for hunters or the health of our hunting heritage, I do see the very likely potential of a lot of negative coming out of this for our hunting community and in this state of Washington especially, thats the last thing we as hunters need, let the government handle this one by themselves, let them have the blood on their hands, not we as hunters, like I said before, this has nothing but bad written all over it for hunters and also like Ive said many times, I truly hope Im wrong. Yes, I'm old enough and fortunate enough to have lived and hunted in those "good ole days" in this state and trust me on this, we are no where close nowadays, especially on how we as hunters are viewed. What Im saying is the truth.....my  .........carry on.

[rainshadow1]

Typical govt.... Sportsmen clamoring for years, "Stop sending in riflemen in helicopters! Sell tags! We'll do it and pay YOU!" so, they hire volunteers to eradicate........

Not what we were going for.

I read this whole thread... Grew up in Sequim. Spent most of my outdoor life in the Olympics. The NPS is running this, but to completely eradicate, they're going to have to work with WDFW, because a few goats are outside the park. (I drew an archery tag when I was 17, missed one shooting straight down on the top of Iron Mountain...) That's why it never ends, I don't know if they've addressed that this round.  Yes steep country, the worst, you'll turn back for a new route... often. Yes mountain climate, when it's sunny and happy down below. Yes likely to be a PR nightmare these days, especially since it's not a special tag "hunt" like we always wanted. Ethical hunters may gag to leave them rot after taking samples, but that's what we need... ethical hunters. Shooters in this case, it's not a hunt.

All that said, 20 years ago I'd do it! (Heck, if I was in better shape now I'd still do it!)

Hope some of our guys get in on it.

[Bob33]

I’m not sure how much of a fair comparison it is, but for several years in the early 2000s I hunted the high buck hunt in one of the Olympic wilderness areas. We were about five miles in from the trailhead. We packed in and out with rifles on our backs, and with deer on our backs coming out when successful. We encountered hikers in limited numbers on most trips and never had a bad experience with any of them. There seemed to be a respect that we got there on our own two feet, the same way they did. We didn’t bother them, and they didn’t bother us.

I hope that whoever takes this opportunity is able to achieve their objectives without a lot of adverse reactions.  Good luck to the hunters.