Should Washington Move to a Draw Only Management for Yakima, Colockum, and Blues

[wildskywashington29]

Welcome to the site Jacob, put your seatbelt on.

For some reason it logged me on as an account I made way back in the day. I've been on the site plenty before I posted this! Thanks though!

[mburrows]

Draw only i would be 100% on board with. With the exception of keep it general season for youth in certain units and seasons.

[wildskywashington29]

I thought it was draw only except spikes?   There are no spikes so doesn’t matter but yea if question is no spike tags yea do it.

Yeah would transfer the spike harvest to a draw only system where those elk are taken as 2-10 year old bulls. Talked with the Elk bio in Yakima and he said there are 10,11, and 12 year old bulls running around that never get taken and die of old age on a regular basis. He even darted a 16 year old so the current tag allocation under this system isn't allowing enough hunter the option to take branch bulls. This happens in part because the WDFW has to cross their fingers hoping that the general season harvests the amount of bulls they hope it to rather than potentially slaughtering them on year and killing most of the bulls that will escape to become mature animals

[Special T]

Welcome Jacob!
 Where is a link so I can listen to the podcast?
This discussion usually revolves around a few points so we might as well identify them.
1 tribal hunting. All sportsmen are frustrated  because they dont report, kill lots of nice animals and a few like to rub our nose in it. AND contrary to running discussion we cant do a damned thing about it.
2 predator management. The loss of hound hunting and the introduction of wolves have allowed them to thrive. IT is a discussion unto itself that can take up a whole thread. predators are not managed.
3 Permit only several variations of this discussion have been bantered back and forth. This year archers can only kill spikes like everyone else so it is as close to the permit system as you can get. The mIn problem in my opinion of going permit only is the 1 you have to choose a side of the state 2 you have to buy you elk tag before you put in for the draw. Most other states you pay for the draw, perhaps put the $ down but if you dont get drawn you dont have to buy the tag. This state gets to squeeze the sportsmen on all sides.  If this solution is going to be pursued the a compleate revamp of the elk tag system will have to take place. Not an easy undertaking.

Most discussions focus on one point and try to drive its importance home. I am of the opinion that at least 2 of the 3 need to be undertaken. If you examine the Game Management Plans they attempt to manage them in seperate colums as if the management of cats has no effect on deer or elk numbers. I am of the opinion that permitted only by itself is folly. It allows the expansion of predators and does nothing to resolve the contention with tribal hunters.

My 2c

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[wildskywashington29]

Draw only i would be 100% on board with. With the exception of keep it general season for youth in certain units and seasons.

That's an interesting idea, would a higher allocation of tags to youth hunters in the draws make up for a general season? I would love getting more young hunters out in the woods. Seems like a solid idea!

[wildskywashington29]

Welcome Jacob!
 Where is a link so I can listen to the podcast?
This discussion usually revolves around a few points so we might as well identify them.
1 tribal hunting. All sportsmen are frustrated  because they dont report, kill lots of nice animals and a few like to rub our nose in it. AND contrary to running discussion we cant do a damned thing about it.
2 predator management. The loss of hound hunting and the introduction of wolves have allowed them to thrive. IT is a discussion unto itself that can take up a whole thread. predators are not managed.
3 Permit only several variations of this discussion have been bantered back and forth. This year archers can only kill spikes like everyone else so it is as close to the permit system as you can get. The mIn problem in my opinion of going permit only is the 1 you have to choose a side of the state 2 you have to buy you elk tag before you put in for the draw. Most other states you pay for the draw, perhaps put the $ down but if you dont get drawn you dont have to buy the tag. This state gets to squeeze the sportsmen on all sides.  If this solution is going to be pursued the a compleate revamp of the elk tag system will have to take place. Not an easy undertaking.

Most discussions focus on one point and try to drive its importance home. I am of the opinion that at least 2 of the 3 need to be undertaken. If you examine the Game Management Plans they attempt to manage them in seperate colums as if the management of cats has no effect on deer or elk numbers. I am of the opinion that permitted only by itself is folly. It allows the expansion of predators and does nothing to resolve the contention with tribal hunters.

My 2c

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Interesting Points!

1: are you saying we can do something about it, cause as far as i know those regulations are set by the tribes in accordance with their treaties and since they are independent entities the state has no say other than offering suggestions. Honestly seems like the Colville have there S*** together since they are killing great bulls and bucks every year up there and have super generous seasons. Using diplomacy is the best way create change towards this issue in my opinion.

2: I agree with you on predator management. I have delved into that issue as much as I have this one but I don't understand why we can kill two bears a year but minimal units have spring seasons and they are draw only. If we could pressure bears more in the spring I think it could be effective in curbing this. I don't have a lot of hope with they way wolves are moving in especially with the social standing of the west side of the state and non hunters views toward them but I would like to be able to get a jump on managing them. Got pushed out of an area in the Eagle Caps in Oregon last year because a pack shut down the rut. One day bugling bulls the next few just howling in every direction.

3: The reason for the choosing he side of the state is to focus hunters. Units are already crowded with this in place so honestly I would like to see stricter changes to elk zones like Idaho so hunters can't buy an east side tag, compete in the draws for blues and colockum and hunt yakima for spikes or selkirk etc...
If washington made a hunting license system and didn't make hunters buy a tag prior to putting in that would be great but that would have to come with making hunters pick a zone to apply in rather than applying all over the place and buying an otc if they don't draw. I believe OTC units would become overrun unless they were capped if hunters were able to put in for east and hunt west if they didn't draw. Unfortunately this is the case with how many hunters compete in this state.

I made another post about all my proposals in more detail if you want to check it out!

[wildskywashington29]

Also the link to the podcast is under a thread called ElkShape Podcast or you can go to this link as well.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/welcome-to-the-washington-state-elk-show/id1315352438?i=1000476158686

[MtnMuley]

Let's cut Jacob some slack.......afterall, he just finished doing a Podcast!

All poking aside, you have some very fine points my friend. I've supported alternatives like you've described for many years. Guys like you making a stance, help our cause. Thanks.

[MAVsled]

Quote: "talked with the Elk bio in Yakima and he said there are 10,11, and 12 year old bulls running around that never get taken and die of old age on a regular basis."

Keep the OTC spike bull seasons. BUT limit the special elk permit tags to one GMU, ONE hunt choice. NOT 4 choices. And make the any bull permit for 3 point or better bull tag.
I meet hunters every year in the field that have drawn the bull permit in the 360 unit that I hunt elk. Many have never hunted the unit before. Just look at the internet & this website; "drawn such and such unit bull tag. Never been there before, anyone have any pointers?   etc etc etc.

I keep tabs on their camps, talk with them later in the season etc. And some only hunt a few days, some just the weekends, not the entire season.
But most never fill their "any Bull" tags with a branched antlered bull....they either don't know the unit well or are rookie elk hunters and don't know much. Or they think they know it all and don't know shiat!
I've observed several will dump spikes instead in the early 4 day any bull season, rather than wait until general season kicks in and hunting pressure or if lucky bad snowy weather moves the bulls down out of the wilderness.

I could fill my tag every year on a branched bull.....because I know my GMU and flow of the elk depending on conditions.
since the special bull tags started, I've drawn it 3x and filled it all 3 times.

[Special T]

Welcome Jacob!
 Where is a link so I can listen to the podcast?
This discussion usually revolves around a few points so we might as well identify them.
1 tribal hunting. All sportsmen are frustrated  because they dont report, kill lots of nice animals and a few like to rub our nose in it. AND contrary to running discussion we cant do a damned thing about it.
2 predator management. The loss of hound hunting and the introduction of wolves have allowed them to thrive. IT is a discussion unto itself that can take up a whole thread. predators are not managed.
3 Permit only several variations of this discussion have been bantered back and forth. This year archers can only kill spikes like everyone else so it is as close to the permit system as you can get. The mIn problem in my opinion of going permit only is the 1 you have to choose a side of the state 2 you have to buy you elk tag before you put in for the draw. Most other states you pay for the draw, perhaps put the $ down but if you dont get drawn you dont have to buy the tag. This state gets to squeeze the sportsmen on all sides.  If this solution is going to be pursued the a compleate revamp of the elk tag system will have to take place. Not an easy undertaking.

Most discussions focus on one point and try to drive its importance home. I am of the opinion that at least 2 of the 3 need to be undertaken. If you examine the Game Management Plans they attempt to manage them in seperate colums as if the management of cats has no effect on deer or elk numbers. I am of the opinion that permitted only by itself is folly. It allows the expansion of predators and does nothing to resolve the contention with tribal hunters.

My 2c

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Interesting Points!

1: are you saying we can do something about it, cause as far as i know those regulations are set by the tribes in accordance with their treaties and since they are independent entities the state has no say other than offering suggestions. Honestly seems like the Colville have there S*** together since they are killing great bulls and bucks every year up there and have super generous seasons. Using diplomacy is the best way create change towards this issue in my opinion.

2: I agree with you on predator management. I have delved into that issue as much as I have this one but I don't understand why we can kill two bears a year but minimal units have spring seasons and they are draw only. If we could pressure bears more in the spring I think it could be effective in curbing this. I don't have a lot of hope with they way wolves are moving in especially with the social standing of the west side of the state and non hunters views toward them but I would like to be able to get a jump on managing them. Got pushed out of an area in the Eagle Caps in Oregon last year because a pack shut down the rut. One day bugling bulls the next few just howling in every direction.

3: The reason for the choosing he side of the state is to focus hunters. Units are already crowded with this in place so honestly I would like to see stricter changes to elk zones like Idaho so hunters can't buy an east side tag, compete in the draws for blues and colockum and hunt yakima for spikes or selkirk etc...
If washington made a hunting license system and didn't make hunters buy a tag prior to putting in that would be great but that would have to come with making hunters pick a zone to apply in rather than applying all over the place and buying an otc if they don't draw. I believe OTC units would become overrun unless they were capped if hunters were able to put in for east and hunt west if they didn't draw. Unfortunately this is the case with how many hunters compete in this state.

I made another post about all my proposals in more detail if you want to check it out!

1 there are some things that could be done. Most arnt to peoples satisfaction everyone like to hate onIndians, and a handful of Yakimas build everyone's blood pressure.
2, The Animal rights activists have the department afraid of lawsuits. This spring bear season was supposed to have mandated hide tagging to increase tooth samples, sexing and surgery to see if harvested females were lactating. This is a political battle and has nothing to do with good science. In the bear management plan there are only 2 units of concern and one of them is the low lands Puget sound where the population lives.
3 since I dont subscribe to permits being a solution I wont propose it as one. I will say that I have hunted Eastern oregon and I think thier system has merrit.


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[Mfowl]

I vote no, why give up an OTC opportunity? I agree that something needs to be done about the tribal individuals who exploit their rights.

Because what is being passed as OTC opportunity creates crowded woods and success rates that hover between .5-6% on the high end in most of these herds managed this way. Compared to other states that is nothing.

I am not opposed to your ideas I just don't want to give up an OTC opportunity that more than likely will never comeback. Someone can hunt on the cheap and not even participate in the draw process if they so choose. I also think doing away with an OTC opportunity will diminish hunter participation going forward. We have a higher population than many other western elk hunting states. Crowds are just a fact of hunting life here.

[Skillet]

I vote no, why give up an OTC opportunity? I agree that something needs to be done about the tribal individuals who exploit their rights.

Because what is being passed as OTC opportunity creates crowded woods and success rates that hover between .5-6% on the high end in most of these herds managed this way. Compared to other states that is nothing.

I am not opposed to your ideas I just don't want to give up an OTC opportunity that more than likely will never comeback. Someone can hunt on the cheap and not even participate in the draw process if they so choose. I also think doing away with an OTC opportunity will diminish hunter participation going forward. We have a higher population than many other western elk hunting states. Crowds are just a fact of hunting life here.

Washington is the smallest of the 11 Western States, with the 2nd highest population. 

[villajac29]

Quote: "talked with the Elk bio in Yakima and he said there are 10,11, and 12 year old bulls running around that never get taken and die of old age on a regular basis."

Keep the OTC spike bull seasons. BUT limit the special elk permit tags to one GMU, ONE hunt choice. NOT 4 choices. And make the any bull permit for 3 point or better bull tag.
I meet hunters every year in the field that have drawn the bull permit in the 360 unit that I hunt elk. Many have never hunted the unit before. Just look at the internet & this website; "drawn such and such unit bull tag. Never been there before, anyone have any pointers?   etc etc etc.

I keep tabs on their camps, talk with them later in the season etc. And some only hunt a few days, some just the weekends, not the entire season.
But most never fill their "any Bull" tags with a branched antlered bull....they either don't know the unit well or are rookie elk hunters and don't know much. Or they think they know it all and don't know shiat!
I've observed several will dump spikes instead in the early 4 day any bull season, rather than wait until general season kicks in and hunting pressure or if lucky bad snowy weather moves the bulls down out of the wilderness.

I could fill my tag every year on a branched bull.....because I know my GMU and flow of the elk depending on conditions.
since the special bull tags started, I've drawn it 3x and filled it all 3 times.

Sounds like you really have that area figured out. The problem is that hunters who just started will most likely only draw that specific tag once in there life now that the system has hit a point of diminishing returns. Point creep will keep everyone's odds low and I find it highly unlikely that you will draw that tag again within the next 30 years. Sacrificing a chance at spikes every year will give you and other hunters the chance to not compete with 1000 other rifle hunters and likely see more bulls running around above 2 years of age. Here's a table I developed showing how many years it would take to give everyone in the application pool a tag if they prevented any new applicants and barred those who drew from reapplying. Remember this was before the drop in population. Hope it gives you good reference and shows you how lucky you really are to have drawn that tag 3 times.

[villajac29]

* to the picture above, the numbers are higher than that cause in fact you can reapply right after you draw and there will definitely be new applicants from the trend so far.

[trophyhunt]

Once again we are talking about limiting a certain race of people while other certain races continue a free for all? Really!