Should Washington Move to a Draw Only Management for Yakima, Colockum, and Blues

[dilleytech]

There’s some real experts on here giving real good expertise and perspective and then there’s the OP who talks to biologists and was on a podcast. I don’t believe for a second that 3/4 of people buying tags and stepping out of there rigs “if they put in that much effort”  have any chance of killing an animal any way. So to keep seeing that 2-3% odds figure thrown out there is ridiculous.

[dreamingbig]

Why would I call?  So you can tell me I'm wrong over the phone as well as in text  you want to talk and not listen. Every time someone with a long and detailed knowledge base of our elk herds says anything you try and minimalize and discredit their experiences. That's not having a conversation, that's waiting for your turn to talk. Even with Pinetar who flat out knows more about kittitas elk than anyone working for wdfw you still try and pick apart his comments

Spikes aren't hard to find and kill. You and Dan talking about how they are an anomaly in the woods shows your lack of experience. They are the least intelligent elk you can hunt besides a calf and can be killed with great regularity. You can't manage your way to becoming a better and more successful hunter. I don't know a single hunter that ACTUALLY applies themselves that doesn't kill an elk every few years. The key word is ACTUALLY though. Those who haven't killed an elk in 20 years will find no more success hunting an older and smarter animal. That's fact. If you could pick apart success rates into individuals for multiple years you would still see the same names over and over again. Regardless of weapon, season, state, or species.

You have stated over and over that if the hunters of WA really care more about hunting every year then you would let it lie. Well it's been stated over and over. Every hunter survey that I can ever remember has had the same consensus, we wanna hunt every year.  You seem to dismiss that though

Lastly, I'll say it for the 10th time, I'm not even apposed to permit only but not until data collection catches up with 2020. There is too little data collection and too much reactionary knee jerk management. DO NOT PUT THE CART IN FRONT OF THE HORSE. permit only may be the ultimate answer but not until other avenues are exhausted. My older brother was doing this exact same research and analysis before you were even thinking about hunting. The difference was he listened.

Thanks RT

So how do we get them to issue more permits?  Right now the permit levels are a joke.  A spike only archery season with no OTC cow opportunities is not much opportunity.

I really want to know our options.  The game department is not listening.


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[dreamingbig]

I haven't gone completely through this thread but what herds/units is he talking about? Does he want to manage all herds/units on East side the same as if they are one and thinks ALL have the same issues and problems?

I keep hearing by most on here that the Blues are in trouble and will believe that since I know nothing of the Blues. Also hear the Yakima herds are having issues by some on here and will not comment on those as I do not hunt them either but sounds like Karl thinks they are doing fine and that is a good enough opinion for me. I will go with someone spending tons of times in the hills before I will go with the biologists that sit at their desks and push numbers around, especially since I have never seen one of our local biologist in the field.

But as far as Manastash (Observatory), Taneum (Peaches Ridge), Teanaway and Colockum units, they are just fine. Cutting the permits in the Manastash and Taneum is a joke. The herds in these four units are doing fine, cows, calves and all age class of bulls.

I spend a ton of time in the hills nine months out of the year as my job affords it as I just work in the summer months. From January through April for the last 30 years I have been in these units almost every single day watching Elk and their movements and I have not once seen a biologist on the ground and I know who they are. I have seen them flying around in helos occasionally and they are never out there until noonish or later when the bulls are already bedded down in the timber for the day. Sure they can fly around down low in the winter and count their herds of cows, calves and younger bulls but if they want to count their mature bulls (even on big winter years) they need to get up a hell of a lot earlier and strap on some snowshoes, they would be quite surprised how many mature bulls there are and what never comes down to the winter welfare elk in feed lots. We also do not see them flying in the higher elevations where all these big lonely bulls are wintering and that may be due to the weather or danger of up drafts? One year they showed up at 1PM landed in the snow and talked to me. They asked me what I was doing and if I had seen any bulls? I asked them what they were doing? They said "counting mature bulls so they could figure out their branch bull numbers for the upcoming season" This happened on April 1st LOL

Lots of complaining about hunting sucks for spike bulls but why are there always a bunch of spikes running around after hunting season and in our feedlots and around the outskirts all winter.

Hunting elk every year is a tradition in our huge family and we always fill most of our kids spike tags and when we do get lucky and draw a special branched antlered tag we have a great hunt and always fill the tag with a smoker bull. If we do not draw a special branched tag we can always go hunt branched bulls in the any elk units. We live on a ranch and have cattle but we would rather eat elk and fill our freezers with cow tags, OTC spikes and the occasional mature bull. Getting out hunting elk every year with family and friends is what I live for.

Leave it alone and go back to more bull tags in the Manastash (Observatory) and Taneum (Peaches Ridge) cause the four units mentioned above have plenty of mature bulls and cutting the tags is ridiculous.

Maybe there are issues in some units but certainly not in all of them, managing them all the same by taking OTC hunting away from everyone and only being able to hunt elk every three to five years is BS. I like hunting elk and eating spikes with the slim chance of hunting mature bulls.

WDFW and their biologist do not and can not manage themselves let alone our elk herds. For years they weren't giving out enough permits for mature bulls in the Colockum and they were dying of old age, they didn't believe any of us locals on what they had up there. They finally started giving out more tags then started cutting them in the other units.

We have some great elk hunting in this state and IMO when you draw a tag you have a better chance of killing a smoker bull then any other state and I have killed and hunted in a lot of the other Western states for elk.

You can't and shouldn't manage all the Eastside elk units the same with drawing every 3 to 5 years to hunt elk. I'm all for figuring out a system that will give us all a better chance to draw more often but shutting down OTC hunting of elk is not the answer.

Start killing more predators is a great start for all of our ungulates. And more scouting then hunting will notch your tags.

So how do we get them to issue more permits?  Right now the permit levels are a joke.  A spike only archery season with no OTC cow opportunities is not much opportunity.


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[Northforker]

This will never be fixed

Bingo!!! You nailed it!  Sad but absolutely true!!  It will go up and down like the stock market.  Some years a little better than others but over the long haul it will go downward if nothing is done.  Being that WDFW has no control over native hunting and predators, and that their desire for funds is more than their desire for management, it will as you said, "This will never be fixed"!

In other states like Montana and Wyoming, natives that hunt off of the reservations have to follow the same rules as the rest of the people.  In those states they are letting people hunt and trap wolves along with using dogs to hunt cougars and bears to keep the predators under control.  Don't blame WDFW for this, it is the liberal agenda, tree-hugger's, and Liberal judges that will never let this happen in our state.  If they weren't making a mint off of our revenue for the general fund and their social programs, hunting would probably already be outlawed in our state.  King County makes all the rules in this state and it is full of fruits and nuts.

[Bango skank]

Why would I call?  So you can tell me I'm wrong over the phone as well as in text  you want to talk and not listen. Every time someone with a long and detailed knowledge base of our elk herds says anything you try and minimalize and discredit their experiences. That's not having a conversation, that's waiting for your turn to talk. Even with Pinetar who flat out knows more about kittitas elk than anyone working for wdfw you still try and pick apart his comments

Spikes aren't hard to find and kill. You and Dan talking about how they are an anomaly in the woods shows your lack of experience. They are the least intelligent elk you can hunt besides a calf and can be killed with great regularity. You can't manage your way to becoming a better and more successful hunter. I don't know a single hunter that ACTUALLY applies themselves that doesn't kill an elk every few years. The key word is ACTUALLY though. Those who haven't killed an elk in 20 years will find no more success hunting an older and smarter animal. That's fact. If you could pick apart success rates into individuals for multiple years you would still see the same names over and over again. Regardless of weapon, season, state, or species.

You have stated over and over that if the hunters of WA really care more about hunting every year then you would let it lie. Well it's been stated over and over. Every hunter survey that I can ever remember has had the same consensus, we wanna hunt every year.  You seem to dismiss that though

Lastly, I'll say it for the 10th time, I'm not even apposed to permit only but not until data collection catches up with 2020. There is too little data collection and too much reactionary knee jerk management. DO NOT PUT THE CART IN FRONT OF THE HORSE. permit only may be the ultimate answer but not until other avenues are exhausted. My older brother was doing this exact same research and analysis before you were even thinking about hunting. The difference was he listened.

Thanks RT

So how do we get them to issue more permits?  Right now the permit levels are a joke.  A spike only archery season with no OTC cow opportunities is not much opportunity.

I really want to know our options.  The game department is not listening.


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Hate to say it, but your only real option is to figure out another area to hunt elk.  Whether that means a different part of washington, or heading out of state, thats what your options are for better opportunity.

[jdb]

There is a lot of really good information in this thread. Very little of it by the OP

[Special T]

There is a lot of really good information in this thread. Very little of it by the OP

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. The OP whole post is very informative. ALL  of his solutions focus on single species management. It reminds me of what I have heard from the department in the past with a slightly different take. He is right that Currently the 2 big issues predators and Tribal harvest  cannot be changed. BUT we have an opportunity...

The 25 year strategic plan discussion is underway.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/administration/strategic-planning

The current Game management plan  will be expire in 2021 which means that process is in motion.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/season-setting

There is only certain times you can affect changes in predator control and it is during these times.  NOW that the opportunity is here dont be lulled into dispare and complacency.




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[idahohuntr]

This will never be fixed

Bingo!!! You nailed it!  Sad but absolutely true!!  It will go up and down like the stock market.  Some years a little better than others but over the long haul it will go downward if nothing is done.  Being that WDFW has no control over native hunting and predators, and that their desire for funds is more than their desire for management, it will as you said, "This will never be fixed"!

In other states like Montana and Wyoming, natives that hunt off of the reservations have to follow the same rules as the rest of the people.  In those states they are letting people hunt and trap wolves along with using dogs to hunt cougars and bears to keep the predators under control.  Don't blame WDFW for this, it is the liberal agenda, tree-hugger's, and Liberal judges that will never let this happen in our state.  If they weren't making a mint off of our revenue for the general fund and their social programs, hunting would probably already be outlawed in our state.  King County makes all the rules in this state and it is full of fruits and nuts.

I want to clarify that bolded part - that is not accurate.  A Tribes hunting 'rules' off-reservation are largely going to be dictated by whether they have a treaty and what it says.  There are hundreds of Tribes in the US and so there is a lot of variability and complexity in each case.  There are many Tribes in Wy and MT with off-reservation hunting rights and the recent Herrera case clarified this for the folks in Wyoming who mistakenly believed they had jurisdiction over a tribal member hunting elk off reservation. 

[Rainier10]

So it is spring time in the Naneum.  This weekend I watched a herd of cows and calves.  There were 49 cows, 49 calves and 2 spikes.  Some of the cows looked too small to have given birth so I assume some of the calves were twins.  It will be very interesting to see how many calves I see running around come September/October.  Just as many calves at that time will be awesome.  A drastic drop will mean the predators are eating well.

[Mfowl]

So it is spring time in the Naneum.  This weekend I watched a herd of cows and calves.  There were 49 cows, 49 calves and 2 spikes.  Some of the cows looked too small to have given birth so I assume some of the calves were twins.  It will be very interesting to see how many calves I see running around come September/October.  Just as many calves at that time will be awesome.  A drastic drop will mean the predators are eating well.

Glad that hear this!  Things seem plenty lush and green in the hills. Hopefully the forage holds up and they stay healthy going in to winter!

[GameHunter1959]

IMO - Elk Hunting is an Art. Those that put in the time prior to the season opening, hike deep into the woods, hunt dark holes and drainages, are the ones that are most successful. Special Permits don’t guarantee anyone anything but a different opportunity that is limited to one or a handful of hunters. They could give out tons of Bull permits, which is great, but you still have to fulfill all the steps pre-season and during the season if you want to fill your permit.

The one thing I have never trusted is the harvest numbers. I know the unit we hunt extremely well. I spend time watching the Deer and Elk throughout the year. Noway are the harvest reports accurate for the amount of Bucks killed. We went over it one year at Deer Camp, as I was curious to hear the opinions of others who have hunted the GMU for 55+ years. All agreed that the harvest numbers are way off. Not even close to reality. It’s laughable...

[dilleytech]

IMO - Elk Hunting is an Art. Those that put in the time prior to the season opening, hike deep into the woods, hunt dark holes and drainages, are the ones that are most successful. Special Permits don’t guarantee anyone anything but a different opportunity that is limited to one or a handful of hunters. They could give out tons of Bull permits, which is great, but you still have to fulfill all the steps pre-season and during the season if you want to fill your permit.

The one thing I have never trusted is the harvest numbers. I know the unit we hunt extremely well. I spend time watching the Deer and Elk throughout the year. Noway are the harvest reports accurate for the amount of Bucks killed. We went over it one year at Deer Camp, as I was curious to hear the opinions of others who have hunted the GMU for 55+ years. All agreed that the harvest numbers are way off. Not even close to reality. It’s laughable...

Agreed but the great thing about elk hunting is they are big noisy dumb forest cows. You don’t really need to know exactly where they are. Just go put on the miles. Your right, The harvest numbers aren’t accurate. A lot of hunters say unsuccessful no matter what. 

[Threewolves]

NO.

[huntingaddiction]

I thought it was draw only except spikes?   There are no spikes so doesn’t matter but yea if question is no spike tags yea do it.

No spikes?  Ok, you wanna know how many we saw late archery season last year?

[Rainier10]

If and that is a big if, but if they went to draw only in these herds they should change the state to OTC or permit only elk categories to keep crowding down in the units that aren't permit only.  The eastern WA units that were still OTC hunting would be packed with hunters if they close the main yakima, colockum and blues units down.

You could choose OTC and hunt all west side units that are OTC and put in for west side permits or hunt any east side unit that was OTC.  If you chose permit only tag you could only put in for eastside or westside permits.