What Elk Management Change Proposals do you Support

[huntnphool]

points need to be eliminated, the demand is far greater than tags available and only getting worse

 Agreed, but while eliminating the points, there has to be a acceptable solution for those that have been paying for them all these years.

https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,214387.msg2854669.html#msg2854669

 While this may not be the perfect solution or have all the answers, I think it would be a plan to start from.

[grundy53]

points need to be eliminated, the demand is far greater than tags available and only getting worse

Agreed

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[Ironhead]

How is removing points going to help manage the Elk herds? It might help manage the Human herds?

[blackveltbowhunter]

  Kinda getting off track. Although point elimination is a good thing

   I have very little experience on the eastside, so take whatever I say in regards to hunting it with a grain of salt.

   Of the options listed I probably lean toward number 3. Gives everyone the chance to hunt where they prefer and spread out pressure, etc. It also includes the westside in the conversation which is important. Things have changed drastically here also. Sure we have OTC branch bull, but be prepared to break out wallet for a private timber pass. Along with new computer, the fastest internet connection, and a prescription of xanax to acquire it. And your not gonna weed through the bulls, the first barely legal branch gets it. But it is an (very slim) opportunity to shoot the big one.

Category elimination is another good option.

   My favorite option wasn't on the list. Open eastside to OTC any bull harvest. Their is no end in sight, why are WDFW licensed hunters the ones constantly giving up things? Until real predator killing solutions are presented and the tribal harvest is more tightly controlled, EVERY option is loose tourniquet and not a real solution. I care deeply about the elk herds and the future of hunting in this state, but wake up is needed and we aren't getting it by furthering the restrictions on licensed hunters.

[villajac29]

Kinda getting off track. Although point elimination is a good thing

   I have very little experience on the eastside, so take whatever I say in regards to hunting it with a grain of salt.

   Of the options listed I probably lean toward number 3. Gives everyone the chance to hunt where they prefer and spread out pressure, etc. It also includes the westside in the conversation which is important. Things have changed drastically here also. Sure we have OTC branch bull, but be prepared to break out wallet for a private timber pass. Along with new computer, the fastest internet connection, and a prescription of xanax to acquire it. And your not gonna weed through the bulls, the first barely legal branch gets it. But it is an (very slim) opportunity to shoot the big one.

Category elimination is another good option.

   My favorite option wasn't on the list. Open eastside to OTC any bull harvest. Their is no end in sight, why are WDFW licensed hunters the ones constantly giving up things? Until real predator killing solutions are presented and the tribal harvest is more tightly controlled, EVERY option is loose tourniquet and not a real solution. I care deeply about the elk herds and the future of hunting in this state, but wake up is needed and we aren't getting it by furthering the restrictions on licensed hunters.

I appreciate you weighing in on how you would implement certain proposals. Making elk zones state wide is one of my favorite out of the proposals I came up with, however please read my response about tribes and predators.

I guess I'm not on here enough, but the amount of responses about natives hunting has been astounding. To dvolmer I would say you've disenchanted your misfortunes with a factor that I doubt is the main one when talking about rocky mountain elk herd declines. Do I think native impact is non-existent... no. But there were a lot of controllable things that happened in 2015,16, and 17 that were the main factors for the fact that our elk have been in decline. Again do I think these things I'm gonna list off had no impact... no but they are external factors that sportsman look to blame vs looking at the establishment that is managing the elk and our input as hunters.

1.)Was it predators that grew exponentially in 3 years that decimated our elk... unfortunately no, however nice that would be to blame it on. (also I'm feeling for the blue mountain elk herd cause I could see that becoming more of an issue than it already has.) The fact is that the bear population which likely has the most impact on elk calves in our three main herds has likely stayed the same in yakima and colockum for the past 20 years (most of those years these herds were well above objective). The blues have likely had a noticeable impact because people were use to bear depredation but as wolves began to prey on elk the impact starts to become noticeable. I am all for liberalizing predator hunting as I believe this state has an abundance, anything to help out the animals and our opportunity to chase them.  However, people learn to live with them until they feel like they start to have to much of an impact. How many people do you know who hate and complain about predators went out and put the time and effort into tagging two bears last year in the place that impacted their wildlife the most...? If you know someone that's great but that opportunity was liberalized and I bet most people went on with their lives.

2.) Was it natives... again I don't have any data on native harvest but I will look into it. The problem I have is that these herds were over objective if not at objective for 16 to 17 of the last 20 years... Were natives not hunting all those years? Oh they were, the must have just been doing it less... because it seems awfully convenient that all of a sudden they all banded together to destroy ( in reality we are actually only 800 animals below objective in the Yakima Herd, 100 under in the colockum, and 800 in the blues. Honestly the Blues concerns me but I have a strong feeling the other two will recover in no time. The are nowhere near destroyed, and the conservative nature of the WDFW and what I find to be their inaccurate surveying techniques in yakima and colockum have led to decreased opportunity. This isn't even the worst thing since I would rather us recover our elk than continue to over harvest. My concern is for opportunity compared to 2014 prior to any out of the ordinary biological stressors. Again I have the data to back this up.

3.) So what was the main reasons you ask... so we've already highlighted a drought in 2015. What does that do? Makes it more difficult for elk to put on weight prior to winter especially younger calves and 1.5 year old elk. Then you follow that up with 2 hard winters in a row. That alone would've had an impact. But wait what was interesting about 2015... Just look at the pictures I have attached. That years harvest in district 8 was anywhere from 500 to 900 antlerless elk higher than previous harvests. What happens when you harvest cows, they don't get to have their babies which affects calf recruitment in turn affecting the herds composition and health. These two main reasons impacted our herds in Washington, all while the continuous likely non changing stressors of predators, native harvest, etc... continued to happen. But when you have over objective elk herds for 16 out of 20 years and some factors were present all along while others weren't you better start looking there... And since I believe this is the main reason we are in our current situation I believe changing management techniques would have huge effects on herd health and lasting hunter opportunity because when they changed the regulation 26 years ago it definitely had impacts.

If you get on here and want to rage about how the natives or predators kill everything, I just want you to know they didn't show up just as our herds went into decline. They have been here all along. I am just doing the best with the hand I was dealt. If you'd rather continue to complain on a forum about things very much less in your control have fun that's you're right but no at the end of the day no positives are coming from it. I'm probably moving away soon to go enjoy opportunity in other states that I'm pretty sure have predators/natives but still manage to give their residents quality experiences throughout the year. In that time, I'd like to help out the people that have to stay here. If you think that those comments got to me and I'm sitting here raging your wrong, I just wanted to counter argue a point that seems to have come up a lot. If you post about natives after this good job, nothing constructive was added to the conversation

[villajac29]

Some images to back up argument

[blackveltbowhunter]

Villa if that is directed at me, and you thought my comments were meant to get under your skin, your wrong.

  Agree with your comments about excess antlerless take, WDFW is terrible about monitoring this tool.
   
  I said take my comments on eastside with a grain of salt. I extrapolate from your comments that you see the large winterkill as the main contributing factor? And that is why we are below target objectives?

   I am going to leave target objectives out. That in and of itself is a whole thread. Suffice it to say if objectives are low enough it always looks like herds are meeting or exceeding them. It doesn't mean management is sound.

  Predators are NOT controlled. Is that difficult to comprehend? If objectives for lions are high and objectives  for elk are low, we have a predator imbalance regardless of what WDFW tells you. It only takes a few excess predators to upset the balance. As for bears, yes I know and am one of several successful bear hunters that kill as many as possible. Again, how about state wide spring season, how about shoot on sight for cats. We have zones for cats like they are ungulates, and quotas to tightly manage them, yet they are known to travel outside those zones all the time. DUMB. Wolves. Don't get me started.

  But to the point is if winterkill is the main issue and predators, tribal harvest etc.... are not real contributing factors. Then why change? We should be good to go. Restrict tags for a couple years and let the herds bounce back. Resume business as usual.

   I wont bash natives or predators. They are doing what they do. I will bash WDFW, they do not listen to sportsmen, actual eyes and ears and boots in the field. They assume their computer data is more reliable. Both are needed to manage successfully, stop killing mamas for multiple years in a row. Re asses on a consistent basis. Evaluate and give reliable information on Tribal impacts and predation numbers. Be forthcoming about environmental impacts of certain chemicals and don't blow it off. Maybe its conspiracy, but when things change their is a reason, show some effort and action in figuring that out. That is not to much to ask.

[Karl Blanchard]

Kinda getting off track. Although point elimination is a good thing

   I have very little experience on the eastside, so take whatever I say in regards to hunting it with a grain of salt.

   Of the options listed I probably lean toward number 3. Gives everyone the chance to hunt where they prefer and spread out pressure, etc. It also includes the westside in the conversation which is important. Things have changed drastically here also. Sure we have OTC branch bull, but be prepared to break out wallet for a private timber pass. Along with new computer, the fastest internet connection, and a prescription of xanax to acquire it. And your not gonna weed through the bulls, the first barely legal branch gets it. But it is an (very slim) opportunity to shoot the big one.

Category elimination is another good option.

   My favorite option wasn't on the list. Open eastside to OTC any bull harvest. Their is no end in sight, why are WDFW licensed hunters the ones constantly giving up things? Until real predator killing solutions are presented and the tribal harvest is more tightly controlled, EVERY option is loose tourniquet and not a real solution. I care deeply about the elk herds and the future of hunting in this state, but wake up is needed and we aren't getting it by furthering the restrictions on licensed hunters.

I appreciate you weighing in on how you would implement certain proposals. Making elk zones state wide is one of my favorite out of the proposals I came up with, however please read my response about tribes and predators.

I guess I'm not on here enough, but the amount of responses about natives hunting has been astounding. To dvolmer I would say you've disenchanted your misfortunes with a factor that I doubt is the main one when talking about rocky mountain elk herd declines. Do I think native impact is non-existent... no. But there were a lot of controllable things that happened in 2015,16, and 17 that were the main factors for the fact that our elk have been in decline. Again do I think these things I'm gonna list off had no impact... no but they are external factors that sportsman look to blame vs looking at the establishment that is managing the elk and our input as hunters.

1.)Was it predators that grew exponentially in 3 years that decimated our elk... unfortunately no, however nice that would be to blame it on. (also I'm feeling for the blue mountain elk herd cause I could see that becoming more of an issue than it already has.) The fact is that the bear population which likely has the most impact on elk calves in our three main herds has likely stayed the same in yakima and colockum for the past 20 years (most of those years these herds were well above objective). The blues have likely had a noticeable impact because people were use to bear depredation but as wolves began to prey on elk the impact starts to become noticeable. I am all for liberalizing predator hunting as I believe this state has an abundance, anything to help out the animals and our opportunity to chase them.  However, people learn to live with them until they feel like they start to have to much of an impact. How many people do you know who hate and complain about predators went out and put the time and effort into tagging two bears last year in the place that impacted their wildlife the most...? If you know someone that's great but that opportunity was liberalized and I bet most people went on with their lives.

2.) Was it natives... again I don't have any data on native harvest but I will look into it. The problem I have is that these herds were over objective if not at objective for 16 to 17 of the last 20 years... Were natives not hunting all those years? Oh they were, the must have just been doing it less... because it seems awfully convenient that all of a sudden they all banded together to destroy ( in reality we are actually only 800 animals below objective in the Yakima Herd, 100 under in the colockum, and 800 in the blues. Honestly the Blues concerns me but I have a strong feeling the other two will recover in no time. The are nowhere near destroyed, and the conservative nature of the WDFW and what I find to be their inaccurate surveying techniques in yakima and colockum have led to decreased opportunity. This isn't even the worst thing since I would rather us recover our elk than continue to over harvest. My concern is for opportunity compared to 2014 prior to any out of the ordinary biological stressors. Again I have the data to back this up.

3.) So what was the main reasons you ask... so we've already highlighted a drought in 2015. What does that do? Makes it more difficult for elk to put on weight prior to winter especially younger calves and 1.5 year old elk. Then you follow that up with 2 hard winters in a row. That alone would've had an impact. But wait what was interesting about 2015... Just look at the pictures I have attached. That years harvest in district 8 was anywhere from 500 to 900 antlerless elk higher than previous harvests. What happens when you harvest cows, they don't get to have their babies which affects calf recruitment in turn affecting the herds composition and health. These two main reasons impacted our herds in Washington, all while the continuous likely non changing stressors of predators, native harvest, etc... continued to happen. But when you have over objective elk herds for 16 out of 20 years and some factors were present all along while others weren't you better start looking there... And since I believe this is the main reason we are in our current situation I believe changing management techniques would have huge effects on herd health and lasting hunter opportunity because when they changed the regulation 26 years ago it definitely had impacts.

If you get on here and want to rage about how the natives or predators kill everything, I just want you to know they didn't show up just as our herds went into decline. They have been here all along. I am just doing the best with the hand I was dealt. If you'd rather continue to complain on a forum about things very much less in your control have fun that's you're right but no at the end of the day no positives are coming from it. I'm probably moving away soon to go enjoy opportunity in other states that I'm pretty sure have predators/natives but still manage to give their residents quality experiences throughout the year. In that time, I'd like to help out the people that have to stay here. If you think that those comments got to me and I'm sitting here raging your wrong, I just wanted to counter argue a point that seems to have come up a lot. If you post about natives after this good job, nothing constructive was added to the conversation

  this is so insanely spot on!!! I've been saying this same thing on here for years but people choose to ignore it.

The severe tag cuts in the last few years are completely unjustified. I can't speak to the blues but the 300 series GMU's are doing just fine. WDFW keeps phoning it in on their counts which in turn affects tag allocations. Elk populations may be slightly down but people choose to ignore the fact that we are still living in the golden age of elk in WA state. Just a few short years ago we were hunting RECORD numbers of elk. Since we were so far over herd objectives wdfw went full retard on cow permits for a 3 year cycle and follow that up with the nastiest winter kill we have had since 96 and all of a sudden we are a few thousand animals under objective. We bounced right back but due to a couple of winters where counting was difficult due to lack of weather and wdfw just punts the ball and says bull numbers are way down. Well no they weren't down, they just weren't eating hay at oak creek. If there is no weather to move those bulls they aren't coming down. I was finding bachelor groups of bulls above 4,000ft last winter. One had over 30 bulls in it.

Keep it otc but let's get better and counting animals. We cannot rely on ONLY flying historic wintering areas because that doesn't always work. There's no doubt that a plane is 100% the best tool when conditions are right but if the snow doesn't come and those elk hang in those secondary ridges above the wintering areas where timber makes spotting elk from a plane difficult to impossible....well we need to figure out a better way 

Don't get me started on mule deer though

[villajac29]

Villa if that is directed at me, and you thought my comments were meant to get under your skin, your wrong.

  Agree with your comments about excess antlerless take, WDFW is terrible about monitoring this tool.
   
  I said take my comments on eastside with a grain of salt. I extrapolate from your comments that you see the large winterkill as the main contributing factor? And that is why we are below target objectives?

   I am going to leave target objectives out. That in and of itself is a whole thread. Suffice it to say if objectives are low enough it always looks like herds are meeting or exceeding them. It doesn't mean management is sound.

  Predators are NOT controlled. Is that difficult to comprehend? If objectives for lions are high and objectives  for elk are low, we have a predator imbalance regardless of what WDFW tells you. It only takes a few excess predators to upset the balance. As for bears, yes I know and am one of several successful bear hunters that kill as many as possible. Again, how about state wide spring season, how about shoot on sight for cats. We have zones for cats like they are ungulates, and quotas to tightly manage them, yet they are known to travel outside those zones all the time. DUMB. Wolves. Don't get me started.

  But to the point is if winterkill is the main issue and predators, tribal harvest etc.... are not real contributing factors. Then why change? We should be good to go. Restrict tags for a couple years and let the herds bounce back. Resume business as usual.

   I wont bash natives or predators. They are doing what they do. I will bash WDFW, they do not listen to sportsmen, actual eyes and ears and boots in the field. They assume their computer data is more reliable. Both are needed to manage successfully, stop killing mamas for multiple years in a row. Re asses on a consistent basis. Evaluate and give reliable information on Tribal impacts and predation numbers. Be forthcoming about environmental impacts of certain chemicals and don't blow it off. Maybe its conspiracy, but when things change their is a reason, show some effort and action in figuring that out. That is not to much to ask.

Sorry I didn't think you were attacking me at all and I actually appreciated your response Black Velvet. I copy and pasted that response from a thread where everyone was going on and on about natives killing all the elk. I do think that predators and native harvest are contributing factors just like anything that results in elk fatality. As far as objectives go I experienced pretty good elk densities every where I had been in 2014-2017 while hunting the east side. Despite your disagreement with objective numbers they were solid enough to provide OTC elk hunting opportunities. What I meant by the data I attached is all the other factors including predators and natives were present while numbers were actually pretty good to support these opportunities. Then non normal conditions including high cow harvest and rough environmental conditions came along and it tipped the system to where it no longer supports many of the OTC opportunities previously enjoyed.

I would again like for more liberal predator seasons but specifically don't see it as a huge issue as they have never been destructive in my opinion. Wolves will likely change that but bears and cougars along don't destroy ungulate populations.

I would like change because even before diminished herds opportunity was pretty poor. Business as usual sucks. Little to no chance of drawing tags and poor success rates and high competition in the woods. Increasing draw odds is very achievable, again I look to Nevada as a source of inspiration. They have great statistics despite having only 13000 elk total. Their residents get a guarantee at drawing tags, something we don't get especially rifle hunters as this system has aged. And when they draw tags it is a truly "Quality" experience.

I see many of the trends you refer to in the WDFW lack of flexibility to provide residents a voice and influence in management. I wish they would develop better models and be more forthcoming but I don't think they are completely unreachable. I have talked with multiple people from the agency and they would like to see some changes to improve quality of opportunity but get push back from people that feel that OTC hunting is a right. Its possible that the truth is that we might not have enough elk to provide quality OTC opportunity to every resident every year. Many states have come to that conclusion and function well on those models. It's not a crazy idea to make a draw only system and see benefits. Some of the best elk hunting states are draw only and the ones that aren't have much larger elk herds and fewer residents than washington by a long shot. I have done hours of research on this topic and feel that if we could make these changes experiences in Washington would be effected for the better. But I'm one person and this is the reason I am asking these questions.

Sorry for making you feel targeted, not my intention. Thanks for a discussion using logic and not emotion!!

[villajac29]

Kinda getting off track. Although point elimination is a good thing

   I have very little experience on the eastside, so take whatever I say in regards to hunting it with a grain of salt.

   Of the options listed I probably lean toward number 3. Gives everyone the chance to hunt where they prefer and spread out pressure, etc. It also includes the westside in the conversation which is important. Things have changed drastically here also. Sure we have OTC branch bull, but be prepared to break out wallet for a private timber pass. Along with new computer, the fastest internet connection, and a prescription of xanax to acquire it. And your not gonna weed through the bulls, the first barely legal branch gets it. But it is an (very slim) opportunity to shoot the big one.

Category elimination is another good option.

   My favorite option wasn't on the list. Open eastside to OTC any bull harvest. Their is no end in sight, why are WDFW licensed hunters the ones constantly giving up things? Until real predator killing solutions are presented and the tribal harvest is more tightly controlled, EVERY option is loose tourniquet and not a real solution. I care deeply about the elk herds and the future of hunting in this state, but wake up is needed and we aren't getting it by furthering the restrictions on licensed hunters.

I appreciate you weighing in on how you would implement certain proposals. Making elk zones state wide is one of my favorite out of the proposals I came up with, however please read my response about tribes and predators.

I guess I'm not on here enough, but the amount of responses about natives hunting has been astounding. To dvolmer I would say you've disenchanted your misfortunes with a factor that I doubt is the main one when talking about rocky mountain elk herd declines. Do I think native impact is non-existent... no. But there were a lot of controllable things that happened in 2015,16, and 17 that were the main factors for the fact that our elk have been in decline. Again do I think these things I'm gonna list off had no impact... no but they are external factors that sportsman look to blame vs looking at the establishment that is managing the elk and our input as hunters.

1.)Was it predators that grew exponentially in 3 years that decimated our elk... unfortunately no, however nice that would be to blame it on. (also I'm feeling for the blue mountain elk herd cause I could see that becoming more of an issue than it already has.) The fact is that the bear population which likely has the most impact on elk calves in our three main herds has likely stayed the same in yakima and colockum for the past 20 years (most of those years these herds were well above objective). The blues have likely had a noticeable impact because people were use to bear depredation but as wolves began to prey on elk the impact starts to become noticeable. I am all for liberalizing predator hunting as I believe this state has an abundance, anything to help out the animals and our opportunity to chase them.  However, people learn to live with them until they feel like they start to have to much of an impact. How many people do you know who hate and complain about predators went out and put the time and effort into tagging two bears last year in the place that impacted their wildlife the most...? If you know someone that's great but that opportunity was liberalized and I bet most people went on with their lives.

2.) Was it natives... again I don't have any data on native harvest but I will look into it. The problem I have is that these herds were over objective if not at objective for 16 to 17 of the last 20 years... Were natives not hunting all those years? Oh they were, the must have just been doing it less... because it seems awfully convenient that all of a sudden they all banded together to destroy ( in reality we are actually only 800 animals below objective in the Yakima Herd, 100 under in the colockum, and 800 in the blues. Honestly the Blues concerns me but I have a strong feeling the other two will recover in no time. The are nowhere near destroyed, and the conservative nature of the WDFW and what I find to be their inaccurate surveying techniques in yakima and colockum have led to decreased opportunity. This isn't even the worst thing since I would rather us recover our elk than continue to over harvest. My concern is for opportunity compared to 2014 prior to any out of the ordinary biological stressors. Again I have the data to back this up.

3.) So what was the main reasons you ask... so we've already highlighted a drought in 2015. What does that do? Makes it more difficult for elk to put on weight prior to winter especially younger calves and 1.5 year old elk. Then you follow that up with 2 hard winters in a row. That alone would've had an impact. But wait what was interesting about 2015... Just look at the pictures I have attached. That years harvest in district 8 was anywhere from 500 to 900 antlerless elk higher than previous harvests. What happens when you harvest cows, they don't get to have their babies which affects calf recruitment in turn affecting the herds composition and health. These two main reasons impacted our herds in Washington, all while the continuous likely non changing stressors of predators, native harvest, etc... continued to happen. But when you have over objective elk herds for 16 out of 20 years and some factors were present all along while others weren't you better start looking there... And since I believe this is the main reason we are in our current situation I believe changing management techniques would have huge effects on herd health and lasting hunter opportunity because when they changed the regulation 26 years ago it definitely had impacts.

If you get on here and want to rage about how the natives or predators kill everything, I just want you to know they didn't show up just as our herds went into decline. They have been here all along. I am just doing the best with the hand I was dealt. If you'd rather continue to complain on a forum about things very much less in your control have fun that's you're right but no at the end of the day no positives are coming from it. I'm probably moving away soon to go enjoy opportunity in other states that I'm pretty sure have predators/natives but still manage to give their residents quality experiences throughout the year. In that time, I'd like to help out the people that have to stay here. If you think that those comments got to me and I'm sitting here raging your wrong, I just wanted to counter argue a point that seems to have come up a lot. If you post about natives after this good job, nothing constructive was added to the conversation

  this is so insanely spot on!!! I've been saying this same thing on here for years but people choose to ignore it.

The severe tag cuts in the last few years are completely unjustified. I can't speak to the blues but the 300 series GMU's are doing just fine. WDFW keeps phoning it in on their counts which in turn affects tag allocations. Elk populations may be slightly down but people choose to ignore the fact that we are still living in the golden age of elk in WA state. Just a few short years ago we were hunting RECORD numbers of elk. Since we were so far over herd objectives wdfw went full retard on cow permits for a 3 year cycle and follow that up with the nastiest winter kill we have had since 96 and all of a sudden we are a few thousand animals under objective. We bounced right back but due to a couple of winters where counting was difficult due to lack of weather and wdfw just punts the ball and says bull numbers are way down. Well no they weren't down, they just weren't eating hay at oak creek. If there is no weather to move those bulls they aren't coming down. I was finding bachelor groups of bulls above 4,000ft last winter. One had over 30 bulls in it.

Keep it otc but let's get better and counting animals. We cannot rely on ONLY flying historic wintering areas because that doesn't always work. There's no doubt that a plane is 100% the best tool when conditions are right but if the snow doesn't come and those elk hang in those secondary ridges above the wintering areas where timber makes spotting elk from a plane difficult to impossible....well we need to figure out a better way 

Don't get me started on mule deer though

The Bull to cow ratios are extremely frustrating. I hope you heard the podcast cause I went into this topic more thoroughly basically saying the same things you are. I saw bulls at 5000 ft in march this year. The bull to cow ratios have to be higher for so many reasons.

You should look into Nevadas model more because it will show you what happens when you manage for a draw only system with a similar amount of elk. You may love hunting spikes but I don't particularly love chasing the dumbest elk on the mountain competing with everyone and their mother to kill them. 

[idahohuntr]

Kinda getting off track. Although point elimination is a good thing

   I have very little experience on the eastside, so take whatever I say in regards to hunting it with a grain of salt.

   Of the options listed I probably lean toward number 3. Gives everyone the chance to hunt where they prefer and spread out pressure, etc. It also includes the westside in the conversation which is important. Things have changed drastically here also. Sure we have OTC branch bull, but be prepared to break out wallet for a private timber pass. Along with new computer, the fastest internet connection, and a prescription of xanax to acquire it. And your not gonna weed through the bulls, the first barely legal branch gets it. But it is an (very slim) opportunity to shoot the big one.

Category elimination is another good option.

   My favorite option wasn't on the list. Open eastside to OTC any bull harvest. Their is no end in sight, why are WDFW licensed hunters the ones constantly giving up things? Until real predator killing solutions are presented and the tribal harvest is more tightly controlled, EVERY option is loose tourniquet and not a real solution. I care deeply about the elk herds and the future of hunting in this state, but wake up is needed and we aren't getting it by furthering the restrictions on licensed hunters.

I appreciate you weighing in on how you would implement certain proposals. Making elk zones state wide is one of my favorite out of the proposals I came up with, however please read my response about tribes and predators.

I guess I'm not on here enough, but the amount of responses about natives hunting has been astounding. To dvolmer I would say you've disenchanted your misfortunes with a factor that I doubt is the main one when talking about rocky mountain elk herd declines. Do I think native impact is non-existent... no. But there were a lot of controllable things that happened in 2015,16, and 17 that were the main factors for the fact that our elk have been in decline. Again do I think these things I'm gonna list off had no impact... no but they are external factors that sportsman look to blame vs looking at the establishment that is managing the elk and our input as hunters.

1.)Was it predators that grew exponentially in 3 years that decimated our elk... unfortunately no, however nice that would be to blame it on. (also I'm feeling for the blue mountain elk herd cause I could see that becoming more of an issue than it already has.) The fact is that the bear population which likely has the most impact on elk calves in our three main herds has likely stayed the same in yakima and colockum for the past 20 years (most of those years these herds were well above objective). The blues have likely had a noticeable impact because people were use to bear depredation but as wolves began to prey on elk the impact starts to become noticeable. I am all for liberalizing predator hunting as I believe this state has an abundance, anything to help out the animals and our opportunity to chase them.  However, people learn to live with them until they feel like they start to have to much of an impact. How many people do you know who hate and complain about predators went out and put the time and effort into tagging two bears last year in the place that impacted their wildlife the most...? If you know someone that's great but that opportunity was liberalized and I bet most people went on with their lives.

2.) Was it natives... again I don't have any data on native harvest but I will look into it. The problem I have is that these herds were over objective if not at objective for 16 to 17 of the last 20 years... Were natives not hunting all those years? Oh they were, the must have just been doing it less... because it seems awfully convenient that all of a sudden they all banded together to destroy ( in reality we are actually only 800 animals below objective in the Yakima Herd, 100 under in the colockum, and 800 in the blues. Honestly the Blues concerns me but I have a strong feeling the other two will recover in no time. The are nowhere near destroyed, and the conservative nature of the WDFW and what I find to be their inaccurate surveying techniques in yakima and colockum have led to decreased opportunity. This isn't even the worst thing since I would rather us recover our elk than continue to over harvest. My concern is for opportunity compared to 2014 prior to any out of the ordinary biological stressors. Again I have the data to back this up.

3.) So what was the main reasons you ask... so we've already highlighted a drought in 2015. What does that do? Makes it more difficult for elk to put on weight prior to winter especially younger calves and 1.5 year old elk. Then you follow that up with 2 hard winters in a row. That alone would've had an impact. But wait what was interesting about 2015... Just look at the pictures I have attached. That years harvest in district 8 was anywhere from 500 to 900 antlerless elk higher than previous harvests. What happens when you harvest cows, they don't get to have their babies which affects calf recruitment in turn affecting the herds composition and health. These two main reasons impacted our herds in Washington, all while the continuous likely non changing stressors of predators, native harvest, etc... continued to happen. But when you have over objective elk herds for 16 out of 20 years and some factors were present all along while others weren't you better start looking there... And since I believe this is the main reason we are in our current situation I believe changing management techniques would have huge effects on herd health and lasting hunter opportunity because when they changed the regulation 26 years ago it definitely had impacts.

If you get on here and want to rage about how the natives or predators kill everything, I just want you to know they didn't show up just as our herds went into decline. They have been here all along. I am just doing the best with the hand I was dealt. If you'd rather continue to complain on a forum about things very much less in your control have fun that's you're right but no at the end of the day no positives are coming from it. I'm probably moving away soon to go enjoy opportunity in other states that I'm pretty sure have predators/natives but still manage to give their residents quality experiences throughout the year. In that time, I'd like to help out the people that have to stay here. If you think that those comments got to me and I'm sitting here raging your wrong, I just wanted to counter argue a point that seems to have come up a lot. If you post about natives after this good job, nothing constructive was added to the conversation

Great points villajac.  One of the issues with all the complexities that influence wildlife is that its far easier for people to point to the factors they can easily see and give them disproportionate attention.  People see big bulls laying dead in a truck being drive by a Native American.  People find and see dead elk that were killed and chewed on by predators.  What's much harder to see is the effect of invasive weeds, drought, and tough winters reducing forage and nutrition and recruitment into a population.  That is much, much less obvious to most and even though it is an overwhelming factor folks can't see it as easily as they can the facebook posts of tribal harvest or a pack of wolves chewing on a 6pt bull. 

[villajac29]

Kinda getting off track. Although point elimination is a good thing

   I have very little experience on the eastside, so take whatever I say in regards to hunting it with a grain of salt.

   Of the options listed I probably lean toward number 3. Gives everyone the chance to hunt where they prefer and spread out pressure, etc. It also includes the westside in the conversation which is important. Things have changed drastically here also. Sure we have OTC branch bull, but be prepared to break out wallet for a private timber pass. Along with new computer, the fastest internet connection, and a prescription of xanax to acquire it. And your not gonna weed through the bulls, the first barely legal branch gets it. But it is an (very slim) opportunity to shoot the big one.

Category elimination is another good option.

   My favorite option wasn't on the list. Open eastside to OTC any bull harvest. Their is no end in sight, why are WDFW licensed hunters the ones constantly giving up things? Until real predator killing solutions are presented and the tribal harvest is more tightly controlled, EVERY option is loose tourniquet and not a real solution. I care deeply about the elk herds and the future of hunting in this state, but wake up is needed and we aren't getting it by furthering the restrictions on licensed hunters.

I appreciate you weighing in on how you would implement certain proposals. Making elk zones state wide is one of my favorite out of the proposals I came up with, however please read my response about tribes and predators.

I guess I'm not on here enough, but the amount of responses about natives hunting has been astounding. To dvolmer I would say you've disenchanted your misfortunes with a factor that I doubt is the main one when talking about rocky mountain elk herd declines. Do I think native impact is non-existent... no. But there were a lot of controllable things that happened in 2015,16, and 17 that were the main factors for the fact that our elk have been in decline. Again do I think these things I'm gonna list off had no impact... no but they are external factors that sportsman look to blame vs looking at the establishment that is managing the elk and our input as hunters.

1.)Was it predators that grew exponentially in 3 years that decimated our elk... unfortunately no, however nice that would be to blame it on. (also I'm feeling for the blue mountain elk herd cause I could see that becoming more of an issue than it already has.) The fact is that the bear population which likely has the most impact on elk calves in our three main herds has likely stayed the same in yakima and colockum for the past 20 years (most of those years these herds were well above objective). The blues have likely had a noticeable impact because people were use to bear depredation but as wolves began to prey on elk the impact starts to become noticeable. I am all for liberalizing predator hunting as I believe this state has an abundance, anything to help out the animals and our opportunity to chase them.  However, people learn to live with them until they feel like they start to have to much of an impact. How many people do you know who hate and complain about predators went out and put the time and effort into tagging two bears last year in the place that impacted their wildlife the most...? If you know someone that's great but that opportunity was liberalized and I bet most people went on with their lives.

2.) Was it natives... again I don't have any data on native harvest but I will look into it. The problem I have is that these herds were over objective if not at objective for 16 to 17 of the last 20 years... Were natives not hunting all those years? Oh they were, the must have just been doing it less... because it seems awfully convenient that all of a sudden they all banded together to destroy ( in reality we are actually only 800 animals below objective in the Yakima Herd, 100 under in the colockum, and 800 in the blues. Honestly the Blues concerns me but I have a strong feeling the other two will recover in no time. The are nowhere near destroyed, and the conservative nature of the WDFW and what I find to be their inaccurate surveying techniques in yakima and colockum have led to decreased opportunity. This isn't even the worst thing since I would rather us recover our elk than continue to over harvest. My concern is for opportunity compared to 2014 prior to any out of the ordinary biological stressors. Again I have the data to back this up.

3.) So what was the main reasons you ask... so we've already highlighted a drought in 2015. What does that do? Makes it more difficult for elk to put on weight prior to winter especially younger calves and 1.5 year old elk. Then you follow that up with 2 hard winters in a row. That alone would've had an impact. But wait what was interesting about 2015... Just look at the pictures I have attached. That years harvest in district 8 was anywhere from 500 to 900 antlerless elk higher than previous harvests. What happens when you harvest cows, they don't get to have their babies which affects calf recruitment in turn affecting the herds composition and health. These two main reasons impacted our herds in Washington, all while the continuous likely non changing stressors of predators, native harvest, etc... continued to happen. But when you have over objective elk herds for 16 out of 20 years and some factors were present all along while others weren't you better start looking there... And since I believe this is the main reason we are in our current situation I believe changing management techniques would have huge effects on herd health and lasting hunter opportunity because when they changed the regulation 26 years ago it definitely had impacts.

If you get on here and want to rage about how the natives or predators kill everything, I just want you to know they didn't show up just as our herds went into decline. They have been here all along. I am just doing the best with the hand I was dealt. If you'd rather continue to complain on a forum about things very much less in your control have fun that's you're right but no at the end of the day no positives are coming from it. I'm probably moving away soon to go enjoy opportunity in other states that I'm pretty sure have predators/natives but still manage to give their residents quality experiences throughout the year. In that time, I'd like to help out the people that have to stay here. If you think that those comments got to me and I'm sitting here raging your wrong, I just wanted to counter argue a point that seems to have come up a lot. If you post about natives after this good job, nothing constructive was added to the conversation

Great points villajac.  One of the issues with all the complexities that influence wildlife is that its far easier for people to point to the factors they can easily see and give them disproportionate attention.  People see big bulls laying dead in a truck being drive by a Native American.  People find and see dead elk that were killed and chewed on by predators.  What's much harder to see is the effect of invasive weeds, drought, and tough winters reducing forage and nutrition and recruitment into a population.  That is much, much less obvious to most and even though it is an overwhelming factor folks can't see it as easily as they can the facebook posts of tribal harvest or a pack of wolves chewing on a 6pt bull. 

Thanks for the support! I appreciate it. People also like to go after factors that are so much harder to influence. We operate with in the state system as resident hunters and as much as it doesn't seem like the WDFW listens to us, if we can get behind something that we can control there is likely gonna be change. That's how government organizations see change. I'll say it again looking for more opportunity in a system thats already strict and provides little like "getting the same seasons as the natives" is like looting to promote equality. It doesn't make any sense! We can however structure opportunity so that it benefits hunters with potentially not endless opportunity that OTC provides but more "quality management" that draw only states like Nevada/Arizona/New Mexico enjoy. Residents hunt there on regular basis despite local beliefs and if I'm correct have less elk and way more outside pressure from non residents to match our hunter numbers. People act as if draw only is the end of days but I truly think it will make things better and honestly anything is better than the way the system is currently so why not try it out rather than throwing are hands in the air and accepting the bare minimum...

[Karl Blanchard]

Slow down there sparky! I never said I was fine with spike only hunting. All I was saying is that current permit numbers are a joke and need to be dealt with as a first step.

Second, you cannot compare WA to a state like MT or NV. I've been out of state hunting for 20 years, usually 4 or 5 states a year. I'm well versed in all states draw systems and management practices. WA has less carrying capacity, less animals, and absurdly more hunters. Those reasons alone should justify a draw only system but until wdfw fix hiw they go about counting animals, setting seasons, and tag allotments, I'm not gonna give them the freedom to implement something like a draw only system.

As for the podcast, no I did not listen. I don't listen to any hunting podcasts, not even the ones that I've been on  I'll give it a listen though 

[villajac29]

Slow down there sparky! I never said I was fine with spike only hunting. All I was saying is that current permit numbers are a joke and need to be dealt with as a first step.

Second, you cannot compare WA to a state like MT or NV. I've been out of state hunting for 20 years, usually 4 or 5 states a year. I'm well versed in all states draw systems and management practices. WA has less carrying capacity, less animals, and absurdly more hunters. Those reasons alone should justify a draw only system but until wdfw fix hiw they go about counting animals, setting seasons, and tag allotments, I'm not gonna give them the freedom to implement something like a draw only system.

As for the podcast, no I did not listen. I don't listen to any hunting podcasts, not even the ones that I've been on  I'll give it a listen though 

I don't think montana and washington are comparable at all. But Nevada is highly comparable. Nevada has less elk by ~40,000 than washington. Technically their resident to elk number is higher at 230 residents to 1 elk compared to WA 125 residents/elk. That paired with a nearly identical draw only system on a bonus point draw. I don't know if you get more comparable with any state. As far as giving up more control to the WDFW, I think that is a concern of all of us. I highlight their survey techniques in the podcast and how inaccurate they likely are especially in colockum and yakima. Don't care if you listen or not just think it would help you understand my arguments better. Also not trying to flex like I'm some bigshot  for doing a podcast, anyone can do a podcast. I just put a lot of research into this particular discussion and think it may help people understand my point of view better.

[Karl Blanchard]

It's also near impossible to draw a tag in NV. They have more draw tags because that's all they have. The two states are on vastly different scales.

Another thing to consider when rolling tmaround the ideas of increasing branch bull harvest 10 fold is loss of age class and trophy quality which is primarily why we all want to hunt branch bulls in the first place. I can remember pre spike only and a 4yo 5 point was considered a whopper. Now we have some of the best top end bulls in the entire world.  We open that up to 3pt or better or similar and that's all gone within 3 seasons.

Like I said before, I think we are mostly on the same page here, I just want to see more wdfw effort because they can't even handle tag allocations as is, let alone large scale. There was a guy on this forum a few years back that was down the same rabbit hole as you. He was a sharp guy and a great thinker. He had very similar conclusions as you and also articulated them well. Keep it up, just don't put the cart in front of the horse