Parks dept. killing off all alpine area fish

[Alchase]

They say bringing fish in is not "natural".
If they have their way Trail Blazers are history.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009027452_apwafishstockingcascades.html

[rasbo]

well then no trails,no park rangers,no hikers.no motor vehicals.no toll boths to take money,silly argument..nothing about park operations is natural

[Dmanmastertracker]

 Just as long as they realize, the eagles, osprey and other species depending of those fish will be impacted and that the State's budget will also be impacted as many who buy fishing licenses only do so because they fish those hike in lakes, than it is a good idea .
 This is the same dam debate that get's me upset about hatcheries being evil, every last ounce of salmonid's in this State has already been affected by hatcheries in one way or another, the gene pool is already mixed, the important thing now, is to view our resources as a whole and not to experience a net loss. This is a net loss, plain and simple. One of my fondest memories as a kid was mountain lake fishing with pops, where?? In a mountain lake in MRNP with no fish historically. If the lakes are not connected by stream to an affected watershed, than there is no scientific support to back up their position.

[Mauser]

I wonder if that is a "natural wilderness pesticide?"

[Dmanmastertracker]

 

 I didn't even think of that, -by the way, let's pollute the hell out of the water.... 

[Happy Gilmore]

saw some show on TV last week about trout in high lakes in CA. They said the lakes never had fish until the 1940's or something. Now the frogs are dying and they are starting to take the fish out of the lake.....goofy stuff....

[wazzuhunter]

every last ounce of salmonid's in this State has already been affected by hatcheries in one way or another, the gene pool is already mixed, the important thing now, is to view our resources as a whole and not to experience a net loss.

 

The gene pool has already been messed with so much that hatcheries are the only way to reestablish fisheries in some streams.

[clindsayrun]

"Nonnative fish affect zooplankton." Oh my god, the world is ending!

I can't stand these people.

[rosscrazyelk]

Ken Schram just did a piece on this .. He admitted he has never even has fished but can't believe people want to do this.. I do not agree with him alot but i like what he said today.

[chukarchaser]

Almost crashed my car when I heard Schram.  Could not believe I agreed with him.  Now if we can just get people to stop refereeing to them as conservationists.  Hunters are conservationists, these people are Environmentalists and whacko's at that. and

[Curly]

It's one thing to decide not to stock the lakes anymore, but to say they will use pesticide or gill net the fish that are in there............ Crazy......

[ICEMAN]

Just go back later and put some back.....


My bad! Did I just say that?

[fishing is for fools]

    Let's just take all the fun out of it.  Why have kids?

[Jerbear]

Doc Hastings and others from congress are trying to get this stopped.  They introduced a bill last year, but it didn't get out out of committee.  This is getting so damn insane, you have to wonder if they are trying to destroy everything the average working guy enjoys.

[popeshawnpaul]

This is ridiculous.  Trails aren't natural as well as roads.  Let's take them out.  Your park service job isn't natural, let's take that out...   

[magnanimous_j]

If you go back far enough, the only natural life anywhere exists in little tidal pools by the ocean.

Since humans are not native to North America until they were unnaturally moved here 10K years ago, can I poison some of them?

Ecosystems are living, fluid, things. Today's invasive species is tomorrow's cornerstone of the local system.

[Alchase]

This should scare the crap out of all of us.
If they are allowed to do this, they will have an indirect precedent to shutting down all lake plants and river hatchery's for the same logic.

And yes this "is" the agenda being pushed.

[Happy Gilmore]

One of my best friends works for F&W at the Chelan Hatchery as a fish hatchery tech and is responsible for planting many of the high lakes. The fish are usually backpacked or dropped from small planes. He said the mortality of the fingerling plants is high when dropped or backpacked.

It is probably partially a cost issue. Without planting, the fish probably wouldn't maintain on their own. This probably isn't true with all mountain lakes but, he said many of the lakes he plants don't have very many carryover fish because of the low food content in the lakes.

[Buckshot Bill]

WOW!  Would be trully a shame if they don't continue to stock those lakes.  I have many friends that love to go up and hike and fish the high lakes.  Just wonder who these people are that think their ideas and ways of thinking are what's right and the rest are wrong.  Hope this doesn't go thru

[TONTO]

If there was ever a gene pool in trouble it's ours these people are whack jobs.I am a conservationist,it's these damn preservationists that cause all the problems.I don't give a damn how pristine the waters are if there are no fish why would I even want to hike in there.Next will be a buffer zone to keep the hikers from getting too close to the water.Assanine is about the only word I can come up with to describe this way of thinking.

[boneaddict]

Funny thing is we employ these people.

[fishing is for fools]

    Next thing you know they will want you to pack out you own poop.

[rasbo]

    Next thing you know they will want you to pack out you own poop.

what you dont

[boneaddict]

No pooping permited in wilderness areas.....OH CRUD, I just gave them another Idea for a permit.

[fishseeker]

I remember when the created N Cascades NP. There was quite an uproar when they stoped planting lakes in the park, They were not NATURAL in the high lakes. Some people would kinda sneak fish in!

[Alpine Mojo]

One of my best friends works for F&W at the Chelan Hatchery as a fish hatchery tech and is responsible for planting many of the high lakes. The fish are usually backpacked or dropped from small planes. He said the mortality of the fingerling plants is high when dropped or backpacked.

It is probably partially a cost issue. Without planting, the fish probably wouldn't maintain on their own. This probably isn't true with all mountain lakes but, he said many of the lakes he plants don't have very many carryover fish because of the low food content in the lakes.

Mortality of those planted fish is dependent on how they are handled in transit.  Airborne plants have shown a very high success rate.  I would be curious to know what your friend considers high mortality.

The WDFW high lake stocking program is the most cost effective of any around.  Raised in the hatchery only to fry stage and planted by volunteers, it has the lowest cost per fish of any stocking program in the state.

Also, there are more carryover fish than you may realize.  When you factor in the rather low supply of available food in some alpine lakes and the short summer season, a carryover fish several years old may have reached only 5 or 6 inches in length.  If you compare that to the carryover trout you are used to catching in the lowland lakes, it is apples and oranges.

If it was up to me, I would continue stocking inside the park boundary.  Keep in mind that when the NCNP was formed in 1968, one of the provisions in the legislation was that the park service was to allow continued stocking of specific lakes.  Lakes that had been stocked for generations.  If you are to consider these fish "unnatural" then you must consider boot tracks and tire tread unnatural just the same.  Since human presence is not a part of the natural ecology up there, does that mean that some day we may find the whole of the Cascades fenced off to keep society out?  How far do these people want to go in the name of preservation?

[Smokepole]

Having dealt with the Parks and U.S. Forest Service, and other federal agencies, I understand fully the motivation to eliminate trout from our high lakes.  It is a total power trip.  Some big wig gets a unique idea and pushes his/her agenda.  I feel strongly that it is the responsibility of us sportsman to put a stop to this crime because:

1-  Removing trout from our high lakes will damage our Pacific Northwest heritage.  High lake trout fishing is an historic cultural tradition in Washington State.

2-  Planting of trout in our northwest high lakes has been performed by volunteers for over 100 years, and funded by our WDFW license purchases.  The trout do not belong to the park... they are property of us sportsman, and the men and women  who donated their time and sweat to create this unique fishing opportunity.

3-  It is known that trout have been sporadically introduced to many bodies of water by birds, animals, and man for centuries without undue harm to fragile ecosystems.  Therefore, removing trout for environmental reasons is mute.

4-  It will cost taxpayer dollars to "renovate" these lakes.  The last I heard, our country was broke, isn't it?

To all my friends here on Hunting-Washington, please put your foot down.  Encourage your congressman to protect our traditions.  Contact the highest authority in the Parks Service you can, and be heard.  I have studied the high lake program, and researched/written magazine articles about this fishery, so if I can help in any way please site mail me.

Disappointed, mostly for my children and grandchildren.

Kevin Miller
 

[woodswalker]

If there was ever a gene pool in trouble it's ours these people are whack jobs.I am a conservationist,it's these damn preservationists that cause all the problems.I don't give a damn how pristine the waters are if there are no fish why would I even want to hike in there.Next will be a buffer zone to keep the hikers from getting too close to the water.Assanine is about the only word I can come up with to describe this way of thinking.

Already THERE with camping...please follow the following regulations: Cross-country zones begin a mile from designated camps and a half mile from trails—out of site as well. When traveling cross-country, camping is allowed only on durable surfaces such as snow, rock, or bare ground. Camping in meadows or within 100 feet of water sources is not allowed. Fires are not allowed. Human waste must be buried in a cathole or (when above treeline in snow or on glaciers) carried out in a blue bag.

[Dmanmastertracker]

 I've said it many times before, a Chinook is a Chinook, Rainbow a Rainbow, Cutthroat a Cutthroat, etc.. If you put them in their natural environment and they survive, then there is no cause for concern. A lot of these wack jobs ran with the mis-management of some of the hatcheries issue, from the 1980's and '90's and have never stopped, trying to push their agenda. The NPS, or any other agency has a responsibility to base their decision's on the best science available, when it comes to these issues. This is not a science -based decision. If it is truly budget related, then they also have a responsibility to disclose that to the public and not publish this blather about the evils of planting fish in the mountain lakes, any fish I've ever caught in a planted mountain lake was indescernable from any native trout I've caught. If it is truly a budget issue, then it makes no sense to allocate funds to poison the lakes, that type of treatment is very costly, much more costly then the small -scale stocking of the lakes is by backpack.

[Happy Gilmore]

One of my best friends works for F&W at the Chelan Hatchery as a fish hatchery tech and is responsible for planting many of the high lakes. The fish are usually backpacked or dropped from small planes. He said the mortality of the fingerling plants is high when dropped or backpacked.

It is probably partially a cost issue. Without planting, the fish probably wouldn't maintain on their own. This probably isn't true with all mountain lakes but, he said many of the lakes he plants don't have very many carryover fish because of the low food content in the lakes.

Mortality of those planted fish is dependent on how they are handled in transit.  Airborne plants have shown a very high success rate.  I would be curious to know what your friend considers high mortality.

The WDFW high lake stocking program is the most cost effective of any around.  Raised in the hatchery only to fry stage and planted by volunteers, it has the lowest cost per fish of any stocking program in the state.

Also, there are more carryover fish than you may realize.  When you factor in the rather low supply of available food in some alpine lakes and the short summer season, a carryover fish several years old may have reached only 5 or 6 inches in length.  If you compare that to the carryover trout you are used to catching in the lowland lakes, it is apples and oranges.

If it was up to me, I would continue stocking inside the park boundary.  Keep in mind that when the NCNP was formed in 1968, one of the provisions in the legislation was that the park service was to allow continued stocking of specific lakes.  Lakes that had been stocked for generations.  If you are to consider these fish "unnatural" then you must consider boot tracks and tire tread unnatural just the same.  Since human presence is not a part of the natural ecology up there, does that mean that some day we may find the whole of the Cascades fenced off to keep society out?  How far do these people want to go in the name of preservation?

First drives a truck to the location nearest possible to the lake with a tank truck. Tank truck sits while guy hikes to dump backpack of a hundred fish.

Guy #2 guy drives tens of thousands of fish to a lake, dumps it. Drives back to hatchery picks up another 10K fish and drives to another lake and dumps the whole load.

There are not many guys responsible for planting every lake within a reasonable distance to the hatcheries. I think the Chelan hatchery only has about 5 employees' right now. They do it all. Hatching, raising, sorting and planting. When you drive by the hatchery, you'll see one, sometimes two green trucks parked at the end of the main building. They pretty much plant all the fish in the entire region. That isn't alot of man power to be sending a guy and a truck off into the woods for an all day backbacking event to plant 100 fish. When there could be a few hundred thousand which need to be planted at the right time.

As far as the air drop mortality rates, he is just going by what the state F&W biologists tell him. Apparently, many lakes can't be air dropped because it is far too risky to fly. The lakes must be long enough for the plane to fly low to the water and slow as possible for the drop while still maintaining enough room to regain airspeed and fly out safely. These are state pilots, not bush planes. Ryan is a technician who raises the fish from eggs. He's been on a few drops. Usually only lakes which are too far to back pack in fish. They have a limited life span due to the lack of O2 in the packs and temperature.

I wish they could stock more fish in more lakes but, we all know there are budget cuts being made which will prioritize programs.....

[WAcoyotehunter]

 Today's invasive species is tomorrow's cornerstone of the local system.

Yikes- like knapweed up here...  Hopefully they don't kill the fish, but I can see the point in wanting a more native environment.  Maybe limit the # of lakes stocked?

We have lots of brook trout up in Pend Oreille County, there are lots of folks that want them gone because they likely compete with the native trout (of which we have very few) for resources- the same thing happens all the time with bass and perch- they get wiped out to restore trout to a lake.   

[Skyvalhunter]

We Hi-lakers are working on getting a bill that would allow stocking to continue as long as the fish are sterile. It made it thru the House last time but died before it made it into the Senate due to the incomming congress. So there is hope

[Dmanmastertracker]

We Hi-lakers are working on getting a bill that would allow stocking to continue as long as the fish are sterile. It made it thru the House last time but died before it made it into the Senate due to the incomming congress. So there is hope

 Please send me the info on that if you don't mind, thanks.

[Smokepole]

I interviewed a WDFW biologist about brook trout a few years ago.  He told me the problem with brookies is they can reproduce with native bull trout, but the offspring are sterile.  So it makes sense that they would not stock them.  I don't see where native cutts or rainbows or triploids would hurt anything.

[TONTO]

Brook trout can reproduce in still water,where a rainbow or cutthroat need a running inlet to spawn.So in most hi lakes rainbow and cutts can't/don't reproduce.

[Dmanmastertracker]

 I did some more research on this, Westslope, Coastal Cutts and Redband Rainbow are all native to the ENTIRE NC Park, only physical barriers kept them out of certain lakes. This is much to do about nothing, the inference as to "non-native" species is fiction, made-up by folks that have too much time on their hands and don't get it. I don't feel they should stock sterile fish, continue to stock native species that can reproduce and save the taxpayer's money -though I realize some of this is volunteer work also. Some of the lakes do have inlets, but no outlets and could support naturally reproducing fish as well. Alchase is right, this would be a tragic and uneducated first step to dismantling any kind of "non-natural" support to keep natural fisheries going. Here's a good hypothetical. Suppose a mountain lake had an outlet connecting it at one point to a trout stream 200 years ago and a slide isolated it, would it then be against this moronic code to never stock the lake again if it required stocking to keep it's population at a fishable level, or at a level it benefits local wildlife? I just have not seen one ounce of scientific data on the part of the Park Service supporting the negative impact of these fish .

[Dmanmastertracker]

 One interesting side note, the organization pressuring the Park Service to conduct this action thinks a lot of themselves. On their web site, they take credit for establishing the NC Park, when in reality it was Henry Jackson and some key Congressional members who got it done, their group is not even mentioned in the Park History, anywhere.

[deaddog]

Funny thing is we employ these people.

Yea, the same folks that spent our money to stock the lakes in the first place, now will spend more to take them out, Can you guess what they will want to do in a few years, put the fish back in the lakes. Sounds like quite the racket to me. wdfg sucks

[Dmanmastertracker]

 Got to ask a few questions one on one with the Park Service, you can read more here http://www.thepnw-outdoors.com/. I also have a 2nd Q&A lined up next week.