NW Sportsman: Washington 2020 Buck Prospects

[bearpaw]

Here’s a look at how Washington blacktail, mule deer and whitetail hunters may fare during this fall’s general seasons.
By Andy Walgamott

https://nwsportsmanmag.com/washington-2020-buck-prospects/

[Forrestrover]

Thanks for the link! 

[NOCK NOCK]

After spending the last 24 days in the field, I can tell you he is way off base in central WA.   

I have never hunted so hard.....to see so few deer. 

[buckfvr]

So what I took from it is you need about 15 days or more to make a kill in a season only lasting 11 days.......

[Bango skank]

So what I took from it is you need about 15 days or more to make a kill in a season only lasting 11 days.......

What i took from it was the whitetail harvest here was one for the books in 2015.  Wonder why that is?  Could there have possibly been something going on the previous, oh, maybe 4 years, in the 2 most hunted units that made for such excellent hunter success? 

[OutHouse]

Thank you for posting. I think they are right about western Okanogan whitetail being steady since 2016. 2013 was a huge year in that region for whitetail (at least in my haunts) then it was mediocre until 2016 and has been about the same ever since.

[NOCK NOCK]

After spending the last 24 days in the field, I can tell you he is way off base in central WA.   

I have never hunted so hard.....to see so few deer.

 ..Chelan and Okanogan Co. I think they need money, got to get folks to buy tags.

Some have suggested every other year Mule deer hunting. I was against it.   After my experiences this year........ I'm all on board, something needs to change.

[Bango skank]

After spending the last 24 days in the field, I can tell you he is way off base in central WA.   

I have never hunted so hard.....to see so few deer.

 ..Chelan and Okanogan Co. I think they need money, got to get folks to buy tags.

Some have suggested every other year Mule deer hunting. I was against it.   After my experiences this year........ I'm all on board, something needs to change.

Yeah something needs to change.  But taking away otc hunting wont change it.  Thatll just make fatter wolves and cats that have bigger litters.  I believe its to the point that taking away all hunting wont help, it will just slightly delay the collapse while temporarily benefitting predators.  We need more predator control period.  Advocating for taking away your own hunting rights wont solve a damn thing.

[Seabass]

So what I took from it is you need about 15 days or more to make a kill in a season only lasting 11 days.......

What i took from it was the whitetail harvest here was one for the books in 2015.  Wonder why that is?  Could there have possibly been something going on the previous, oh, maybe 4 years, in the 2 most hunted units that made for such excellent hunter success? 

EXACTLY!

[sagerat]

After spending the last 24 days in the field, I can tell you he is way off base in central WA.   

I have never hunted so hard.....to see so few deer.

 ..Chelan and Okanogan Co. I think they need money, got to get folks to buy tags.

Some have suggested every other year Mule deer hunting. I was against it.   After my experiences this year........ I'm all on board, something needs to change.

Yeah something needs to change.  But taking away otc hunting wont change it.  Thatll just make fatter wolves and cats that have bigger litters.  I believe its to the point that taking away all hunting wont help, it will just slightly delay the collapse while temporarily benefitting predators.  We need more predator control period.  Advocating for taking away your own hunting rights wont solve a damn thing.

Well said Bango

[archerykraze]

I'm 100% in agreement with Bango, these predators need to be controlled period. Bring back the hound hunting/baiting, incentives for black bear/cougar/coyote as well as a general Spring Bear Season. As far as I'm concerned there is no room for gray wolves in WA and heck no to more Grizzlies in the North Cascades. Culp 2020.

[NOCK NOCK]

The thought that baiting/hounds will come back is a huge pipe dream IMHO. 

[bearpaw]

The thought that baiting/hounds will come back is a huge pipe dream IMHO.

   Unfortunately I agree, too many liberal voters and too many liberal WDFW employees in WA for any meaningful management to ever happen.

[Onewhohikes]

Anytime an article has Scott Fitkin's name in it and him spouting his yearly buck to doe ratio in it I know that section is worthless!!

[Caz]

After spending the last 24 days in the field, I can tell you he is way off base in central WA.   

I have never hunted so hard.....to see so few deer.

 ..Chelan and Okanogan Co. I think they need money, got to get folks to buy tags.

Some have suggested every other year Mule deer hunting. I was against it.   After my experiences this year........ I'm all on board, something needs to change.

Yeah something needs to change.  But taking away otc hunting wont change it.  Thatll just make fatter wolves and cats that have bigger litters.  I believe its to the point that taking away all hunting wont help, it will just slightly delay the collapse while temporarily benefitting predators.  We need more predator control period.  Advocating for taking away your own hunting rights wont solve a damn thing.

Got data to support the whinging about predators?

The problem in this state is too much private, unhuntable land. You want harvest numbers up? Increase taxes on private lands, with a method to adjust them down if they enter the PLHO program.


You want more yotes? Kill off wolves, cats, and bears. The coyote, country wide is a major problem and "sportsmen" whine about them, but oppose effective methods of bringing their numbers down. Because of baseless fears about other predator species. Wolves, bears, cats, not the problem here.

[Bango skank]

After spending the last 24 days in the field, I can tell you he is way off base in central WA.   

I have never hunted so hard.....to see so few deer.

 ..Chelan and Okanogan Co. I think they need money, got to get folks to buy tags.

Some have suggested every other year Mule deer hunting. I was against it.   After my experiences this year........ I'm all on board, something needs to change.

Yeah something needs to change.  But taking away otc hunting wont change it.  Thatll just make fatter wolves and cats that have bigger litters.  I believe its to the point that taking away all hunting wont help, it will just slightly delay the collapse while temporarily benefitting predators.  We need more predator control period.  Advocating for taking away your own hunting rights wont solve a damn thing.

Got data to support the whinging about predators?

The problem in this state is too much private, unhuntable land. You want harvest numbers up? Increase taxes on private lands, with a method to adjust them down if they enter the PLHO program.


You want more yotes? Kill off wolves, cats, and bears. The coyote, country wide is a major problem and "sportsmen" whine about them, but oppose effective methods of bringing their numbers down. Because of baseless fears about other predator species. Wolves, bears, cats, not the problem here.

When do sportsmen oppose coyote management?  And if you dont think wolves cats and bears are a problem with our herd numbers i dont know what to say.  Maybe get out in the woods more.  Idaho has done multiple studies where they purposefully reduced bear and lion populations in areas with shrinking deer and elk herds and terrible fawn / calf recruitment and low snd behold, herds began to recover.  When they stopped culling cats snd bears, herds went to *censored* sgain.  You dont know what youre taking about.

[JimmyHoffa]

After spending the last 24 days in the field, I can tell you he is way off base in central WA.   

I have never hunted so hard.....to see so few deer.

 ..Chelan and Okanogan Co. I think they need money, got to get folks to buy tags.

Some have suggested every other year Mule deer hunting. I was against it.   After my experiences this year........ I'm all on board, something needs to change.

Yeah something needs to change.  But taking away otc hunting wont change it.  Thatll just make fatter wolves and cats that have bigger litters.  I believe its to the point that taking away all hunting wont help, it will just slightly delay the collapse while temporarily benefitting predators.  We need more predator control period.  Advocating for taking away your own hunting rights wont solve a damn thing.

Got data to support the whinging about predators?

The problem in this state is too much private, unhuntable land. You want harvest numbers up? Increase taxes on private lands, with a method to adjust them down if they enter the PLHO program.


You want more yotes? Kill off wolves, cats, and bears. The coyote, country wide is a major problem and "sportsmen" whine about them, but oppose effective methods of bringing their numbers down. Because of baseless fears about other predator species. Wolves, bears, cats, not the problem here.

Not 'data' just what I've seen.  I go on a private land tree farm that culls bears with hounds to prevent tree damage.  Hardly any bear sign at all, but the numbers of deer just amaze me.  The nearby DNR land is the inverse--bears but few deer.

[huntnphool]

After spending the last 24 days in the field, I can tell you he is way off base in central WA.   

I have never hunted so hard.....to see so few deer.

 ..Chelan and Okanogan Co. I think they need money, got to get folks to buy tags.

Some have suggested every other year Mule deer hunting. I was against it.   After my experiences this year........ I'm all on board, something needs to change.

https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,86231.msg1080089.html#msg1080089

[Caz]

This nesting is getting ridiculous, time to clean it up.

When do sportsmen oppose coyote management? 

When they complain about big predators. The ones that would keep the yotes down without us having to go out and waste some good ammo on clean up that should be going to trophy species. I'm out in the woods plenty, here, CA, MA, MT, NV, AZ over the last 30 years. Thanks for the "suggestion." Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. You take an environment, upend and unbalance it due to fearful warbling from various economic groups (ranchers and farmers) which lets second tier predator populations to explode, which causes people to whine about them and what they do to the populations we want to stay strong. Fix the imbalance, and herds will strengthen and reach their appropriate carrying capacity in a region.

If that carrying capacity is not to your liking, improve the lands available to the herd(s) or expand them. A handful of wolves and a couple of meow meows aren't going to do anything impressive, but they do get people fearful and churlish pretty quickly, because mythology is strong.

Not 'data' just what I've seen.  I go on a private land tree farm that culls bears with hounds to prevent tree damage.  Hardly any bear sign at all, but the numbers of deer just amaze me.  The nearby DNR land is the inverse--bears but few deer.

Anecdotally, I can tell you that black bears cause massive population problems in MA for a similar reason, but that's because I'm just one set of experiences. I have a private land I hunt yotes on as a favor to the farmer, because his land abuts some land I lease, and the yotes are screwing up my duck ponds. As I kill the coyotes, the bear sign on my property goes down, and the deer sign increases.

It's a problem I've seen in every state I've been in, coyote populations are too large, and too little is being done about it.

[Caz]

I love that idea phool and heres an ad on....If WDFW was concerned with decreased revenue because they would be loosing half their tag sales, I for one would be interested in a compromise, I would be willing to pay twice the amount every other year for my mule deer tag IF, IF they would aggressively tackle the predator issue and reduce wolf, bear and cat numbers by half. Its a win for everybody, game herds increase, better quantity and quality for hunters, WDFW probably bring in even more money in the long run, give a little, take a little. It just can't be we as hunters giving everything....my

I've got an idea I'd be curious your opinion on, wrt WDFW revenues.

You, me, the rest of us here buy our hunting and fishing licenses, which goes to take care of the land that we utilize. Yet, the REI and Big 5 crowd does not. So, two thoughts:
1. Require a fishing or hunting license to access state lands for recreation.
2. Expand Pittman-Robertson to include everything at REI.

[Bango skank]

This nesting is getting ridiculous, time to clean it up.

When do sportsmen oppose coyote management? 

When they complain about big predators. The ones that would keep the yotes down without us having to go out and waste some good ammo on clean up that should be going to trophy species. I'm out in the woods plenty, here, CA, MA, MT, NV, AZ over the last 30 years. Thanks for the "suggestion." Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. You take an environment, upend and unbalance it due to fearful warbling from various economic groups (ranchers and farmers) which lets second tier predator populations to explode, which causes people to whine about them and what they do to the populations we want to stay strong. Fix the imbalance, and herds will strengthen and reach their appropriate carrying capacity in a region.

If that carrying capacity is not to your liking, improve the lands available to the herd(s) or expand them. A handful of wolves and a couple of meow meows aren't going to do anything impressive, but they do get people fearful and churlish pretty quickly, because mythology is strong.

Not 'data' just what I've seen.  I go on a private land tree farm that culls bears with hounds to prevent tree damage.  Hardly any bear sign at all, but the numbers of deer just amaze me.  The nearby DNR land is the inverse--bears but few deer.

Anecdotally, I can tell you that black bears cause massive population problems in MA for a similar reason, but that's because I'm just one set of experiences. I have a private land I hunt yotes on as a favor to the farmer, because his land abuts some land I lease, and the yotes are screwing up my duck ponds. As I kill the coyotes, the bear sign on my property goes down, and the deer sign increases.

It's a problem I've seen in every state I've been in, coyote populations are too large, and too little is being done about it.

So let me get this straight.  Large predators keep coyote populations down, but not deer populations?  Funny, everywhere i go with high lion bear and wolf numbers is still crawling with coyotes.

Improve the lands available to the herds?  We have tons of excellent habitat with very low herd numbers.

A handful of meow meows?  There are thousands of lions in this state.  They need to eat about a deer a week.

The only way to even begin controlling coyotes is with leg hold trapping.  Its not sportsmen opposing that.

[NOCK NOCK]

@Caz

Here's what your "Meow Meows" do in WA St.

Kill 2 pregnant does on the same night, bury them, then come back the next night to eat the unborn fawns, while leaving the does pretty much un-eaten.
I found these kills the very next morning and put cams on them. After the next 2 consecutive nights, the Cat never came back. Total kill was 2 does & 3 fawns.

[buckfvr]

Spokane via where ?

[Bango skank]

Spokane via where ?

Huh?

Hes asking where dingus moved to spokane from

[NOCK NOCK]

IMHO, cougars are at the top of the list when it comes to the cause of the demise of our mule deer herds, I have been singing that song for years now, yes, bears and wolves are an issue also and even coyotes but cats are out of control, can't count how many cached kills I have found in the Methow in the last 11 months, dozens and dozens. One cougar=50 to 60 dead deer per year. The Methow is overrun with cats, we all have cougar tags this year.

I mostly agree with this, but IMHO people are at the top of this list. 

#1 we need to slow down human predators. No more multi seasons/weapons (way to much pressure on critters), Reduced archery doe killing, not so late of modern deer seasons for muleys, poaching, native overharvest, etc etc.

[Bango skank]

IMHO, cougars are at the top of the list when it comes to the cause of the demise of our mule deer herds, I have been singing that song for years now, yes, bears and wolves are an issue also and even coyotes but cats are out of control, can't count how many cached kills I have found in the Methow in the last 11 months, dozens and dozens. One cougar=50 to 60 dead deer per year. The Methow is overrun with cats, we all have cougar tags this year.

I mostly agree with this, but IMHO people are at the top of this list. 

#1 we need to slow down human predators. No more multi seasons/weapons (way to much pressure on critters), Reduced archery doe killing, not so late of modern deer seasons for muleys, poaching, native overharvest, etc etc.

About 28k deer taken by licensed hunters last year.  3000 (minimum) adult lions in the state taking 60 (conservatively) deer per year each is 180k deer killed by lions.  So how are hunters at the top of the list?  Our lion situation is not sustainable.

Estimated 30k bears in wa is what ive read.  If each killed only one fawn per year, then bear depredation is equivalent to licensed hunters.

Now add in wolves and coyotes.  We have a problem.

[10thmountainarcher]

IMHO, cougars are at the top of the list when it comes to the cause of the demise of our mule deer herds, I have been singing that song for years now, yes, bears and wolves are an issue also and even coyotes but cats are out of control, can't count how many cached kills I have found in the Methow in the last 11 months, dozens and dozens. One cougar=50 to 60 dead deer per year. The Methow is overrun with cats, we all have cougar tags this year.

I mostly agree with this, but IMHO people are at the top of this list. 

#1 we need to slow down human predators. No more multi seasons/weapons (way to much pressure on critters), Reduced archery doe killing, not so late of modern deer seasons for muleys, poaching, native overharvest, etc etc.

About 28k deer taken by licensed hunters last year.  3000 (minimum) adult lions in the state taking 60 (conservatively) deer per year each is 180k deer killed by lions.  So how are hunters at the top of the list?  Our lion situation is not sustainable.

Estimated 30k bears in wa is what ive read.  If each killed only one fawn per year, then bear depredation is equivalent to licensed hunters.

Now add in wolves and coyotes.  We have a problem.

  Bango is spot on, the predator issue in this state is the number one reason our herds are the way they are.

[buckfvr]

IMHO, cougars are at the top of the list when it comes to the cause of the demise of our mule deer herds, I have been singing that song for years now, yes, bears and wolves are an issue also and even coyotes but cats are out of control, can't count how many cached kills I have found in the Methow in the last 11 months, dozens and dozens. One cougar=50 to 60 dead deer per year. The Methow is overrun with cats, we all have cougar tags this year.

I mostly agree with this, but IMHO people are at the top of this list. 

#1 we need to slow down human predators. No more multi seasons/weapons (way to much pressure on critters), Reduced archery doe killing, not so late of modern deer seasons for muleys, poaching, native overharvest, etc etc.

For all of you guys who feel you are the problem, go ahead and voluntarily cut back your participation and allow that to be an individual decision.  Dont give stuff away for others that you know not what their impact is or isnt.  I know many guys who get multi-season and still VOLUNTARILY eat their tag, so do what you think is best for you and leave others alone.

[hunter100]

I'm a long time lurker and I thought I would share my input bow hunting 272 and 136 this year. Mainly west of Ephrata and north of Marlin. I hiked over 18 state land chunks and huge chunks of BLM land. My goal was to explore and cover miles. I have high quality optics and know how to glass. My typical day was a few does and a occasional young or poor genetic buck. I saw a few bucks that were legal but none that were what I would call a true wall hanger. It was so bad that I got to the point I would almost feel bad taking a mature bucks genetics out of the area. I'm sure there is a few on private but areas like the Palisades seem almost devoid of any resident deer. It's sad really. I had a chance at a heavy 3x3 and was within 30 yards but he was bedded weird and busted when I tried to get in a better position. That's it. Again I spent a lot of time and hunted hard. I never slept in and was out often in the dark. This is what I found putting boots on the ground. We need some serious changes.

[Slamadoo]

"For all of you guys who feel you are the problem, go ahead and voluntarily cut back your participation and allow that to be an individual decision.  Don't give stuff away for others that you know not what their impact is or isnt.  I know many guys who get multi-season and still VOLUNTARILY eat their tag, so do what you think is best for you and leave others alone."

 

Couldn't have said it better. I believe any sportsman who is a proponent of permit only Mule Deer hunting, or every other year hunting, or cutting any kind of opportunity for other user groups should think long and hard about what they are supporting. You flat out will not get those opportunities back once they are gone. Nothing stopping anyone from practicing self-restraint where they see fit, but we should not be limiting opportunities for any of us where it is not absolutely necessary.

Anyone arguing that hunters are the problem in this state is 100% wrong. We are the #1 advocate for these deer.

[Bango skank]

Besides, if you go to an every other year only for mule deer, thats just going to add a whole mess of pressure to whitetails, while doing squat to address the mule deer problem.  No thanks.

[Boss .300 winmag]

IMHO, cougars are at the top of the list when it comes to the cause of the demise of our mule deer herds, I have been singing that song for years now, yes, bears and wolves are an issue also and even coyotes but cats are out of control, can't count how many cached kills I have found in the Methow in the last 11 months, dozens and dozens. One cougar=50 to 60 dead deer per year. The Methow is overrun with cats, we all have cougar tags this year.

I mostly agree with this, but IMHO people are at the top of this list. 

#1 we need to slow down human predators. No more multi seasons/weapons (way to much pressure on critters), Reduced archery doe killing, not so late of modern deer seasons for muleys, poaching, native overharvest, etc etc.

About 28k deer taken by licensed hunters last year.  3000 (minimum) adult lions in the state taking 60 (conservatively) deer per year each is 180k deer killed by lions.  So how are hunters at the top of the list?  Our lion situation is not sustainable.

Estimated 30k bears in wa is what ive read.  If each killed only one fawn per year, then bear depredation is equivalent to licensed hunters.

Now add in wolves and coyotes.  We have a problem.

Yep.🤬

[highcountry_hunter]

So what I took from it is you need about 15 days or more to make a kill in a season only lasting 11 days.......

What i took from it was the whitetail harvest here was one for the books in 2015.  Wonder why that is?  Could there have possibly been something going on the previous, oh, maybe 4 years, in the 2 most hunted units that made for such excellent hunter success? 

You couldn’t be talking about the 4pt minimum restrictions that worked wonders but for an unknown reason, with no science behind it, were removed?

[NOCK NOCK]

IMHO, cougars are at the top of the list when it comes to the cause of the demise of our mule deer herds, I have been singing that song for years now, yes, bears and wolves are an issue also and even coyotes but cats are out of control, can't count how many cached kills I have found in the Methow in the last 11 months, dozens and dozens. One cougar=50 to 60 dead deer per year. The Methow is overrun with cats, we all have cougar tags this year.

I mostly agree with this, but IMHO people are at the top of this list. 

#1 we need to slow down human predators. No more multi seasons/weapons (way to much pressure on critters), Reduced archery doe killing, not so late of modern deer seasons for muleys, poaching, native overharvest, etc etc.

For all of you guys who feel you are the problem, go ahead and voluntarily cut back your participation and allow that to be an individual decision.  Dont give stuff away for others that you know not what their impact is or isnt.  I know many guys who get multi-season and still VOLUNTARILY eat their tag, so do what you think is best for you and leave others alone.

Pot meet Kettle.

Many folks also are successful with their multis......I have been one of them several times.   After 40+ years of mule deer hunting under my belt, and the ever quickly decreasing muley population, it is time to do something to help them out before its too late and we DRASTICALLY lose opportunity. Baiting/Hound hunting/Native harvest/Wolves.........Good luck changing any of that, aint gonna happen.

"For all of you guys who feel you are the problem, go ahead and voluntarily cut back your participation and allow that to be an individual decision.  Don't give stuff away for others that you know not what their impact is or isnt.  I know many guys who get multi-season and still VOLUNTARILY eat their tag, so do what you think is best for you and leave others alone."

 

Couldn't have said it better. I believe any sportsman who is a proponent of permit only Mule Deer hunting, or every other year hunting, or cutting any kind of opportunity for other user groups should think long and hard about what they are supporting. You flat out will not get those opportunities back once they are gone. Nothing stopping anyone from practicing self-restraint where they see fit, but we should not be limiting opportunities for any of us where it is not absolutely necessary.

Anyone arguing that hunters are the problem in this state is 100% wrong. We are the #1 advocate for these deer.

Legal harvest, Poaching, Native harvest, doe permits, 2nd deer, Wounded and not counted. Hunters Pressuring deer during breeding and while shed hunting. Multi hunters doing their thing for 3+ months straight........Hunters are involved in a lot of killing of critters.
To think that we as hunters are not associated with deer number issues in this state is extremely naďve.

[NOCK NOCK]

Besides, if you go to an every other year only for mule deer, thats just going to add a whole mess of pressure to whitetails, while doing squat to address the mule deer problem.  No thanks.

I am only for a very sound management plan...that protects all species. If the mules are all killed, whites/blacks will be next. That triangle works in all 3 directions.

How can not killing X amount of deer in one year NOT help the animals?
 
We need to do something, anything before its too late and we all see drastic loss of opportunity across all user groups/species.

PS and yes I agree that predators are a HUGE issue (see my above post/cat kills)

[Bango skank]

Taking away hunting opportunity with an every other year thing or the like will do nothing to address many of the human causes you list like poaching, tribal harvest, shed hunters on winter range etc.  Legal hunting is a drop in the bucket of the total mortality.  I dont think taking away half the legal hunting harvest will help enough when the deer have so many bigger problems working against them.  But i do think that 8500 multi season permits is crazy.  Its a money grab, plain and simple.  And antlerless harvest in areas with poor herd numbers is just plain stupid.  Id also be on board with picking a species for your tag.  But saying you could only hunt mule deer every other year, thats not good.  Its setting a precedent.  It would be a foot in the door for losing basically all otc deer and elk hunting.  It wouldnt save the mule deer either, as the long tails dont follow rules.

[bearpaw]

YES, The problem is the cumulative impact of predation from all sources, including humans! 

But here's the bigger problem, predators that are not managed by hunting will multiply to the point that the available prey base will support. Even if humans were to end all hunting seasons predators would likely increase to the point that the prey base will support, when the prey base drops low enough then predator numbers will decline due to a lack of food, starvation of adult predators, and lack of successful recruitment of young predators. But if prey numbers increase then predator numbers are going to increase. So even if all hunting was ended, the unregulated predator numbers will result in the same low numbers of prey that can survive. You can all give up your hunting you want, but the end result will not amount to a great increase in ungulate numbers, its just that simple! 

[BigGoonTuna]

This thread is starting to remind me of what I see a lot in the salmon/steelhead fishing community, a bunch of recreational guys pointing fingers at each other when sport take is a drop in the bucket compared to unchecked predation, habitat degradation and poorly managed commercial (including tribal) take.

Really starting to think this is just a Washington management problem. Every state has their problems, WDFW just seems to amplify everything.

[buckfvr]

The idea is to reduce harvest without reducing opportunity to hunt.....TO HUNT.  No doe harvest and 4pt apr, done.  This worked before in the n.e. but wdfw denies it while keeping a 3pt apr in place in the s.e.  The message is clear, they donnt know what to do except increase fees.

[Buckhunter24]

I think with the mule deer in North central wa habitat loss among other factors plays a big role in weak popukations. In northeast Washington theres so much great habitat and cover, the only real argument is which of the predators is doing the most damage, cougars imo as well. There's not a day I'm in the woods I don't see large amounts of bear sign, or if there's mud or snow the amount of cat and wolf tracks is depressing. Its easy to drive past the  ag fields and think the populations strong but there's lots of deer there because thats the only place to get some safety.

[highcountry_hunter]

YES, The problem is the cumulative impact of predation from all sources, including humans! 

But here's the bigger problem, predators that are not managed by hunting will multiply to the point that the available prey base will support. Even if humans were to end all hunting seasons predators would likely increase to the point that the prey base will support, when the prey base drops low enough then predator numbers will decline due to a lack of food, starvation of adult predators, and lack of successful recruitment of young predators. But if prey numbers increase then predator numbers are going to increase. So even if all hunting was ended, the unregulated predator numbers will result in the same low numbers of prey that can survive. You can all give up your hunting you want, but the end result will not amount to a great increase in ungulate numbers, its just that simple! 

 

This is why I stated a page or so ago the only way I would support any reductions in mule deer seasons(phools every other year idea specifically) or any other hunter take away would need to involve compromises, wdfw would need to come up with some sort of plan to aggressively lower predator numbers, at least by half on bear and cats and aggressively take on the coyote issue by possibly bringing back some sort of bounty or incentive system. If compromises, or a fair give and take concerning the over population of predators are not addressed, then we have a different story.

Agreed. I agree that if hunters give in to one of the above mentioned ideas (every other year, drawings...) full rights will never be restored. WDFW, who only has a job because of sportsmen, would have to be willing to help with the problem opposed to hunters being the only ones making sacrifices.

[RileyH]

After spending the last 24 days in the field, I can tell you he is way off base in central WA.   

I have never hunted so hard.....to see so few deer.

This is interesting to me as I've been over to our "spot" in Okanogan more times this spring/summer than ever before, and I've seen way more doe and fawn than any other time in memory. Even commented to my father that the observable Muley fawn survival rate seems really high this year. However, I also saw A LOT of black bear, coyote, and our neighbors say the wolves have decimated the whitetail down low although I haven not seen one yet.

One of the big problems in Okanogan is the upper-crust of the region (no secret who they are) close off a lot of land access, put in a lot of work to keep the animals on private, and generally seem to be wanton poachers and flaunt the law every season with no reprimand.

[ibuyre]

It's not just a east side problem. It's state wide. So far this season, scouting and multi season elk, ML deer hunting. I have been in the field in 4 west side units for about 20 days total, in the field at sunrise, hiking and glassing all day and looking for sign. Other than getting on elk. I have seen far more bear and cat sign than deer. I have seen (couldn't get a shot) several coyotes and tons of sign. Even had a Game warden I ran into ask me if I had seen anything? I said just some sign. There reply was, this year they are finding more Bear sign than anything else. And same hear. The predators have ran a muck. Last year elk hunting (west side) I found more cougar kills than live elk.

   Deer hunting a area when I was seeing 10-20 deer a day last year. This year, I found sneak trails where people have been driving around the gates to get into the area. In 2 days in there the most I saw was 2 doe's. Saw cat sign, and saw a cats face for just a second, it was looking at me and gone in a flash. This year in the woods is making me a little sick.... so many predators and people breaking the rules (driving in closed areas).  Who knows if they where doing that day or night (I should go back and put up some game cams), I have ran into evidence (and turned it in) of people driving and spotlighting in closed rd areas. Poachers are real.

I think predators are the top of the list, and there's currently no way to control them in this state, because rules.... Feel good rules that cause animals to get eaten alive, and some to go extinct Forest Caribou. We need to try and educate people, talk to people, and get some laws changed. Or watch our animals mostly die off.