Study on Coho mortality

[2MANY]

Poor conditions in the salt are one of the many problems.
Man this corner of the US was once epic.
Now it's just plain gay.

[Stein]

It's in the article and the studies linked in the articles.  The deaths are occurring in small, urban streams and were found to kill both wild and hatchery fish.  The deaths only appear to occur in well developed areas and did not appear in areas with less than 10% developed land cover. 

This really does seem to make sense.  Runs are continually getting worse and worse despite less fishing.  As development grows, more of these environmental factors come into play. 

Folks ought to read the studies before disputing them.

Yeah, but the runs in most trouble don't go anywhere near Seattle - Hood Canal Chum, Stilly Chinook, at most, it explains why fish die in creeks where they spawn in town.  It also doesn't explain how a run can have a 90% die off of returning adults and not be completely wiped out within a couple generations. 

Finally, it assumes it's coming from tires and not other 6PPD sources like the crumb rubber in playgrounds or sporting fields.

It seems to be a trend in some studies, they get some data, prove some things and then make several unproven claims.  From there, the media takes hold.

If it is a problem, I hope we address it.  I am simply wonder if we magically took 6PPD out of the environment, what change in salmon return we would see?  If it's only really impacting downtown fish, it won't make a dent in the problem.

[WSU]

its not correct to say that the "runs most in trouble" don't go anywhere near Seattle.  Many of those runs referenced in the study are all but gone. 

Hood Canal and the Stilly have their own problems, as do many other runs.  I'm not under some delusion that fixing the tire run off in urban Seattle would repair the degraded habitat in the Stilly from decades of poor logging practices.  There are a lot of reasons our fish runs are tanking.  This study just points to why the fish in these urban streams don't survive.  It doesn't attempt to apply the analysis to other places.

Also, I don't think it is inaccurate to say that runs have been wiped out in a few generations.  The Sammamish Slough streams I referenced earlier went from having fish every year that I could go watch to having no fish in a relatively short period of time.

Again, read the studies.  It's isn't the media boogeyman spinning this.

[Stein]

Come on folks, you've got to read just a bit more closely..."takes out 40 to 90% of returning coho to some urban streams before they spawn."  That's not the entire PS coho return, not the hatcheries, not the Green or Puyallup or Sky or Snoq...none of which have urban spawning areas.  This is talking about Thornton Creek, Pipers Creek, and some of the other tiny little creeks that flow into Lake Washington or the Sound with spawning gravel that runs through truly urban areas.  You'd never see the floaters because you (and I) aren't trying to fish tiny little creeks alongside the road in Ballard.

I did read the study and here is what it says:

This mortality threatens salmonid species conservation across ~40% of Puget Sound land area despite costly societal investments in physical habitat restoration that may have inadvertently created ecological traps due to episodic toxic water pollution

It isn't talking about two creeks in Seattle, they are saying that up to 90% of the salmon are killed in 40% of Puget Sound from tire dust.

[Rainier10]

90% of the salmon in that 40% of area.  I would argue that there isn't a huge amount of Coho returning to Miller and Walker creek but I can assure you that at least 90% of the ones returning to those two creeks are dying before they spawn.  3 years of master hunter hours counting dead fish can confirm that.

[Stein]

40% of Puget Sound is a HUGE area.  Looking at a map, a big chunk of the Sound has light development, so 40% would basically be every metro area in the entire sound.

The report claims up to 90% of returning fish from Olympia up to Bellingham are being killed every year before they spawn.

This isn't one or two creeks.

[Fishmaker57]

And exactly when did they begin putting this chemical in tires? Prior to the Puget Sound runs being listed? Prior to the Bolt decision? I am hoping folks are smart enough to know that diminished salmon runs are due to many issues, and this is just one more. This isn't an "aha!" moment, when miraculously we know how to fix this issue.

[Stein]

And exactly when did they begin putting this chemical in tires? Prior to the Puget Sound runs being listed? Prior to the Bolt decision? I am hoping folks are smart enough to know that diminished salmon runs are due to many issues, and this is just one more. This isn't an "aha!" moment, when miraculously we know how to fix this issue.

Anyone thinking about putting in a paved driveway or another roof on their property anywhere near Puget Sound probably should think about doing that sooner rather than later.  You don't need a magic 8 ball to see where this is going to lead.

[Rainier10]

40% of Puget Sound is a HUGE area.  Looking at a map, a big chunk of the Sound has light development, so 40% would basically be every metro area in the entire sound.

The report claims up to 90% of returning fish from Olympia up to Bellingham are being killed every year before they spawn.

This isn't one or two creeks.

Exactly how familiar are you with this study that you are shooting holes in and claiming to understand what the numbers mean and relate to?  How many hours have you spent counting salmon, working with the biologists?

I am trying to explain what those numbers mean and if you just want to argue to argue and don't really care about understanding the study I can move on.

[Rainier10]

Quote directly from the Seattle Times article.

"In a breakthrough paper published in the Dec. 3 issue of Science, a team of researchers revealed the culprit behind the deaths of coho in an estimated 40% of the Puget Sound area — a killer so lethal it takes out 40 to 90% of returning coho to some urban streams before they spawn. It is a killer hidden in plain sight."

What that means is that in the estimated 40% of the water that dumps into Puget Sound they did a study and in SOME URBAN streams 40-90% of the coho die before spawning.

[Hilltop123]

Quote directly from the Seattle Times article.

"a killer so lethal it takes out 40 to 90% of returning coho to some urban streams before they spawn."

You made mention I believe, about doing counts on these creeks and seeing first hand the pre spawn dead salmon? With a 90% kill rate, that's pretty toxic. What other species did you log in your counts?

[Stein]

I'm all ears, here is the exact quote directly from the study.

This mortality threatens salmonid species conservation across ~40% of Puget Sound land area

I read it as this problem threatens salmon across roughly 40% of Puget Sound land area.  Do you read it differently?  I don't see how this is at all limited to a few small creeks in Seattle.  Correct me if I am wrong.

[Rainier10]

Quote directly from the Seattle Times article.

"a killer so lethal it takes out 40 to 90% of returning coho to some urban streams before they spawn."

You made mention I believe, about doing counts on these creeks and seeing first hand the pre spawn dead salmon? With a 90% kill rate, that's pretty toxic. What other species did you log in your counts?

Chum salmon are running up the creek right now and doing just fine.  No kings or humpies return to those two creeks.

[Rainier10]

I'm all ears, here is the exact quote directly from the study.

This mortality threatens salmonid species conservation across ~40% of Puget Sound land area

I read it as this problem threatens salmon across roughly 40% of Puget Sound land area.  Do you read it differently?  I don't see how this is at all limited to a few small creeks in Seattle.  Correct me if I am wrong.

Oh it threatens them for sure but it is not killing 90% of the salmon in 40% of the rivers.

[Special T]

its not correct to say that the "runs most in trouble" don't go anywhere near Seattle.  Many of those runs referenced in the study are all but gone. 

Hood Canal and the Stilly have their own problems, as do many other runs.  I'm not under some delusion that fixing the tire run off in urban Seattle would repair the degraded habitat in the Stilly from decades of poor logging practices.  There are a lot of reasons our fish runs are tanking.  This study just points to why the fish in these urban streams don't survive.  It doesn't attempt to apply the analysis to other places.

Also, I don't think it is inaccurate to say that runs have been wiped out in a few generations.  The Sammamish Slough streams I referenced earlier went from having fish every year that I could go watch to having no fish in a relatively short period of time.

Again, read the studies.  It's isn't the media boogeyman spinning this.

Like the illegal homeless encampmens in the watersheds... That have illegal scrap melting  shops for meth money?



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