2022 Ford Lightning Discussion

[kselkhunter]

81% of the US population lives in 3% of the US land mass, the cities and towns.  For those people the Lightning has plenty of range for their typical everyday use.  Is the Lightning suitable for towing a 30,000lb trailer 2000 miles across the US?  Nope (if it were a Tesla, then "yes" because the Superchargers eliminate range issues).   Is the Lightning suitable for typical usage of 80% of the US population?  Yep.


A 120v Level 1 wall charger can only charge 8-10 miles per hour....nobody is seriously going to try to charge a 300 mile range EV with one of those as their permanent home charging solution.....


The "Pro" edition of the Lightning for contractors looks interesting, as you no longer have to lug a generator along to job sites.     


I live on the east side of the cascades in Oregon.  My favorite local hunting and fishing spots are <30 miles away from my house, so no range anxiety in towing my boat with a Lightning or hunting....I'm not a road hunter so 250-300 miles range is more than enough....and I've had an EV before so am familiar with how running the heater/etc affect range.    My favorite spots to the north and west are within range of a Lightning, and there are many many charging stations between me and them.  The only time I'd get range anxiety is if I draw one of the coveted eastern tags where I'm driving to the remote southeastern corner....then again those places are 100 miles from a gas station too....so that stuff is really remote.   And those tags take decades to draw, so no risk of range issues anytime soon.  :-)   But for those hunts I'd take the Tundra and my 20gallons of jerry cans on the truck canopy.


If somebody is towing a 30,000lb trailer uphill both ways in 20ft of snow for 2000 miles each way, then sure an EV truck will never be acceptable.  :-)   In all seriousness, EV trucks won't be for everybody.  But we're kidding ourselves if we try to deny the fact that EV SUV and Trucks are going to sell millions of vehicles in the coming decades.   

[Stein]

There are a bunch of people that could and do use the 120V, 15 A cord to charge almost exclusively.  Even at 8-10 miles per hour of charge, if you use it to commute, get home at 6 pm and leave the next day at 7 am you get 100-130 miles of charge overnight which is more than enough for the vast majority of commutes even if you throw in a few trips to the grocery store during the week.

EVs sit in the garage for a long time, they can pencil out for commuting even if you don't install a charger at home and don't have one at work.  I would be interested to know what percent of Tesla owners don't buy a charger.

I know a guy working on a project for a Fortune 500 company that is buying commercial EV trucks.  Big chargers, big trucks, big loads, big mileage capacity.  We'll see how well they work but it's happening faster than most realize.  Gas cost going up, electricity cost going down before you even talk about maintenance.

[kselkhunter]

There are a bunch of people that could and do use the 120V, 15 A cord to charge almost exclusively.  Even at 8-10 miles per hour of charge, if you use it to commute, get home at 6 pm and leave the next day at 7 am you get 100-130 miles of charge overnight which is more than enough for the vast majority of commutes even if you throw in a few trips to the grocery store during the week.

EVs sit in the garage for a long time, they can pencil out for commuting even if you don't install a charger at home and don't have one at work.  I would be interested to know what percent of Tesla owners don't buy a charger.

I know a guy working on a project for a Fortune 500 company that is buying commercial EV trucks.  Big chargers, big trucks, big loads, big mileage capacity.  We'll see how well they work but it's happening faster than most realize.  Gas cost going up, electricity cost going down before you even talk about maintenance.

Yep, when I had the Ford Focus Electric I used the 120V Level 1 charger too.   The problem is if you come back home late at night, you won't be topped up in time for your morning commute.  Which was a problem with a 84 mile range (65 in winter) EV....not as much with a 300 mile range EV.  But I had a few mornings when couldn't take the Focus to work because it wouldn't make it there and back on a charge, and I didn't have time to stop at a charging station that day.   


The challenge when using a 120v charger with a 300 mile range vehicle is if you go on a trip and come back with only 50 miles range left on that Tesla or Lightning....it's going to take 3 days to recharge that thing.....

The wife will be upgrading her Volvo to an EV SUV in the near future, and will definitely be installing a Level 2 charger at home for that.

[KFhunter]

One of the first EV's, and its super charger.

[JBG]

Also think of how many F150's are fleet trucks used to haul light loads of gear from spot to spot around town or are city municipal trucks for hauling grass clippings etc.  Tesla's were a clean sheet design from a brand new company. The F150 out sells every other vehicle.  I am unaware of specifics of the remote charging game but I imagine the open market will meet the demand for efficient charging stations when millions of these vehicles are bought by government agencies not to mention the millions of grocery getters. 

[lamrith]

This post got quiet.  Seems reservations topped 100K shortly after the last post in this thread, and then last month topped 120K.  Has anyone else put a reservation on for one?

EV in general has really skyrocketed in availability, affordability and range the last year or two.  Electrify America is opening more and more stations.  Last week Tesla released they will open their network to other EV's this year.  I also heard they are changing their plug setup.

Based on the research I have done about the Mach-E (figure ford will use similar tech/concepts), Ford has really done their research with EV tech and putting together a good package.  Unlike Tesla they are not playing the typical "max possible EPA rating" game.  They are understating EPC mileage estimates and those reporting on range as saying they are getting longer range than EPA estimates. 

Early reviews from people that have been hands on with the lightning it looks like a real winner.  Some nice features for camping or being away from where there are powerlines, good range (with some posters showing LCD's showing what could possibly be much higher actual range).

[lamrith]

400W solar panels are down to <$300 now.   Charging an EV at home without use of the energy grid is getting more economical every year that technology advances.   A 5kW system is large enough to charge the Lightning based on typical daily usage and sun availability in the PNW, and a 5kW complete solar power kit costs between $5k-$7K now.  Installation will vary based on location, and how much of the install you can do yourself.  But with a 20 year warranty, we're talking $300-$500/yr total ammortized....which is less expensive than my annual gasoline costs.....


There are charging stations all over the place, including rural areas that many people have no clue even exist.  Parking lot of a remote mountain pass.  Tucked into the corner of a Dairy Queen parking lot in a rural eastern town, etc.  And more pop up every month.   So range to the east side rural areas may be farther than some realize.....


The real question will be Ford's strategy on fast charging network.  Tesla spent the time and money to put Supercharger stations everywhere such that you can now drive all over the country with a Model S.   Would have been cool to see Ford license the Tesla charging technology and cut a deal to let a Lightning top up at a Supercharger station.   Otherwise you're stuck with regular Chargepoint chargers and fast DC chargers....which isn't going to cut it for long distance trips as those are multi-hour recharges compared to a 30 minute charge in a Tesla at a SuperCharger station....I haven't looked closely enough at the Lightning to get a good gauge on the charging strategy.  But it'll be awhile before a network of faster charging stations is built out.  I'm friends with the VP of Engineering at Chargepoint, and they're moving quickly to install the next gen fast chargers....but it's going to take time to get them all out.


I leased a Ford Focus electric from 2014 to 2016 as my commuter vehicle.  That was a fun little car, and the lease deals they were running back then made it a no-brainer....I put the miles on the Focus electric instead of my Tundra.   Ford did a really good job with the development on that EV in terms of user interface, etc.   I really liked it.  You learn where all the charging stations are, and eventually get over the range anxiety.   Having a 300 mile range of a Tesla or a Ford Lightning (the upgraded model) is a game changer from the 7 year older technology I was driving.

I just did a calculation on my typical daily routine for a year.
My daily driven car gats 17-18mpg.  Using the somewhat accepted EV standard 3.0mi/Kwh and my current elect Co rates I would save $2400 a year on fuel alone, plus maintenance.  That would pay the solar system off right quick!

For charging ford teamed up with Electrify America and maybe others.  When all this started I do not think Tesla was willing to share, but  more on that later.  EA has a really big network already and some stations are faster than tesla, EA has 350Kwh rolling out all over.  But most EV's are not designed to take advantage of those max power stations.  Porsche Taycan being one of the few to run over 150 that I know of?  But the point is that there are thousands of stations to charge at and I think technically more than tesla from a sheer number standpoint, and the speeds are getting much faster every month.  Mach-E is 150Kwh from 20-80%.  One thing I saw on the lightning has said 10-80% charge in under 40min and that max rate was 150Kwh.

Best part though is Tesla has announced they will be opening their network to other EV's this year.  I think the sheer number of offerings for EV's that rival Tesla's range has caused them to re-evaluate their position and realize it is in their best interest to start levering their great network to become a real revenue generating source.

[CP]

I just did a calculation on my typical daily routine for a year.
My daily driven car gats 17-18mpg.  Using the somewhat accepted EV standard 3.0mi/Kwh and my current elect Co rates I would save $2400 a year on fuel alone, plus maintenance.  That would pay the solar system off right quick!

For charging ford teamed up with Electrify America and maybe others.  When all this started I do not think Tesla was willing to share, but  more on that later.  EA has a really big network already and some stations are faster than tesla, EA has 350Kwh rolling out all over.  But most EV's are not designed to take advantage of those max power stations.  Porsche Taycan being one of the few to run over 150 that I know of?  But the point is that there are thousands of stations to charge at and I think technically more than tesla from a sheer number standpoint, and the speeds are getting much faster every month.  Mach-E is 150Kwh from 20-80%.  One thing I saw on the lightning has said 10-80% charge in under 40min and that max rate was 150Kwh.

Best part though is Tesla has announced they will be opening their network to other EV's this year.  I think the sheer number of offerings for EV's that rival Tesla's range has caused them to re-evaluate their position and realize it is in their best interest to start levering their great network to become a real revenue generating source.

The Mach-E battery size is 75.7 kWh and it charges at 150kW?  2C?  What kind of battery life can they get charging at 2C?

[kselkhunter]

Almost done with this ridiculously long garage expansion remodel (signed papers with contractor a year ago next week.....drywall goes in tomorrow....still no clue when we'll finish).  Kicking myself on the electrical decision.  Garage is detached and previous homeowners were notorious code violators so instead of messing with the power line they buried from house to garage our electrician tapped into the spare capacity at the power pole.....as part of the garage expansion re-wire I had him wire in for a 240V NEMA 14-50 outlet so can use an EV charger in one of the new garage bays.....   as most home EV charging stations are 50A and I'm tentatively planning on the ChargePoint Flex charging station.


Just looked at the Ford Wall Charger specs for the Lightning.....Darn it!!!   80A charger.  Don't have enough left in the electrical panel (nor did I pull heavy enough gauge wire for 80A).  Was trying to convince the wife to get the Lightning for her next vehicle (she's replacing her Volvo with an EV SUV in the next few years).....because I'd liked the backup home power option you get with that....and I planned on "borrowing" it most of the time....but no bueno.  That backup power function won't work without Ford's Wall Charger.  Oh well.   But that 80A is also how Ford is able to state the fast charging stats (projection).   


Knowing the wife she'll probably go with the XC90 EV that's coming out in two years to replace her existing XC90 (XC40 EV is out now but she likes the roomier XC90s).  Although a Tesla S is probably also still in play for her decision. 


It's nice Tesla finally played nice with others by opening up the Supercharger network now.  Curious how much they'll charge for it to non-Tesla's.  Of the nationwide charging stations, Tesla has over 50% of them.  The downside is no other car is designed to handle Tesla's Gen3 speeds of charging rates on those things so they'll throttle to normal Level 2 charge rates.   Tesla will still maintain that advantage on charge rate until the new charging standard comes out next year......

[lamrith]

I just did a calculation on my typical daily routine for a year.
My daily driven car gats 17-18mpg.  Using the somewhat accepted EV standard 3.0mi/Kwh and my current elect Co rates I would save $2400 a year on fuel alone, plus maintenance.  That would pay the solar system off right quick!

For charging ford teamed up with Electrify America and maybe others.  When all this started I do not think Tesla was willing to share, but  more on that later.  EA has a really big network already and some stations are faster than tesla, EA has 350Kwh rolling out all over.  But most EV's are not designed to take advantage of those max power stations.  Porsche Taycan being one of the few to run over 150 that I know of?  But the point is that there are thousands of stations to charge at and I think technically more than tesla from a sheer number standpoint, and the speeds are getting much faster every month.  Mach-E is 150Kwh from 20-80%.  One thing I saw on the lightning has said 10-80% charge in under 40min and that max rate was 150Kwh.

Best part though is Tesla has announced they will be opening their network to other EV's this year.  I think the sheer number of offerings for EV's that rival Tesla's range has caused them to re-evaluate their position and realize it is in their best interest to start levering their great network to become a real revenue generating source.

The Mach-E battery size is 75.7 kWh and it charges at 150kW?  2C?  What kind of battery life can they get charging at 2C?

Not sure mach-e batt size, pretty sure one is 90?  I have seen vids of then going 125kw+ while under 70%.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[lamrith]

I have heard a few mention this limitation on house panel and hooking up 80a? 

Not sure I follow, are you folks talking literal spaces in panel to add a circuit or something else?  I have space in both my main house panel (200A service from road) and subpanel in garage (100A feed from house main panel)

[kselkhunter]

I have heard a few mention this limitation on house panel and hooking up 80a? 

Not sure I follow, are you folks talking literal spaces in panel to add a circuit or something else?  I have space in both my main house panel (200A service from road) and subpanel in garage (100A feed from house main panel)

1)  You have to run the proper gauge wire from your electrical panel in order to support an 80A charger.  The gauge of wire that I had pulled to support a 50A charger won't safely support an 80A charger.  Have to pull thicker gauge wire for 80A. 


2)  I can't speak for others regarding physical space for breakers in their electrical panel although I do know that happens and people have to upgrade panels,  but in my case I'm running multiple 240V systems and other higher amperage drawing devices off that garage panel along with other items.   Sure I could look at terminating something to free up the extra amps....but not worth it now.   Electrical part of the project is finished.


Since the wife hasn't decided on an EV yet, I chose to keep my decision as generic as possible with the 50A NEMA 14-50 outlet decision.  That approach let's me use a ChargePoint Flex or other types of Level 2 smart chargers or a mobile charger that plugs into a 240V outlet.   Wasn't planning on a Tesla wall charger (those are 60A for Gen3) as those are specific to Tesla and I don't know which EV wife will choose.  But it was cheaper/easier to run the wiring and plan the panel now while the garage is being built so opted to put the 240V outlet in now.


The other nice thing of sticking with the standard NEMA 14-50 outlet approach is that is the same connector used for RV shore power, some welders, some appliances, etc.  So gives more flexibility than just choosing a hardwired option.


I just wasn't expecting Ford to jump up to an 80A charger.   That's higher than even a Tesla Gen3.   You can still plug a Lightning, or any EV, into a NEMA 14-50 based Level 2 EV charger.   It's just Ford is counting on that 80A circuit for when you're using the "backup home power" mode as power is flowing from the Lightning to power your house in a power outage for up to 3 days.....  cool feature. 

[lamrith]

I have heard a few mention this limitation on house panel and hooking up 80a? 

Not sure I follow, are you folks talking literal spaces in panel to add a circuit or something else?  I have space in both my main house panel (200A service from road) and subpanel in garage (100A feed from house main panel)

1)  You have to run the proper gauge wire from your electrical panel in order to support an 80A charger.  The gauge of wire that I had pulled to support a 50A charger won't safely support an 80A charger.  Have to pull thicker gauge wire for 80A. 


2)  I can't speak for others regarding physical space for breakers in their electrical panel although I do know that happens and people have to upgrade panels,  but in my case I'm running multiple 240V systems and other higher amperage drawing devices off that garage panel along with other items.   Sure I could look at terminating something to free up the extra amps....but not worth it now.   Electrical part of the project is finished.


Since the wife hasn't decided on an EV yet, I chose to keep my decision as generic as possible with the 50A NEMA 14-50 outlet decision.  That approach let's me use a ChargePoint Flex or other types of smart chargers that plug into a 240V outlet.   Wasn't planning on a Tesla wall charger (those are 60A for Gen3) as those are specific to Tesla and I don't know which EV wife will choose.  But it was cheaper/easier to run the wiring and plan the panel now while the garage is being built so opted to put the 240V outlet in now.


The other nice thing of sticking with the standard NEMA 14-50 outlet approach is that is the same connector used for RV shore power, some welders, some appliances, etc.  So gives more flexibility than just choosing a hardwired option.


I just wasn't expecting Ford to jump up to an 80A charger.   That's higher than even a Tesla Gen3.   You can still plug a Lightning, or any EV, into a NEMA 14-50 based EV charger.   It's just Ford is counting on that 80A circuit for when you're using the "backup home power" mode as power is flowing from the Lightning to power your house in a power outage for up to 3 days.....  cool feature.

Thanks for filling in some info.  I was getting concerned after reading a post early in this thread about energy code issues.

Thankfully my home is 200A and the run to garage is 100A so I should be able to put the charger at either location.

Wire is not cheap, but  in the grand scheme of things it is not that expensive either.  Hopefully yours was run in conduit?  If so honestly you should be able to pull a new run with heavier gauge wire?  Now would be the time while it is still fresh construction, walls open and maybe electricians are still around?

[kselkhunter]

Nah, I'm not enamored enough with the Lightning to swap out the garage wires now.....haven't seen the final bill but pretty sure the wire cost more than the new panel did.   I like the Lightning but now that the EV options are about to quadruple in the next 6-12 months and much more so in the next 3 years.....

Dodge and GM both have 400-500 mile range 1500 series trucks in development coming albeit later to market than Ford....I am a Ford guy but man that extra range is appealing enough to wait.   Plus again the wife will probably buy an SUV anyway.  The 400 mile range Rivian R1S is pretty cool, although I get nervous trusting which one of the new US startups (Canoo, Rivian, Bollinger, etc.) will make it long term in the EV market.  That new Hummer EV looks pretty cool with 350 mile range....not sure I can go for that Jeep Wrangler EV (Magneto), not enough range for that type of vehicle.    Audi/Porsche, BMW, Cadillac, and Mercedes already have their EV fleet in the market now going against Tesla.  Volvo EVs hit the US next year.  Ford has multiple models on the road now with the rest of their EV fleet coming soon.   Toyota and Nissan have their SUV EVs here now and next year, and Subaru's is coming next year.   Then the Chinese brands will invade (they outsell Tesla now across the lot of them).  Prices are going to drop with the huge increase in competition over the next 4 years.  The big brands will survive like they always do.   

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g29994375/future-electric-cars-trucks/

A 50 amp circuit is fine for all of those for now, except the Lightning.  Or that unique Tesla wall charger (60A circuit).

So can't really justify that 80 amp change unless the wife really loved the Lightning....but I'm more interested in it than she is.   And she now has lots of alternative options coming soon.

[lamrith]

Nah, I'm not enamored enough with the Lightning to swap out the garage wires now.....haven't seen the final bill but pretty sure the wire cost more than the new panel did.   I like the Lightning but now that the EV options are about to quadruple in the next 6-12 months and much more so in the next 3 years.....

Dodge and GM both have 400-500 mile range 1500 series trucks in development coming albeit later to market than Ford....I am a Ford guy but man that extra range is appealing enough to wait.   Plus again the wife will probably buy an SUV anyway.  The 400 mile range Rivian R1S is pretty cool, although I get nervous trusting which one of the new US startups (Canoo, Rivian, Bollinger, etc.) will make it long term in the EV market.  That new Hummer EV looks pretty cool with 350 mile range....not sure I can go for that Jeep Wrangler EV (Magneto), not enough range for that type of vehicle.    Audi/Porsche, BMW, Cadillac, and Mercedes already have their EV fleet in the market now going against Tesla.  Volvo EVs hit the US next year.  Ford has multiple models on the road now with the rest of their EV fleet coming soon.   Toyota and Nissan have their SUV EVs here now and next year, and Subaru's is coming next year.   Then the Chinese brands will invade (they outsell Tesla now across the lot of them).  Prices are going to drop with the huge increase in competition over the next 4 years.  The big brands will survive like they always do.   

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g29994375/future-electric-cars-trucks/

A 50 amp circuit is fine for all of those for now, except the Lightning.  Or that unique Tesla wall charger (60A circuit).

So can't really justify that 80 amp change unless the wife really loved the Lightning....but I'm more interested in it than she is.   And she now has lots of alternative options coming soon.

Yeah that makes sense and we are sort of off on a tangent, and late in the game for you, but worth mentioning for anyone else considering EV and wiring a garage.  I went 100A, just can't have too much power when projects need done.  And if done initially, the cost difference is not that bad, or at least was not pre Covid when I did mine.  Glad I did to as we later installed a mini split hvac unit so we can use it in dead of winter or heat of summer.  If you have plans to install heat/cooling down the road many of them are in the 60a range, just fyi.  Plus I doubt ford will be the only one over 50A long term.

As for the competition, I am not fully believing many of those super long range claims.  Easy to claim, harder to prove.  I just find it suspect that they all have some magic batteries/tech that is soo much better than ford which is already a jump forward in terms of range for a vehicle this size..?  I bet they are playing the same epa ratings games as they do for the ICE vehicles and Tesla on their cars does which users in real life to not see.  Ford with Mach-e on the other hand always exceeds epa estimates..  They are doing same for lightning, keeping claims ultra conservative from what those into EV are saying based on info ford has released.  Recent images and videos have shown ford lcd showing 479mi range.  I agree with concern on longevity on the new upstarts, not willing to roll the dice personally.  I mean Tesla has (thus far) pulled it off, but I have heard stories over the years that they lost millions, not many companies can survive that sort of thing.  If Money was no object I would jump at a Taycan as primary daily driver, speed and range and well it's a porsche, they have a feel and ride to them that is second to none..