Hunters need to make a Statement

[buckfvr]

this state will drain every last cent out of our wildlife resources to the point of total collapse.  Being closer to 68 then 67, I cant even begin to count how many places I have hunted over the years that are now all houses and private property.  The states population explosion has encroached on winter range in most every area that had any.  I have many fond memories of the past as a hunter and I stand by the good ol days are forever gone.  Its actually sad knowing how bad it is now by comparison to the past.  It is a real head scratcher to listen to guys talk about how good deer or elk in this area or that in Wa. is right now when I know none of it compares now or ever will again with the past.

The voice of the hunters in this state is but a whisper.  The other 97+% dont really give a damn how we feel.   

[pianoman9701]

So what about areas with very little predation or stagnant predator populations John? How do you explain away those deer populations?

Which areas would those be, my friend? Bears and cougars are overpopulated all over the state. Even coyotes are thick in the cities as well as the countryside. Again, I'm not saying there aren't other factors. But I think predators play a major role. Look at the densely populated eastern states that have massive deer populations, for instance. What don't they have? An overabundance of predators. They haven't had near as much sustainable habitat as we have for centuries. Yet their ungulates thrive. Wait until CWD arrives. We won't have any MD left.

[Boss .300 winmag]

this state will drain every last cent out of our wildlife resources to the point of total collapse.  Being closer to 68 then 67, I cant even begin to count how many places I have hunted over the years that are now all houses and private property.  The states population explosion has encroached on winter range in most every area that had any.  I have many fond memories of the past as a hunter and I stand by the good ol days are forever gone.  Its actually sad knowing how bad it is now by comparison to the past.  It is a real head scratcher to listen to guys talk about how good deer or elk in this area or that in Wa. is right now when I know none of it compares now or ever will again with the past.

The voice of the hunters in this state is but a whisper.  The other 97+% dont really give a damn how we feel.   

Yep.🤬

[Karl Blanchard]

So what about areas with very little predation or stagnant predator populations John? How do you explain away those deer populations?

Which areas would those be, my friend? Bears and cougars are overpopulated all over the state. Even coyotes are thick in the cities as well as the countryside. Again, I'm not saying there aren't other factors. But I think predators play a major role. Look at the densely populated eastern states that have massive deer populations, for instance. What don't they have? An overabundance of predators. They haven't had near as much sustainable habitat as we have for centuries. Yet their ungulates thrive. Wait until CWD arrives. We won't have any MD left.

let's unpack this a bit.

Coyotes: As far as I can tell nobody is really counting coyotes. With that said, my own personal experience of 20 years as a hard core coyote hunter and solidly 1k+ dogs under my belt from the crest trail to the idaho boarder I can say with confidence there are no more coyotes than there has ever been in that 20 years. If anything with the boom in popularity of coyote hunting one could argue there's a few less than there used to be.

Bears: every last one of you guys arguing with me have been shouting from the roof tops that wdfw commission needs to follow the science on bears. Well a big factor in how bios measure bear densities is hunter harvest. In general, the more animals the greater the harvest. When we look at bear harvest over the last decade the only measurable increase is starting in 2019. Coincidentally thats the same year we went to 2 bears statewide and an Aug 1 opener. Before that it was 1425-1500 bears statewide like clockwork. So how is it we have to follow the science when it comes to spring bear but we can ignore the science when playing the blame game   there's definitely some problem areas, like the NE corner where there are areas you can see far more bears than deer. Or the blues in the spring where its nothing to see 5-10+ bears in a weekend if the onions are ripe. Though the recent blues study shows bears are less of a burden on calves than originally most of us thought (me included).

Cougars: There are 49 gmu's in WA that annually record 0-1 cat kills over all categories. Statewide harvest fluctuates but for the most part is within 50 cats or so. So how is it that if ungulate populations continue to tank (less food) cat populations continue to explode even though harvest data doesn't support that? How is it that all animals face starvation and population decreases when their food sources deplete but somehow predators go the opposite direction 🤔 if the science is there I'm sure not seeing it.

And once again for those that refuse to read what I keep saying over and over, PREDATORS ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM, but no more a part as human encroachment.

[Karl Blanchard]

I apologize to the OP. We've gotten way out in the weeds from his original discussion point. I'll dip out of this one. Its like trying to argue Chevy vs ford when it comes to predators 

[baldopepper]

So what about areas with very little predation or stagnant predator populations John? How do you explain away those deer populations?

Which areas would those be, my friend? Bears and cougars are overpopulated all over the state. Even coyotes are thick in the cities as well as the countryside. Again, I'm not saying there aren't other factors. But I think predators play a major role. Look at the densely populated eastern states that have massive deer populations, for instance. What don't they have? An overabundance of predators. They haven't had near as much sustainable habitat as we have for centuries. Yet their ungulates thrive. Wait until CWD arrives. We won't have any MD left.

let's unpack this a bit.

Coyotes: As far as I can tell nobody is really counting coyotes. With that said, my own personal experience of 20 years as a hard core coyote hunter and solidly 1k+ dogs under my belt from the crest trail to the idaho boarder I can say with confidence there are no more coyotes than there has ever been in that 20 years. If anything with the boom in popularity of coyote hunting one could argue there's a few less than there used to be.

Bears: every last one of you guys arguing with me have been shouting from the roof tops that wdfw commission needs to follow the science on bears. Well a big factor in how bios measure bear densities is hunter harvest. In general, the more animals the greater the harvest. When we look at bear harvest over the last decade the only measurable increase is starting in 2019. Coincidentally thats the same year we went to 2 bears statewide and an Aug 1 opener. Before that it was 1425-1500 bears statewide like clockwork. So how is it we have to follow the science when it comes to spring bear but we can ignore the science when playing the blame game   there's definitely some problem areas, like the NE corner where there are areas you can see far more bears than deer. Or the blues in the spring where its nothing to see 5-10+ bears in a weekend if the onions are ripe. Though the recent blues study shows bears are less of a burden on calves than originally most of us thought (me included).

Cougars: There are 49 gmu's in WA that annually record 0-1 cat kills over all categories. Statewide harvest fluctuates but for the most part is within 50 cats or so. So how is it that if ungulate populations continue to tank (less food) cat populations continue to explode even though harvest data doesn't support that? How is it that all animals face starvation and population decreases when their food sources deplete but somehow predators go the opposite direction 🤔 if the science is there I'm sure not seeing it.

And once again for those that refuse to read what I keep saying over and over, PREDATORS ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM, but no more a part as human encroachment.
[/quote personally.think you are pretty much right on. Only area I know of that are still holding a fair population of deer are those areas that have a high density of private property. Not necessarily the packed in areas, but like portions of Stevens county where zoning has held back packed in building, but has not stopped owners from posting their 5-20 acre lots. Frankly, the herds in the immediate area around me are doing well..Predators don't read no trespassing signs, so I tend to lean towards limited human intrusion to the health of the herd.I do believe we spend too much time on the wolf issues and not enough on the lion problem. Used to be a big deal to see a lion, now it's almost a daily sighting if you are out and  about much

[hunter399]

I've only have read this page.

Coyote are in higher numbers.
Has anybody ever seen a coyote run a deer into the dirt on a bad drought year.
Or see the tracks in the snow ,and think to yourself this is a pack of yotes .Not a set of tracks.

Anyway this will BLOW your mind.
The whole state needs to go to Permit only for areas or species that have an APR. Antler point restriction.

That would mean all mule deer and true spike elk any other areas like palouse south units that have 3 PT min whitetail.
All those units with a current APR would be pay to play permit draw only.

I know it sounds bad 👎 ..... It's only like half the state would become permit only deer and elk hunting.
According to WDFW antler point restriction don't help population of deer and elk.
Oh and cut all female harvest in any APR area.
That should keep the predators feed for awhile.

[KFhunter]

So what about areas with very little predation or stagnant predator populations John? How do you explain away those deer populations?

Which areas would those be, my friend? Bears and cougars are overpopulated all over the state. Even coyotes are thick in the cities as well as the countryside. Again, I'm not saying there aren't other factors. But I think predators play a major role. Look at the densely populated eastern states that have massive deer populations, for instance. What don't they have? An overabundance of predators. They haven't had near as much sustainable habitat as we have for centuries. Yet their ungulates thrive. Wait until CWD arrives. We won't have any MD left.

let's unpack this a bit.

Coyotes: As far as I can tell nobody is really counting coyotes. With that said, my own personal experience of 20 years as a hard core coyote hunter and solidly 1k+ dogs under my belt from the crest trail to the idaho boarder I can say with confidence there are no more coyotes than there has ever been in that 20 years. If anything with the boom in popularity of coyote hunting one could argue there's a few less than there used to be.

Bears: every last one of you guys arguing with me have been shouting from the roof tops that wdfw commission needs to follow the science on bears. Well a big factor in how bios measure bear densities is hunter harvest. In general, the more animals the greater the harvest. When we look at bear harvest over the last decade the only measurable increase is starting in 2019. Coincidentally thats the same year we went to 2 bears statewide and an Aug 1 opener. Before that it was 1425-1500 bears statewide like clockwork. So how is it we have to follow the science when it comes to spring bear but we can ignore the science when playing the blame game   there's definitely some problem areas, like the NE corner where there are areas you can see far more bears than deer. Or the blues in the spring where its nothing to see 5-10+ bears in a weekend if the onions are ripe. Though the recent blues study shows bears are less of a burden on calves than originally most of us thought (me included).

Cougars: There are 49 gmu's in WA that annually record 0-1 cat kills over all categories. Statewide harvest fluctuates but for the most part is within 50 cats or so. So how is it that if ungulate populations continue to tank (less food) cat populations continue to explode even though harvest data doesn't support that? How is it that all animals face starvation and population decreases when their food sources deplete but somehow predators go the opposite direction 🤔 if the science is there I'm sure not seeing it.

And once again for those that refuse to read what I keep saying over and over, PREDATORS ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM, but no more a part as human encroachment.

I don't know how to stop encroachment, private property once family farms turned subdivision and timber company lands selling off timberless scrub lands and blocking access due to slobs.

We had a scare of fed lands being sold to the state,  but that scare has past, no one wants to sell off federal lands, there's no political path there any longer.

The state is trading lands here and there, but to my knowledge isn't selling it off on a grand scale 

Sooo, what's the solution to homes being built on winter range?   Stop illegal migration is one small factor, those once swank California neighborhoods being turned into homeless street toilets push those city folk into the country (and other cities, states as well if course)

Other than mass deportations, stopping flow of drugs, welfare revamp and cleaning up cities I got no ideas how to stop homes in deer ranges.

So I talk about things that can (in theory) be done, but honestly here Karl...I see no viable path before us that will turn hunting around in this state anytime soon, the wrong leaders are in power and it is opposite of thier agenda to increase hunting opportunities 

I didn't vote for any of them

[Karl Blanchard]

I said I was done here but I wanted to answer KF  I'm right there with man. I didn't vote that side either.

I most definitely don't have all the answers or even a few of the answers but a thing or two I see that can be done on the habitat front is first we need to identify current migration corridors and winter ranges. Not what they were 40 years ago but real time. From there we need to identify what's still in play that can be gobbled up. Im a poor pepsi guy but there is power in numbers. RMEF, MDF, etc do this stuff all the time though I have my skeptical glasses on when it comes to the effectiveness of many of these orgs. @Rainier10 is doing exactly this kind of thing with his land purchases and he has seen the benefits of it in a relatively short time period. It can be done. All the while we can still all get out and shoot some predators. Unlimited coyotes. 2 bears per big game hunter, and toss some snow shoes on, grab the fox pro and go walk down a cat. Thats something every single person can do right now.

Current habitat enhancement. As I stated before, just because its land doesn't make it usable and viable habitat. 1,000 acres of cheat doesn't do deer much good. The high country is the high country. Mostly unchanged in our lifetimes but regardless of the quality of the summer range, if the winter range won't support the numbers the summer range will go unused.

[JimmyHoffa]

I don't know how to stop encroachment, private property once family farms turned subdivision and timber company lands selling off timberless scrub lands and blocking access due to slobs.

We had a scare of fed lands being sold to the state,  but that scare has past, no one wants to sell off federal lands, there's no political path there any longer.

The state is trading lands here and there, but to my knowledge isn't selling it off on a grand scale 

Sooo, what's the solution to homes being built on winter range?   Stop illegal migration is one small factor, those once swank California neighborhoods being turned into homeless street toilets push those city folk into the country (and other cities, states as well if course)

Other than mass deportations, stopping flow of drugs, welfare revamp and cleaning up cities I got no ideas how to stop homes in deer ranges.

So I talk about things that can (in theory) be done, but honestly here Karl...I see no viable path before us that will turn hunting around in this state anytime soon, the wrong leaders are in power and it is opposite of thier agenda to increase hunting opportunities 

I didn't vote for any of them

I would guess a few taxes would do....a state income tax that even targeted retirement (as long as it was higher than California's).  I think there would be a lot of empty houses and unfinished houses.

[baldopepper]

I'm kind of wondering if eventually the deer in Washington will adapt like the deer in the east and parts of the Midwest have.  By that, I mean will they become somewhat urbanized. I realize that we are talking whitetail as opposed to mule deer, but still, the herds there have somewhat learned to live with urban sprawl.  They have thrived due partially to this adaption and also from the intensive micro managing on the many private clubs and hunting leases. This is all new stuff to our western herds. I've been watching a basic herd of mule deer that hang out on my property and the adjoining neighbors. Twenty years ago this herd was approximately 10-12 that pretty much disappeared during the summer months, showed back up when the hunts started and spent the winter. Now this herd is between 80-100 and they never leave.Theyve become somewhat urbanized,still leery but not overly spooked by basic daily human activities. They no longer migrate and seem to know they are safe and have everything they need in the general area. Third and fourth generation are even more calm.Eastern deer are into their 15+ generation of urbanized deer. We already see it in some of our smaller towns where the city deer never leave and seem to be thriving.Suspect we'll start seeing more private clubs and hunting leases pop up (obviously some around already) and with that the micro managing they can afford  i.e food plots and game friendly land management. Can't say I like it, but it might be the salvation of our deer herds.

[Skyvalhunter]

Well it's already happened to some mule deer they collared in the Methow. A high percentage are now hanging out in the Apple orchards of Chelan and Manson

[huntnnw]

So what about areas with very little predation or stagnant predator populations John? How do you explain away those deer populations?

Which areas would those be, my friend? Bears and cougars are overpopulated all over the state. Even coyotes are thick in the cities as well as the countryside. Again, I'm not saying there aren't other factors. But I think predators play a major role. Look at the densely populated eastern states that have massive deer populations, for instance. What don't they have? An overabundance of predators. They haven't had near as much sustainable habitat as we have for centuries. Yet their ungulates thrive. Wait until CWD arrives. We won't have any MD left.

let's unpack this a bit.

Coyotes: As far as I can tell nobody is really counting coyotes. With that said, my own personal experience of 20 years as a hard core coyote hunter and solidly 1k+ dogs under my belt from the crest trail to the idaho boarder I can say with confidence there are no more coyotes than there has ever been in that 20 years. If anything with the boom in popularity of coyote hunting one could argue there's a few less than there used to be.

Bears: every last one of you guys arguing with me have been shouting from the roof tops that wdfw commission needs to follow the science on bears. Well a big factor in how bios measure bear densities is hunter harvest. In general, the more animals the greater the harvest. When we look at bear harvest over the last decade the only measurable increase is starting in 2019. Coincidentally thats the same year we went to 2 bears statewide and an Aug 1 opener. Before that it was 1425-1500 bears statewide like clockwork. So how is it we have to follow the science when it comes to spring bear but we can ignore the science when playing the blame game   there's definitely some problem areas, like the NE corner where there are areas you can see far more bears than deer. Or the blues in the spring where its nothing to see 5-10+ bears in a weekend if the onions are ripe. Though the recent blues study shows bears are less of a burden on calves than originally most of us thought (me included).

Cougars: There are 49 gmu's in WA that annually record 0-1 cat kills over all categories. Statewide harvest fluctuates but for the most part is within 50 cats or so. So how is it that if ungulate populations continue to tank (less food) cat populations continue to explode even though harvest data doesn't support that? How is it that all animals face starvation and population decreases when their food sources deplete but somehow predators go the opposite direction 🤔 if the science is there I'm sure not seeing it.

And once again for those that refuse to read what I keep saying over and over, PREDATORS ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM, but no more a part as human encroachment.

Idaho did a study not that long ago in the Lochsa and Selway river areas on elk calf mortality. The numbers were 48-52% of calves were killed by black bears

[bearpaw]

I think everyone relates to the problems in the areas they hunt. Karl relates to human encroachment because that is happening in his area. I relate to predators because that's a huge issue in my area, and Humptulips suggested part of the problem is caused by poor hunting in western WA so more hunters travel east. I think we are all correct, some factors are probably bigger factors or lesser factors depending on which part of the state you have experience, but these are all problems our deer face. 

Karl, when I said I didn't think housing developments were the biggest problem, that there aren't enough deer to use the available habitat I was really thinking of NE Washington and I should have said that. In this area there is a lot of winter range that used to be full of mule deer, that winter range is still there, there are no housing developments, it's federal land that can't be developed. But our herds have so many predators they keep getting smaller. A prime example is the east slope of the Kettle Crest coming off Sherman Pass. There is a ton of empty winter range, much of it has locked gates, no access, no homes, you can't even blame the tribe, there's no access for them to get off the highway into most of that winter range. You really can't even blame hunters for the continued decline either, there has been no mule doe hunting for years here and bucks have to be bigger than 3 point, none of them live that long here. Literally very few mule deer are even legal to shoot here, yet they continue to decline.

I do understand the situation is different in your area and probably what you are professing is likely very accurate. 

[Special T]

Come on T. I said right in that post that predators are a factor. I never once stated its a habit vs predator issue.  And I'll correct you on the "think" portion of your statement that habit loss is an issue. Its a FACT that habitat loss is a giant elephant in the room. When you develop USABLE habitat on your winter ranges into housing and strip malls you degrade the carrying capacity of land. That equals less deer. Plain and simple. How many historic migration routes throughout the west have had roads and housing developments punched right through them? The answer is an immense amount. We (not WA) are just now catching up to a lot of it with land purchases,  animal bridges, etc to help correct some but for lots of herds its too late and those routes are lost forever.  Predators are the easy button when looking at things to blame. God forbid as a human race we look in the mirror when playing the blame game...

You made a couple assertions that I either missed or you assumed.  I am not an English major, and if memory serves correct neither are you.  I am engaging you in honest debate because I do not have all the answers. I thought I gave us each enough outs so that we could clarify our positions. You have miss understood me so I must be more blunt and direct. You claim  areas exist where depredation are not a problem but encroachment is. Where specifically are you speaking. I ask this so that the conversation is specific and we do not resort to name calling without detailed reasoning.

You claim we are building in migration routes.  This is a claim that has anecdotal evidence. I have seen the Wyoming study. Advocating for one or more in WA is a good idea. It appears to me that is the positive goal you should be working for. Perhaps your friends in MDF and elsewhere would agree. I agree that it is a worthy endeavor but  others because we feel predators is a problem.  Impunity others assertions only degrades fellow Sportsmen of your beliefs. Collar Datta in WY is amazing and you would do much better for your and Sportsmen cause to raise money for collar studies.

We both know that really hard Datta is necessary to convince this comission of anything..

Common sense tells me you are not wrong, but it also tells me that predators a big problem. The extent of each are debatable but a collar survey would clarify a lot.

I think k theybwould be great for deer and elk fyi.