Wolves eating all our deer

[jackelope]

here's 2 honest questions. a lot of folks know the valley a lot better than i do...and i think most of you guys know where i stand on the wolf topic, but whats been itching the back of my head...

1-how may wolves do you all figure are running around up there? 10? 20? 8?

2-the lookout pack has been around and established for how long...a couple years? how many wolves? do you guys think the wolves decimated the deer herds in the methow in the course of a couple years? or does it have to do with a series of bad winters, poor winter range, development, etc plus now the wolves.
last year this time we were talking about how much winter kill there was because of the snow, the year before the same thing....etc.
this point of view is not meant to reignite this topic, i don't think it needs it, and i am also not in favor of wolves here at all, but i think it's a legit question.

[WDFW-SUX]

1-how may wolves do you all figure are running around up there? 10? 20? 8?

20 this year 30 next and 50 the year after.

2-the lookout pack has been around and established for how long...a couple years? how many wolves? do you guys think the wolves decimated the deer herds in the methow in the course of a couple years? or does it have to do with a series of bad winters, poor winter range, development, etc plus now the wolves.

The issues are hunting seasons through the end of October for several years, Loss of winter range (on going), and Bad winters of recent years....then wolves all of which have a negative impact and have pushed the population to a point that it will not be able to have enough recruitment for future non permit only hunting seasons.  

WHEN the wolf population doubles and it will there will be almost no fawns to replace the older deer harvested by cars hunters and Wolves.

The Vally winter range is too small and there will be too many wolves camped on the deer for the population to replace itself its an awful situation...Picture putting a wolf pac in the Oak creek parking lot and expecting the elk to fair well.

In five years the entire valley will be a permit only deer hunt.

[boneaddict]

1-how may wolves do you all figure are running around up there? 10? 20? 8?

I wish I could answer that, but you can't get a straight answer form anyone so you have to do all the legwork on your own.  What "I know"  was there were three(the two adults and one pup that "made it" and 8 more showed up.  None of those included any black wolves which everyone keeps talking about.  Haven't seen him myself and figured it was heresay (skeptical).  I figure there is enough lore that every coyote, dog etc or even now shadow is going to be considered a wolf.   That puts you in the 10-12 range.  Now there was a pack running up in anotehr area that had at least 3 in it.  There have been wolves in that area for some time....could easily be in the range of the parents and pup I had seen earlier...and I have seen sign in another portion of the valley.  Some believe its the same ones, don't know.  Pics show up on here from Sooperfly and such and they "look different than the ones I had tabs on.  Now are they some of the new ones  some from different area in the state like the Lincoln county ones or Ferry/Stevens ones......

2-the lookout pack has been around and established for how long...a couple years? how many wolves? do you guys think the wolves decimated the deer herds in the methow in the course of a couple years? or does it have to do with a series of bad winters, poor winter range, development, etc plus now the wolves.

The Libby creek pack was there in the late 80's, early 90's.  I saw my first one about 88 I suppose, somewhere in there.  The government wanted to keep it a big secret.  Fish and wildlife informed us to not tell anyone but our supervisor if we saw anything while cutting thinning etc.  I believe these were the smaller wolves, though up close and personal at 20 feet or so, they look pretty damn big.  There was limited wolf sign all through that time period.  The biggest game population change I witnessed at that time was while hunting and I ran into the before mentioned pack.  An area I loved to hunt and would see TONS of deer, almost none.  I didn't panic, figured they would move on and the deer would come back.  I then started playing tag with wolves over in Ferry.  These were Greys.  You want to talk about a big animal.  Alta was my premier tag choice as I grew up next to it ans saw some ungodly lovely bucks, and so forth.  I saw a huge decline in the last year and chalked it up to winter, but it was still my top choice.  I drew for it and was absolutely amazed of the acute lack of deer.  I had the best hunting weather possible with high mountain snows etc.  The animals never showed up.  I didn't even go shed hunting where I normally do as when I went and scouted it, there wasn't a trail or track, where there is normally hundreds.  Then in ana area that Sky is familiar with that I go I will see anywhere from 1000 to 500 deer.  The fluctauation being the normal winter, harsh winter etc and how they fair.  This year was under a 100 deer.  Can I blame it on the winter...not all of it.  It was a harsh enough winter that all the animals WOULD BE THERE.    I found where they denned last year and there were fawn carcasses stacked like cord wood.  I thought that was interesting.  I'm not sure I understood all of the bones in that particular spot, but it was certainly an eye opener.  At that time, I didn't see any fresh wolf sign, and I was told they had moved intot he Sawtooth to find more game.  Made sense to me.  In the meantime other Alta tag holders were having mass encounters with them.    

last year this time we were talking about how much winter kill there was because of the snow, the year before the same thing....etc.
this point of view is not meant to reignite this topic, i don't think it needs it, and i am also not in favor of wolves here at all, but i think it's a legit question

.

Well, if you believe a guy that gets around more than most, and has 30= years of intense experience in the area, and we are looking at a range that has lots of winter range, there is something different than just winters now.  A tough winter helps the herd out a lot in the long run.  It softens the abuse the range takes.  Twins are often absorbed and one STRONG fawn is raised.  Genes blah blah are weeded out.  Back to back bad winters are more easily handled as the animals go in with more reserves, stronger deer etc.  Unless catastrophic, they will recover.  They aren't recovering.   Talk about evidence, that isn't just hearsay, look at tag numbers and population densities in areas like Idaho and Wyoming.  Animals like moose can't stand up to a pack.  Once in their site, neither can the healthiest mule deer.  That isn't just emotion talking.

[bearpaw]

From a Concerned Resident,
Sometimes it's hard to separate facts from here say. I want to help you decide!!!

If you look at all the info there are some undisputable facts from state agencies and news sources that verify under hunted populations of wolves are destroying ungulate populations in the Mountain West, the upper Midwest, Canada, and Alaska.

This info shows what has happened in other wolf areas and demonstrates what will likely happen as wolves populate Washington. I would like to see the reasoning that would demonstrate why wolves will not have the same effect in Washington

I made it easy for everyone to look at this info by clicking on the links; I would suggest copying and pasting all this info in an email message to all hunters and concerned landowners that you know:

http://www.saveelk.com/
http://www.saveelk.com/wolf_003.htm
http://rliv.com/wolf/AP-Wolf%20Kills.pdf
http://rliv.com/wolf/Wolf-Lolo.pdf
http://rliv.com/pic/bergerid%20and%20elliot%2098.pdf
http://rliv.com/pic/Palin.pdf
http://rliv.com/pic/LewisClark.pdf
http://rliv.com/pic/Wolves%20And%20Hunting.pdf
http://rliv.com/pic/Selected%20Quotes.pdf
http://rliv.com/pic/Need%20For%20Wolf%20Mgt.pdf

[url]http://rliv.com/wolf/AnchorageDaily.pdf]http://rliv.com/pic/propertyrights.pdf[url]
[url]http://rliv.com/wolf/AnchorageDaily.pdf
http://rliv.com/wolf/Alaska%20Peninsula.pdf

wwwsaveelk.com. I ask you to review the other info this website.

Please note the dozens of wolf killed elk photos, all the news reports, scientific documents, and news articles from many sources? Watch the video posted on this page about the Idaho F&G Commission meeting showing facts of F&G studies, "look for the flashing star on this page" http://www.saveelk.com/wolf_006.htm.

The author of the Outdoorsman has worked extensively with ID F&G, he used to fly helicopters for them on their game counts and was involved in studies. Here's the info he shares on his pages:
http://www.blogger.com/profile/15185092008265237203
http://rliv.com/pic/The%20Outdoorsman%20Sept.pdf
http://westinstenv.org/wibio/2008/04/06/what-they-didn%E2%80%99t-tell-you-about-wolf-recovery/

I found this letter about the "OUTDOORSMAN" on www.saveelk.com.

• Wolf introduction –fraud and deception
 
TO ALL:
 
            THIS WELL RESEARCHED ARTICLE OF THE OUTDOORSMAN IS AN ACCURATE AND FULL DISCLOSURE OF THE DECEPTION INVOLVED IN THE WOLF “REINTRODUCTION.” IT NAMES “NAMES,” DATES, AND PROVIDES PRECISE DOCUMENTATION OF THE OUT AND OUT FRAUD THAT HAS BEEN PURPETRATED ON THE PEOPLE OF IDAHO. THE ARTICLE LEAVES NO DOUBT THAT THE MEDIA HAS BEEN COMPLICIT IN THIS DECEPTION. THIS IS THE BEST SUMMARY OF THIS TRAGIC STORY THAT I HAVE SEEN TO DATE.
 
            IF EVER THERE WERE REASON FOR THE PEOPLE OF IDAHO TO STAND UP AND REJECT THIS ENTIRE MESS, THIS IS IT. THE WOLF INITIATIVE PETITION CURRENTLY CIRCULATING PROVIDES THAT OPPORTUNITY. IT REQUIRES THE STATE OF IDAHO TO SEVER ITSELF FROM THIS FEDERAL DISASTER AND BOYCOTT ANY PARTICIPATON IN WOLF REINTRODUCTION AND MANAGEMENT. IF PASSED, THE TAXPAYERS OF IDAHO WOULD BE FREED FROM PAYING FOR MANAGEMENT OF THIS FEDERAL PROGRAM BY IDAHO DEPARTMENT OF FISH AND GAME. BEING NO LONGER INVOLVED, THE STATE OF IDAHO WOULD BE IN A POSITION TO ACT INDEPENDENTLY ON BEHALF OF ITS CITIZENS REGARDING WOLF DEPREDATIONS AND DISEASE.
 
BEST REGARDS,
 
John L. Runft
Runft & Steele Law Offices, PLLC
1020 W. Main St., Suite 400
Boise, Idaho 83702

[wolfbait]

Good Job, bearpaw,,,,,,,,,,And there you have it!!!!!!!!!!!!! from longshot and his dog wolfbait,,,,,,,,,

[boneaddict]

If wolves were so wonderful, why was Idaho trying to give them away.........

Sent you a pm wolfbait.......

[JackOfAllTrades]

This pack is most certainly not the only one in the state.

There's been the black ones sighted on an off for a while, and the stories of the Grey's in Ferry county go back to at least the early 70's.

I figure there is enough lore that every coyote, dog etc or even now shadow is going to be considered a wolf.

I'm no wildlife biologist but I'm pretty sure I've encountered at least one Wolf south of Packwood lake in the late 70's and a couple up near Billy Goat pass in the early 90's. I've heard of Wolves in the Granite Lakes, Jordan Lakes area too.

I am betting that there are more Wolves in this state than the WDFW knows about.

-Steve

[boneaddict]

There has been.  Yet another reason I don't believe a thing they have said.

[Kain]

My brother saw three wolves in Indian Heavens Wilderness area in the 90's.  They were on the trail just past Thomas Lake.  I have heard other say the same.  I always believed the that they just traveled down the Pacific Crest trail and they were a fluke transient pack.  But after the research I have done this week I am sure there have been wolves here in Washington for around 20 years.  WDFW is now claiming that wolves are here because they thought they might loose the federal money after the wolves got delisted. 

[wolfbait]

Its like the biologist said back before they stared the reintroduction, the wolves were coming in on there own, and they would have benn here in another 30 er so years. But that wasn't quik enough for some. as far as mistaking one of these wolves for a coyote, I have seen these wolves alongside of coyotes and its like looking at a black lab standing along side of a shetland pony, they are a big wolf. If the lookout pack is the only pack in the state, then it is a world record pack size and we should report it, just think the first wolf pack to reach 250 wolves in the okanogan, now that might be alittle high for the okanogan, but its probably close or maybe its more. As for the whole state of Washington, the more people that you hear from seeing wolves around the country, who knows.

[JackOfAllTrades]

Indian Heavens Wilderness area

...

Well, I've seen some big-ass tracks down there, but never a set of ears to confirm anything. So many people hike that area, as the crest trail perimiters part of that boundry, with large dogs so it's tough to say.

Testar77 and I have a story about criss-crossing Indian Heavens for about 5 hours of darkness one night. He was gimpin a bit, we were worried about his dad's health, I beat feet (alone) out for miles of cross country and trail to go get the rig back at camp. Hiking in the dark brings new perspective to when you stop to take a drink, 'you feel like you're being watched'. But what, and how many of them are watching you?... That's the question.

-Steve

[Ridgerunner]

Know of a couple of encounters in the Rimrock lake area in the early 90's.  Thats not too far from the indianhaven area. 

[bearpaw]

I am sorry to say, WDFW knows less about the number of wolves than many local residents. They have some really good people working for them, but the majority of their time is being taken up by eagle counts, pine martin, fischer, grizzly, caribou, and other listed species monitoring.

We have confirmed wolves in Stevens and Pend Orrielle county. There are also more than F&W know about, but I guess we can't count them until F&G confirms them.

If you look at all the info links in my previous message it gives you the history of what will likely happen in Washington via what has already happened in numerous other states.

The really scarey part is that there are not enough country minded residents in Washington to overcome the loud voice of the 3 county concrete jungle in the voting booth and in the legislature.

[boneaddict]

I am sure there have been wolves here in Washington for around 20 years

They have always been here, but they were a different critter.

[Kain]

I am sure there have been wolves here in Washington for around 20 years

They have always been here, but they were a different critter.

I am sure you are right but I just meant twenty years ago it was confirmed by a government agency.  NPS