Here come the bears

[Mudman]

We all had one up north of Republic about 7 years ago.  But that isnt really new news up there.  Wyoming bears are pretty damn mean.  This will be disaster and devastation in slow motion.  No winners.

[trophyhunt]

We all had one up north of Republic about 7 years ago.  But that isnt really new news up there.  Wyoming bears are pretty damn mean.  This will be disaster and devastation in slow motion.  No winners.

Truth!  Those WY grizz don’t give two chits!  They guys that took me in 14 miles in the wilderness showed me their video of them shooting .300 mags at a grizz’s feet, he just looked at them and slowly walked away.  We slept w pistols under our pillows. 

[mcrawfordaf]

The anti-hunters are just thrilled: https://conservationnw.org/news-updates/conservation-groups-welcome-the-return-of-the-grizzly-to-the-north-cascades/

[James]

Did you guys take a look at the release sites?

-One of the proposed release sites has the PCT trail going though the middle of it.
-They are all quick walk to Ross and Baker lake.

It's like they want to turn hippies into Griz treats.

[Hirt]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but I think it will be kind of cool to have them in the state. They are already in the NE corner, so I am not following why it's such a big deal.

[James]

Probably an unpopular opinion, but I think it will be kind of cool to have them in the state. They are already in the NE corner, so I am not following why it's such a big deal.

I too used to be for it, but have since changed my mind for these reasons:

-While I haven't read every page of this one, the last couple were far lighter on science than they should be. Lots of handwaving about "we killed them off, it's our duty to put them back" instead of science.
-High chance of failure, we have griz roll in and out of WA as they please but they really don't stick around. If WA was good griz habitat they would stay, so it's a pretty big ahole move to air drop these bears into places they don't want to be.  I bet most will either bail out of WA, become problem bears, or die.
-We have a wonderful black bear population, no doubt if they stick around thats going to be hurt.
-Look at the human, road, and trail density of WA vs WY, it is going to be impossible for these things to stay out of trouble.
-Look at what they think acceptable Griz habitat is, Cle Elum for god sakes.
-Look at the proposed release sites, PTC trail, Baker, Ross lake.  So many people, it's like they want to feed the bears hippies.
-The Anti's are going to screw us with this.
-Griz are a pain in the butt, that's just a fact.  It's really nice to be in the Cascades and not have to worry about much.
-We have so many more pressing wildlife and wildplace issues to spend time and money on.


It's very annoying they can't see what they are doing to these Griz are not just a giant a hole move to the bears, but probably a death sentence to many.  I have a feeling these so called Griz advocates are really just using them as a pawn and don't care about the bears at all.

If they do stick around, I am looking forward to the Youtube videos of Griz killing elk in Suncadia in front of the type of people that like to spend time in Suncadia. It will be better than the Estes Park videos.

[JimmyHoffa]

Pretty much every grizz is a problem near.  Some places have enough territory that the grizz don't get to cause a problem.  I don't think Washington is one of those places.  They just want to eat all the time, the easier the food source the better.  Really don't foresee them living secretly high in the cascades eating berries and grubs.  Be eating a lot of campers with a side of mountain house.

[Hirt]

I too used to be for it, but have since changed my mind for these reasons:

-While I haven't read every page of this one, the last couple were far lighter on science than they should be. Lots of handwaving about "we killed them off, it's our duty to put them back" instead of science.
-High chance of failure, we have griz roll in and out of WA as they please but they really don't stick around. If WA was good griz habitat they would stay, so it's a pretty big ahole move to air drop these bears into places they don't want to be.  I bet most will either bail out of WA, become problem bears, or die.
-We have a wonderful black bear population, no doubt if they stick around thats going to be hurt.
-Look at the human, road, and trail density of WA vs WY, it is going to be impossible for these things to stay out of trouble.
-Look at what they think acceptable Griz habitat is, Cle Elum for god sakes.
-Look at the proposed release sites, PTC trail, Baker, Ross lake.  So many people, it's like they want to feed the bears hippies.
-The Anti's are going to screw us with this.
-Griz are a pain in the butt, that's just a fact.  It's really nice to be in the Cascades and not have to worry about much.
-We have so many more pressing wildlife and wildplace issues to spend time and money on.


It's very annoying they can't see what they are doing to these Griz are not just a giant a hole move to the bears, but probably a death sentence to many.  I have a feeling these so called Griz advocates are really just using them as a pawn and don't care about the bears at all.

If they do stick around, I am looking forward to the Youtube videos of Griz killing elk in Suncadia in front of the type of people that like to spend time in Suncadia. It will be better than the Estes Park videos.
[/quote]

Good points. I too was confused at the locations they had picked out. Conflict will happen, either with black bears or people. At least for now they are in a non-essential, experimental status, so problem bears can be removed. I am not sure many people on both sides realize that.

I do recognize that there needs to be a balance between development and nature. Repopulating extirpated species back into their original range is something I generally support. But the support needs to be from the locals where the animals are going. Is the main issue the fact that grizzlies are apex predators in nature? What if the federal government wanted to place bison back into their original range? Would there be the same support and opposition for them?


I don't live near the release sites either, if I did, I would probably have a different opinion on the grizzlies. With that being said, I can empathize with both sides here. In the end, the government will do what they want and there isn't much we can do about it.   

[Loup Loup]

Will be interesting to see the shannanigans the feds try to pull when they must “take”grizzly’s from populations that are deemed endangered, where no “take” is acceptable, and move them to an area where the population is deemed non-essential and experimental.

[Loup Loup]

Pretty much how Oregon pawned off their cattle killing endangered wolves on to Colorado.

[mcrawfordaf]

I've recently been reading about the Hudson Bay Trading Co and the shipping/logistics that went into the fur trade. Since then my biggest concern with introducing grizzlies is that there is actually little evidence of them having a large population in the North Cascades of WA. From one study on "Historical Reports of Grizzly Bears in the North Cascades Region":

"The objective of this review was to synthesize existing information from several disparate fields of
study concerning the historical presence of grizzly bears in the North Cascades region and to survey
possible contributing factors to the observed dynamics. While this review was not exhaustive, it
should be noted that there is certainly a lack of historical demographic data for the region’s grizzly
bears. The scarcity of information is in some respects puzzling and has understandably led some to
doubt that Washington State was ever home to viable populations; however, we suggest that there is
an intrinsic fallacy in the act of drawing conclusions based on a scarcity of evidence (Fischer 1970).
Specifically, the lack of information for any given time period does not prove the absence of grizzly
bears in the North Cascades. More research should be undertaken to supplement data gaps, especially
during the post-Columbian historical time period. A highly valuable and relatively accessible area of
research lies in the Pacific Northwest’s ethnographic literature and collective traditional ecological
knowledge (TEK; Huntington 2000). Time and resources permitting, we would have more fully
explored this body of information that clearly represents generations of detailed and highly reliable
observations."

From some of the books I've been reading and listening to about these early explorers and fur trappers - they very rarely, if ever, mention grizzly bear sightings around the regions that would be WA. They all, or at least the majority, came from Canada.

[bigmacc]

Like I said earlier, this is a “political move” imo that is just another piece of the puzzle to carry out anti hunting agendas. Theres no way a state like Washington is even remotely close to the demographics of Wyoming including the vast, remote landscape that Wyoming has to offer compared to the small pockets Washington has. Like I said earlier, eventually this will have negative implications for not only the bears but for our deer herds and humans and pretty much anything else they stumble onto or gets in their way when they’re hungry.

MtMuley said it best…..”let the maulings begin”

[Ntbutcher]

The anti-hunters are just thrilled: https://conservationnw.org/news-updates/conservation-groups-welcome-the-return-of-the-grizzly-to-the-north-cascades/

"alpine gardeners of the North Cascades" is a real gem from this. 

[dwils233]

Conflict will happen, either with black bears or people. At least for now they are in a non-essential, experimental status, so problem bears can be removed. I am not sure many people on both sides realize that.

This is one of the better discussion points that seems to be left aside by everyone.

They could have brought them without a 10j- worst outcome, or they could have waited for a grizzly to set up residency, which brings it's own restrictions and protections. They could have not brought them and we could hope they never show up...or they do a 10j, which allows for more liberal control efforts (like lethal removal for conflict) and less restrictions for landowners. It's about as good an option as was on the table at the end of the day.

Even if you hate the idea of reintroduction, it could have been worse is all I'm saying to keep things in context.

[JimmyHoffa]

At what point, though, does wdfw have influence over the bears and give them special status.  Start moving the goal posts such that the lethal removal is nearly impossible.