Idaho bobcat jaw collection

[Loup Loup]

From Corey Mosby IDFG Furbear Coordinator
This season marks the 6th year the Department has been collecting bobcat jaws on a voluntary basis.
Through this effort we’ve been able to collect samples from approximately 25% of the total annual harvest. These samples provide us with the age and sex structure of the population and provide insight on reproduction and genetic health. Thank you for your participation. We plan to continue this collection effort next season. For those that did not participate, please consider doing so next season and remember we now offer $10.00 per jaw to help compensate you for your effort. If you have any questions or concerns about this effort, please give me a call.

[Loup Loup]

Will be interesting to see what kind of a system WDFW mandates.

[JakeLand]

Eric you and I both know this state won’t give a penny for compensation as they actually want you to NOT kill cats

[Loup Loup]

Hey Jake. Yea, not expecting any compensation from the All Knowing All Owning WDFW.
But going to be fun to see how burdensome they can make this process, compared to IDFG.

[blnelson]

I will be part of the study in Idaho. Has Washington made up there mines yet on all the ways the skull will need to be presented?

[Loup Loup]

I haven’t heard anything. Would like to have trappers involved in the process. We have tried.

[JakeLand]

From me they will get the whole skull in whatever stage of decomposition it’s in

[bugs n bones]

Eric you and I both know this state won’t give a penny for compensation as they actually want you to NOT kill cats

[TeacherMan]

If I didn’t sell them on the taxidermy market I’d send them all in. I’m just glad Idaho understands this and allows me to sell them in the whole still after I get them tagged.

[Trapper John]

Hey Jake. Yea, not expecting any compensation from the All Knowing All Owning WDFW.
But going to be fun to see how burdensome they can make this process, compared to IDFG.

There is a big difference between Idaho Game Department and Washington.  Idaho wants to work with their trappers and trapper association. 
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife does not work with trappers and every trapper is an outlaw (their words) and the department Game Agents are "trained" to "create" revenue." (their words) 

WDFW does not manage fish or wildlife, they're all about "money" ........... "Creating revenue"

So, watch your backs they're not your friends.

[Loup Loup]

Breaking news:
We, representatives of WSTA, have offered an olive branch to WDFW, in that we have asked them to attend the roundevous in August, and give us guidance as to what they want/expect in these jaws.
To their credit, they are agreeable (so far so good)to trappers helping develope methods/ procedures on how to extract these jaws. We also want insight, ideas from taxidermists and predator hunters.
Our goal is to help guide this process to make it as less invasive, burdensome to the harvester as possible, and yet, produce a specimen that will yield usable data.

[UrbanTrapper]

Let's at least ASK them if WDFW will give us $10 for a whole, dried in the freezer, skull. That's about all I could sell them for in 2024 anyway.

[Frank The Tank]

Breaking news:
We, representatives of WSTA, have offered an olive branch to WDFW, in that we have asked them to attend the roundevous in August, and give us guidance as to what they want/expect in these jaws.
To their credit, they are agreeable (so far so good)to trappers helping develope methods/ procedures on how to extract these jaws. We also want insight, ideas from taxidermists and predator hunters.
Our goal is to help guide this process to make it as less invasive, burdensome to the harvester as possible, and yet, produce a specimen that will yield usable data.

I think (relatively speaking) this is huge.  In the conversations I've had with the WDFW biologists, they were naively surprised that the verbiage of how the jaws would be turned in was confusing, and would add friction. 

One thing I think we need to realize.  1. Turning in the jaws is a done deal. 2. Canines have been proven over and over in multiple states to put age window in days. In retrospect-hindsight being 20/20, instead of focusing on incisors and such, we collectively should have put weight on things like "voluntary" and a cash "bounty" to encourage participation.   These same biologists were surprised-shocked-that not every trapper skinned, put up, their own hides.  To these persons' credit (NOT BIG WDFW) they listened to the taker/harvester perspective of how to best meet their goals. To this end they want us to show-even teach-them on best practices from taking a raw skull to separating the jaw and completing this the way WE think it should be done.  When was the last time WDFW asked for this? This is a great way to influence future decisions (things go better when they go our way)

For those nay-sayers, and "I'll just give them the whole skull and too bad" crowd.  1. You KNOW this won't work. You won't get your pelt sealed and then be mad about it. See how that helps us as an organization. 2. Folks bitch that WDFW won't work with us, and when they offer to, folks bitch that they are.  No one says trust them. But this is a way to influence through action and behavior.  We CAN'T stop the decision on collecting jaws. That boat has sailed. We CAN influence how, which gives legitimacy to WSTA. 

[Frank The Tank]

Let's at least ASK them if WDFW will give us $10 for a whole, dried in the freezer, skull. That's about all I could sell them for in 2024 anyway.

I think this, presented in the correct way, would show them they would get more participation, and we WSTA might actually influence this in the future.  Something we probably should have focused on when this thing first came out.

[JakeLand]

Breaking news:
We, representatives of WSTA, have offered an olive branch to WDFW, in that we have asked them to attend the roundevous in August, and give us guidance as to what they want/expect in these jaws.
To their credit, they are agreeable (so far so good)to trappers helping develope methods/ procedures on how to extract these jaws. We also want insight, ideas from taxidermists and predator hunters.
Our goal is to help guide this process to make it as less invasive, burdensome to the harvester as possible, and yet, produce a specimen that will yield usable data.

I think (relatively speaking) this is huge.  In the conversations I've had with the WDFW biologists, they were naively surprised that the verbiage of how the jaws would be turned in was confusing, and would add friction. 

One thing I think we need to realize.  1. Turning in the jaws is a done deal. 2. Canines have been proven over and over in multiple states to put age window in days. In retrospect-hindsight being 20/20, instead of focusing on incisors and such, we collectively should have put weight on things like "voluntary" and a cash "bounty" to encourage participation.   These same biologists were surprised-shocked-that not every trapper skinned, put up, their own hides.  To these persons' credit (NOT BIG WDFW) they listened to the taker/harvester perspective of how to best meet their goals. To this end they want us to show-even teach-them on best practices from taking a raw skull to separating the jaw and completing this the way WE think it should be done.  When was the last time WDFW asked for this? This is a great way to influence future decisions (things go better when they go our way)

For those nay-sayers, and "I'll just give them the whole skull and too bad" crowd.  1. You KNOW this won't work. You won't get your pelt sealed and then be mad about it. See how that helps us as an organization. 2. Folks bitch that WDFW won't work with us, and when they offer to, folks bitch that they are.  No one says trust them. But this is a way to influence through action and behavior.  We CAN'T stop the decision on collecting jaws. That boat has sailed. We CAN influence how, which gives legitimacy to WSTA.

your wrong Frank 1) I lose money giving them the jaw to a cat 2) I lose money because time is money as you know taking out he jaw takes time 3) there are ONLY 2 age classes of cats period juvenile or adult so what’s the difference and why do they care of the age class when this state is literally loaded with cats
All the trappers in this state trapping cats don’t touch 1% of the country trapping , you can trap a area every year and catch every cat in that area and next year there will be just as many that fill in
They won’t do crap with the teeth as we all know it’s very stupid

[predatorpro]

Breaking news:
We, representatives of WSTA, have offered an olive branch to WDFW, in that we have asked them to attend the roundevous in August, and give us guidance as to what they want/expect in these jaws.
To their credit, they are agreeable (so far so good)to trappers helping develope methods/ procedures on how to extract these jaws. We also want insight, ideas from taxidermists and predator hunters.
Our goal is to help guide this process to make it as less invasive, burdensome to the harvester as possible, and yet, produce a specimen that will yield usable data.

I think (relatively speaking) this is huge.  In the conversations I've had with the WDFW biologists, they were naively surprised that the verbiage of how the jaws would be turned in was confusing, and would add friction. 

One thing I think we need to realize.  1. Turning in the jaws is a done deal. 2. Canines have been proven over and over in multiple states to put age window in days. In retrospect-hindsight being 20/20, instead of focusing on incisors and such, we collectively should have put weight on things like "voluntary" and a cash "bounty" to encourage participation.   These same biologists were surprised-shocked-that not every trapper skinned, put up, their own hides.  To these persons' credit (NOT BIG WDFW) they listened to the taker/harvester perspective of how to best meet their goals. To this end they want us to show-even teach-them on best practices from taking a raw skull to separating the jaw and completing this the way WE think it should be done.  When was the last time WDFW asked for this? This is a great way to influence future decisions (things go better when they go our way)

For those nay-sayers, and "I'll just give them the whole skull and too bad" crowd.  1. You KNOW this won't work. You won't get your pelt sealed and then be mad about it. See how that helps us as an organization. 2. Folks bitch that WDFW won't work with us, and when they offer to, folks bitch that they are.  No one says trust them. But this is a way to influence through action and behavior.  We CAN'T stop the decision on collecting jaws. That boat has sailed. We CAN influence how, which gives legitimacy to WSTA.

This is like saying if we bring our shovels and dig our own holes then maybe they wont bury us in it. The wdfw will only use this data to paint a false picture that too many juvenile cats are harvested each year and further limit our opportunities to trap and hunt. Have they told us how this will benefit hunters or trappers? I would be amazed if a single positive outcome came from this…ill wait to be proven wrong…is it even legal for them to refuse to tag a cat that was legally harvested and is meeting cites requirements?

[Frank The Tank]

Breaking news:
We, representatives of WSTA, have offered an olive branch to WDFW, in that we have asked them to attend the roundevous in August, and give us guidance as to what they want/expect in these jaws.
To their credit, they are agreeable (so far so good)to trappers helping develope methods/ procedures on how to extract these jaws. We also want insight, ideas from taxidermists and predator hunters.
Our goal is to help guide this process to make it as less invasive, burdensome to the harvester as possible, and yet, produce a specimen that will yield usable data.

I think (relatively speaking) this is huge.  In the conversations I've had with the WDFW biologists, they were naively surprised that the verbiage of how the jaws would be turned in was confusing, and would add friction. 

One thing I think we need to realize.  1. Turning in the jaws is a done deal. 2. Canines have been proven over and over in multiple states to put age window in days. In retrospect-hindsight being 20/20, instead of focusing on incisors and such, we collectively should have put weight on things like "voluntary" and a cash "bounty" to encourage participation.   These same biologists were surprised-shocked-that not every trapper skinned, put up, their own hides.  To these persons' credit (NOT BIG WDFW) they listened to the taker/harvester perspective of how to best meet their goals. To this end they want us to show-even teach-them on best practices from taking a raw skull to separating the jaw and completing this the way WE think it should be done.  When was the last time WDFW asked for this? This is a great way to influence future decisions (things go better when they go our way)

For those nay-sayers, and "I'll just give them the whole skull and too bad" crowd.  1. You KNOW this won't work. You won't get your pelt sealed and then be mad about it. See how that helps us as an organization. 2. Folks bitch that WDFW won't work with us, and when they offer to, folks bitch that they are.  No one says trust them. But this is a way to influence through action and behavior.  We CAN'T stop the decision on collecting jaws. That boat has sailed. We CAN influence how, which gives legitimacy to WSTA.

your wrong Frank 1) I lose money giving them the jaw to a cat 2) I lose money because time is money as you know taking out he jaw takes time 3) there are ONLY 2 age classes of cats period juvenile or adult so what’s the difference and why do they care of the age class when this state is literally loaded with cats
All the trappers in this state trapping cats don’t touch 1% of the country trapping , you can trap a area every year and catch every cat in that area and next year there will be just as many that fill in
They won’t do crap with the teeth as we all know it’s very stupid

 While I don't disagree with anything you said, what am I wrong about?  The part that WDFW was using previous precedence from other states to use canines/lower jaw so that was a done deal and we instead of focusing on incisors, should have been proactive on voluntary/bounty, gathered data from states like Idaho where it works? Or the part where if WDFW says we are to turn in a cleaned and dried lower jaw and a person instead attempts to turn in a whole, raw skull because that's just what they are going to do, they will be sorely disappointed?

I do know this:
1. WDFW wants our input on the "how" of prepping/turning in jaws, to a point of us teaching them.  We can't change the fact we have to turn in jaws, but at least we get to cook our own egg.  With this allows conversation to occur regarding this issue, and if nothing else, conversation allows them to give us more intel. 
2.  If we don't engage on this and possibly influence, and instead just sit back on our hands and be mad WDFW made another decision, then why even bother trying on any issue?

[Special T]

I am happy the WSTA is being proactive on this issue. I'm not a trapper but this benefits us all.  It is important to influence the how to when it comes to these things instead of complaining about a dumb set of rules after the fact. Good job guys!
 

[HillHound]

I guess I agree…… to some extent. But I do also think this is dumb set of rules. And will not be surprised one day when we have to turn in one side of our elk or deer rack. They are just coming up with ways to devalue our trophy’s that we display in respect of the animal and remembrance of the time spent with friends and family on the hunt. Why all of a sudden again do we have to give the jaw and the tooth isn’t sufficient? They can get all the info they need from the tooth Or we would be turning in whole moose jaws, big horn sheep jaws,  mountain, goat jaws etc. 
but I guess we should be glad that we can take part in trying to slow the inevitable of them working away on their 1000 cuts to end our traditions

[Frank The Tank]

Breaking news:
We, representatives of WSTA, have offered an olive branch to WDFW, in that we have asked them to attend the roundevous in August, and give us guidance as to what they want/expect in these jaws.
To their credit, they are agreeable (so far so good)to trappers helping develope methods/ procedures on how to extract these jaws. We also want insight, ideas from taxidermists and predator hunters.
Our goal is to help guide this process to make it as less invasive, burdensome to the harvester as possible, and yet, produce a specimen that will yield usable data.

I think (relatively speaking) this is huge.  In the conversations I've had with the WDFW biologists, they were naively surprised that the verbiage of how the jaws would be turned in was confusing, and would add friction. 

One thing I think we need to realize.  1. Turning in the jaws is a done deal. 2. Canines have been proven over and over in multiple states to put age window in days. In retrospect-hindsight being 20/20, instead of focusing on incisors and such, we collectively should have put weight on things like "voluntary" and a cash "bounty" to encourage participation.   These same biologists were surprised-shocked-that not every trapper skinned, put up, their own hides.  To these persons' credit (NOT BIG WDFW) they listened to the taker/harvester perspective of how to best meet their goals. To this end they want us to show-even teach-them on best practices from taking a raw skull to separating the jaw and completing this the way WE think it should be done.  When was the last time WDFW asked for this? This is a great way to influence future decisions (things go better when they go our way)

For those nay-sayers, and "I'll just give them the whole skull and too bad" crowd.  1. You KNOW this won't work. You won't get your pelt sealed and then be mad about it. See how that helps us as an organization. 2. Folks bitch that WDFW won't work with us, and when they offer to, folks bitch that they are.  No one says trust them. But this is a way to influence through action and behavior.  We CAN'T stop the decision on collecting jaws. That boat has sailed. We CAN influence how, which gives legitimacy to WSTA.

This is like saying if we bring our shovels and dig our own holes then maybe they wont bury us in it. The wdfw will only use this data to paint a false picture that too many juvenile cats are harvested each year and further limit our opportunities to trap and hunt. Have they told us how this will benefit hunters or trappers? I would be amazed if a single positive outcome came from this…ill wait to be proven wrong…is it even legal for them to refuse to tag a cat that was legally harvested and is meeting cites requirements?

"This is like saying if we bring our shovels and dig our own holes then maybe they won't bury us in it"  No one is naive enough to think that WDFW can't use/massage data for their own benefit.   However, We either look for ways to influence, or we just sit back and do nothing, only to bitch about the outcome.  If we do nothing on this and other issues, then what is our purpose as an organization? 
As far as data use etc, one point in this is exactly that-getting them (finding a way to mandate as we are stakeholders) to expound on the purpose, goals and to keep our nose under the tent. I would say your statement should rather be "We bring our shovels to fight back when they try to bury us." 

Your last point has validity-can they legally turn away/not tag a hide otherwise legally presented under the Lacy Act?   Those with better research skills than I can probably find the answer to this faster than me.

[UrbanTrapper]

Maybe we should try to keep our own database with sex and age estimates from trappers before they turn in their jaws.  I caught 10 toms ( 9 of which were mature) and no females last year.  I'm convinced that is a very, very low, if any, impact on the overall population in my area. If WSTA collected this data we could dispute any radically unjustified conclusions by any biased employees of the State.

[Loup Loup]

Yes Urban Trapper, this is what I want, filed copies of harvest reports on all species, filed copies of our data sheets we will fill out when sealing cats. Plus a corresponding list of each trappers/hunters cities tag numbers.
This is why we wanted just harvesters filling out data sheets, not WDFW employees. I have seen both bobcats and cougar miss sexed by WDFW staff and recorded as such.
The responsibility will be on us to provide accurate data. And I know sports people will do just that.
There is much more to talk about and plan for. It will take time and work to protect both ourselves and the resource.

[Loup Loup]

Urban Trapper:
You need to harvest more cats.
Male Bobcats kill a number of females when they breed them. They also kill every juvenile Bobcat they can. By managing the population we will take the surplus males therefore leaving more females and juveniles to invigorate the population.
I have always trapped different areas for cats every year. Rotating through in 3-4 years. When I get male to female to juv ratios like yours I know I need to crop this line more.

[UrbanTrapper]

OK, I'll have my list of data including the CITES tag numbers and keep them in my files from now on. I request that other cat trappers do the same.  If we get any suspicious findings from WDFW we can request their data and compare it with ours.  If the WDFW leadership refuses to provide their data (no real scientists would refuse) we can go after WDFW on that.