Lesson from 07 raffle deer hunt

[nwhunter]

First off great job to Wea330mag on his efforts and commitment to his hunt. It was enjoyable to follow you on your hunt especially for those of us who have hunted that country and knew where you were and what you faced every day with weather, fog and roads that time of year while trying to find that buck of a lifetime. I have come home from a "hunt of a lifetime" with my tag unnotched so can relate some to how you probably feel now that it is over. It hurts but when you gave it your all it is still hunting and nothing is guaranteed so be glad for the experience and new friends you have made and go into the new year with your head up.
     As I followed the post week after week my main thought was , wow the entiat is really hurting as far as what used to be a trophy hunt by Washington standards. I believe it was only five years ago that we were over there bowhunting the late season before it went to a draw tag and we saw lots of 22-26" bucks and a few in the 28" range while only hunting one drainage. Then it went to a draw which did limit the bow hunters to 310 tags and  the rifle tags increased to 50 or 60 tags. While we all want to draw those tags and enjoy what is one of Washingtons best late tags I think the tags need to be cut back drastically and let the mature buck population rebuild. A few years back during December you could hunt little pockets up potato and mud creek and see numerous shooter bucks and with all the snow this December they should have been there. After last year I was questioning the lack of bucks but now I really believe we have a problem. That country has the habitat and genes to make for a trophy area but needs to be managed for it. Hopefully the WDFW is noticing this and will cut back tags and right a sinking ship. I am sure there are still some 180 -200 bucks out there that stay out off sight or on private but there should be a lot more 24-26 inch four points on the wintering ground in my opinion. Just my two cents. nwhunter

[huntnphool]

"That country has the habitat and genes to make for a trophy area but needs to be managed for it."

We had this discussion a couple months back, got pretty heated if I remember correctly. I agree it should be managed for the trophy aspect but there are those that believe the trophy aspect means giving up their chance of hunting these areas. They cant see the forest through the trees and its this short sightedness that will destroy these trophy areas. Unfortunately to them quantity is more important than quality and are satisfied with seeing forkies and 2nd year 3 year points.

 As I said in the "3 point" thread, I believe there needs to be a special hunt of some sort that can cull the number of big 2 points and 3 points. It clearly evedent that there are large numbers of these bucks running around spreading these (arguably) deficient genes, leaving less and less does the 4 points breed with.

"Hopefully the WDFW is noticing this and will cut back tags and right a sinking ship"

That would be nice but unlikely. They get way too much preasure from the quantity group over the quality group, lets be real on this one, we are the minority. I understand both sides of the arguement, the difference is I am willing to make some of these areas permit only, and not many of them, to help the number of bigger bucks come back, unfortunatly again, I am the minority. I cant remember who it was on this site that absolutely flipped out last time this was brought up but I'm quite sure he will pop on here and give us his reasoning behind his beliefs, and remember if he does, he is entitled to his opinion folks, even if you dont agree. Maybe we could have a civil, adult discussion on it this time? Just my $.02 by the way!!!

[Lowedog]

The 2 years that the Entiat was open for general late archery put a big hurt on the herd.  That and the number of late tags that are issued has not really let the area recover for a trophy quality herd.  It's too open and has too many roads to allow unlimited hunting at that time of year. 

There is also a big issue with shed hunting that a lot of people probably don't realize.  Go hike into Crum or Steliko this time of year and check out how hammered the area is by shed hunters on snowmobiles.  These guys are in there from December untill the snow melts covering every square inch they can ride looking for sheds.  Pretty much on a daily basis too.  I think that has affected the herd and maybe changed it forever.  The deer are only going to take it for so long before they change their patterns on where they winter when they have that kind of pressure.

I talked to the area biologist a couple years ago about the shed hunting and he thought that it was becoming a major factor in winter survival.

The game dept can't close the land as it is USFS land and they need pressure from both the WDFW and citizens.

-Lowedog

[WAmuleyHunter]

agree with everyone, you are exactly right Lowedog.  its ridiculous and sad as to what they have done.  They knew what they were doing, and know what they are doing now. And we all know they arent goign to change it until there is a large die off. They dont have the you know whats to make a change now.

[Dman]

  Lowedog, with the new Federal Executive order created only a few months ago preserving hunting, you might be able to write the USFS to deal effectively with that situation given it is occurring on USFS land's. Might be worth a try.

[WDFW-SUX]

Entiat Mule Deer management =

Every year I go back to go hunting it gets worse...... whats that tell you?

I don't think I even want to waste my deer points on it at this point either   If a guy with the governors tag can hunt for 30 days and see 1 180 buck I'm not interested.

[coonhound]

I will definitely second your thoughts on a reduction of tags.  I drew one of the coveted late archery tags last year.  I hunted my butt off, I probably put over 100 miles on my boots and hours behind the glasses.  I seen litterally 100's of bucks and only one that would have made the 180 mark and he had broke off one fork.  It seemed like 20 - 22" 3's and 4's were a dime a dozen. 

I had been hunting the Okanogan country prior to the Entiat tag and I had seen far more quality bucks up there, the #'s of deer were definitely fewer but the quality was better.

Maybe we need to send a link to this post to the WDFW...

Coon

[dbllunger]

What everyone else said.  The USFS would close several of the key in a heart beat if WDFW asked.  They just will not ask.  There is not effective game management in Wa., and it has very little to do with the lower level people.  The problem is mid-level and up.  The WDFW is not managing the wildlife in our best interest.  My only suggestion is to keep after them and show up at the meetings.  Maybe the RMEF and MDF chapters can start putting some statewide organized pressure on the WDFW.  Lowedog nailed it though because there are a majority of hunters who are unwilling to give up an area for a quality hunt.  I have watched a lot of those decent 18-20's that should be good bucks the next year never appear.  Just more and more 18-20's the last few years.  The number of bucks that I consider shooters has steadily declined, and I believe it is due to the late hunting pressure both rifle and archery.  They will do the same with the Swakane if they don't shorten the late seasons.

[huntnphool]

"The game dept can't close the land as it is USFS land and they need pressure from both the WDFW and citizens."

Maybe not but they could close it to motorized vehicles

[boneaddict]

Not going to argue anything said so far......but.....I wish someone would listen to me about the huge kill 3 years ago on that late general season hunt.  Everyon was so damn excited about it and tons and tons of nice bucks bit the dust.  The Methow was wiped out.  I ahve no idea about the Entiat, but suspect it was the same.  There were VERY few bucks left that were older than 2 years old.   WELL, we are now at the point where those bucks would be in their prime.  There are VERY few left to be in their prime.  throw in everything mentioned above and there is not going to be any in their prime due to the hnting pressure.  Toss in the lack of predator control and what do you have.  It doesn't take a rocket scienctist to figure out what over hunting, too much access,tribal hunting (not necessarily a problem in the Entiat) and too many save the predator folks, will do to a thriving herd anywhere.  Toss in wlakie talkies, cell phones, satellite, internet, range finders, long range rifles, snowmobiles, 4 wheelers and every other little trinket we have, does a deer have a chance?

[WDFW-SUX]

It was pretty awesome when the brain trust at the game department let the season run through the end of October..............

I personally put my hands on 3 bucks that were 175+ out of the methow that year and saw one deer in the hoof that is still the biggest Washington deer that I have seen to date.

[MuleySniper]

It boils down to too many people living in Washington. The game department is part blame too with their lack of management, but they can only do so much due to the overpopulation of hunters here. As many of us, we are Washington natives, and I dont say that with any bad intention to people who have moved here and enjoy the sport over the last ten years. I say ten years because I along with many others will notice that even that long ago the population here was obviously less. Then the argument starts what it was like forty or fifty years ago. The list can go on. In the end, the obvious reason resurfaces, too many people, not enough space. I would actually like to see this state manage as well as Nevada. I wouldnt have any problem if residents had to draw a big game license each year  If that is what it would take to make this state a better big game area, I would be all for it. Personally, I would rather have a shot at a nice buck or bull every 3 or 4 years, then struggle with finding a legal buck every year and dealing with all the idiots in the field.
MS

[huntnphool]

So heres a question for you, I remember hunting 15 years ago, the season went through the end of Oct. and according to the state, there were more licenses sold. We always hunted the last 4-5 days of the season, generally into the first part of Nov. We hunted the same areas I hunted as a lad 30 years ago with my dad, and still hunt today. We would seldom see other hunters and when we did it was generally the same people every season. So why is it now, with arguably less hunters, that I cant walk across a ridge, or around a draw and not see four other guys within 500 yards of each other. Just my $.02 but now that the season has been shortened to 8 days it forces all the hunters, that were once spread out over time, into the same areas at the same time. The legal deer that are anywhere but the highest, most remote areas of the state, dont stand a chance. To many people out at the same time for them to find anywhere to go without being seen. Now I know this doesnt have much to do with the trophy bucks but if there are any older smart bucks that have come down by then, it doesnt matter how smart or wiley they may be, there is nowhere they can go and escape unless its private property and unfortunatly they dont know the difference, regardless what some of you may think

[SuperDave]

I agree with everyone!  I was gonna start a post on the subject as well.  Pretty sad when you can hunt the month of December and not see a 180 class buck.  Like was mentioned in an earlier post,  all of 300's entries should be read by the hunter education courses!  I think the local biologists should be reading them!  When they increased the tag allotments, it ruined that unit.  A decrease in tag numbers would be a great start.   

[ICEMAN]

Not going to argue anything said so far......but.....I wish someone would listen to me about the huge kill 3 years ago on that late general season hunt.  Everyon was so damn excited about it and tons and tons of nice bucks bit the dust.  The Methow was wiped out.  I ahve no idea about the Entiat, but suspect it was the same.  There were VERY few bucks left that were older than 2 years old.   WELL, we are now at the point where those bucks would be in their prime.  There are VERY few left to be in their prime.  throw in everything mentioned above and there is not going to be any in their prime due to the hnting pressure.  Toss in the lack of predator control and what do you have.  It doesn't take a rocket scienctist to figure out what over hunting, too much access,tribal hunting (not necessarily a problem in the Entiat) and too many save the predator folks, will do to a thriving herd anywhere.  Toss in wlakie talkies, cell phones, satellite, internet, range finders, long range rifles, snowmobiles, 4 wheelers and every other little trinket we have, does a deer have a chance?

Agreed. We have hunted the Entiat for 25 years, and after the tyee burn, no place for deer to hide during the hunt. This area really changed with the depleted timber zones. Snow is covering areas previously covered with timber, wide open, bucks can be seen from miles away in many places.