8 different special apps pools!

[shanevg]

Well I can't make it, but if anyone has the desire, I would sure appreciate it if someone would either read or comment on the gist of the below letter:

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

After the proposed rule change in 2009, I quickly emailed different members of the Washington Department of Fish and Game the following inquiry:

"After reading through the new 2009 hunting regulations I have a number of questions and clarifications regarding the new mountain goat rules.  It says in the regulations that the director can close certain sub populations.  Does this mean that sub populations can be closed mid-season, or does this mean that from season to season, the areas will change?  If someone gets drawn for a given unit, will they be guaranteed to be able to hunt every area listed in the brief area description in the regulations?"


Although the response I received from Donny Martorello was not exactly what I had hoped to hear, it did make one thing clear to me: that mountain goat applicants would be able to hunt the units they applied for and that any changes in hunting units would take place after the season was over.  The following is the response email from Donny Martorello:

"Mr. VG:

Thank you for your letter to the Fish and Wildlife Commission regarding mountain goat regulation changes.  The Commission has asked that I respond to your questions directly.

Our intention for the rule changes is to make mountain goat regulations more dynamic and flexible in order to adjust hunting seasons in a timely manner if populations are over-harvested.  That being said, our intent is not to change permit levels or hunt boundaries once these are published in the annual hunting pamphlet.  We want flexibility between seasons rather than within an existing season.

In regard to the hunt unit boundary, currently we are drafting the new hunt area boundaries for Mt. Baker and anticipate these to be out and available to the public this month.  If you have specific questions about Mt. Baker, please do not hesitate in contacting our District Biologist, Mike Davison, at (360) 466-4345, ext 280.

Thank you again for taking the time to ask the Department to further clarify the new rule changes.

Sincerely,

Donny Martorello
Carnivore, Furbearer, and Special Species Section Manager"


I have emphasized the specific area of the email in question.  I personally knew both applicants of the Mt. Baker West mountain goat tag in 2009.  I hunted with both applicants and scouted multiple days with both of them before season.  Not only were they not given their hunt boundaries until the beginning of August, but WDFW decided it would be best to split the unit up into 2 units - the Chowder Ridge and Lincoln Creek units, but they randomly drew the two hunters and limited them to each specific unit.  That was very frustrating for all parties involved as both hunters had been scouting both units the entire summer!  Additionally, the hunt that the applied for - the Mt. Baker West hunt was listed in the regulations with the following: "Subpopulations Open to Hunting: Chowder Ridge, Black Buttes."  In the end, both hunters got to hunt the unit they preferred to hunt, so they did not complain too much, but that would not be the case with each and every hunter.

My father has hunted the Coleman Pinnacle subunit in the Mt. Baker East unit multiple times in the past.  He applied points only for the 8 or so years that the Mt. Baker herds were closed in hopes of being able to hunt that unit again if it was ever opened.  Since WDFW re-opened the Mt. Baker goat herds to hunting again, the Coleman Pinnacle unit is the only unit he has ever applied for.  He wants to hunt the unit he grew up hunting and the unit he knows where the goats are.  If he gets drawn for the Mt. Baker East unit, under the current management strategy, WDFW would have a "mini-drawing" to decide which sub-unit he wants to hunt.  Living in Lynden, we are only an hour drive from the trailhead for the Coleman Pinnacle subpopulation.  ON the other hand, reaching the Dillard Creek unit takes a minimum of 2.5 hours to reach because we have to drive around the entire mountain to get there.  Additionally, my father and I observe mountain goats whenever we possibly can, we want to hunt the units we know like Coleman Pinnacle, not the units we have never been too like Dillard Creek.  Also, although the Lake Ann unit does have some good mountain goats, they tend to migrate in and out of the National Park due to pressure and they are in a unit that we do not know as well as the Coleman Pinnacle unit.

Ultimately, the entire purpose of special hunt applications is giving the hunter the option to draw the unit that he/she wants to hunt.  Unfortunately, your current system for distributing mountain goat tags does not give hunters the choice anymore.  I understand the desire to leave units flexible to adjust to hunting pressure, but that is still possible if hunters get to choose what subpopulation they want to hunt.  One year you can have all five subpopulations open.  If the herd is not responding well to hunting, then you can temporarily close a subpopulation and add a second tag to a separate subpopulation.  If the problem is that you can't know how herds are doing until after the pamphlets are printed, then do what some other states do and state that these are preliminary tag distribution numbers, if a unit can't support hunting that year, just don't draw for that unit.

This option would provide the best opportunity for everyone all around. Not only would hunters get to choose the specific subpopulations that they want to hunt, but it would spread out the mountain goat hunters into more hunt options creating better draw odds.

Please consider the needs of the average hunter.  Hunters want to choose where they get to hunt, based on the areas they know.  I spend many days each and every summer photographing mountain goats in the Mt. Baker herds and if I ever get lucky enough to draw a tag, I want to be hunting a unit that I am familiar with, not a unit I have never stepped foot in.  Under your current tag distribution system, that cannot be guaranteed.  If you adopt the more fair system that I have suggested, not only would you be staying true to your original intentions as stated in the above email, but you would allow hunters the choice that they desire and that your current draw system was designed to provide.

Thank you.

Concerned hunter and wildlife enthusiast,


Shane VG

[Atroxus]

I am curious what this means for new hunters like me. Personally I am hoping to start hunting this year just for meat, I am not really interested in trophies. If I am reading this right though it seems that any new hunters like me will not have a snowballs chance in hell of getting drawn for any tags even if we applied for all of them.

[bobcat]

It depends on how many of the people with lots of points decide to take advantage of the new changes, and apply for the antlerless permits. My guess is that many of them will still not be interested in hunting for antlerless animals. Either way you still have a chance especially if you don't apply for only the most popular hunts. Look at the application numbers from 2009 to determine which hunts will be easier to draw. This is all posted on the WDFW website (www.wdfw.wa.gov)

[billythekidrock]

It depends on how many of the people with lots of points decide to take advantage of the new changes, and apply for the antlerless permits. My guess is that many of them will still not be interested in hunting for antlerless animals. Either way you still have a chance especially if you don't apply for only the most popular hunts. Look at the application numbers from 2009 to determine which hunts will be easier to draw. This is all posted on the WDFW website (www.wdfw.wa.gov)

I think most of those guys with lots of points will take advantage of the new changes, regardless of how they have applied in the past.

I have spoken with a couple guys that have or are near max points for elk that have always only applied for some of the better bull units. They have all said that they will probably start applying for antlerless "since they have the points now". One said he would probably start applying partnership with his wife (who has less points) for antlerless permits.

My manager has somewhere in the neighborhood of 21 or 22 points for elk. He has always applied partnership for one bull unit. He is now hoping to apply for antlerless units  in partnership with his son.

[huntnphool]

I think most of those guys with lots of points will take advantage of the new changes, regardless of how they have applied in the past.

 

[SkookumHntr]

I am curious what this means for new hunters like me. Personally I am hoping to start hunting this year just for meat, I am not really interested in trophies. If I am reading this right though it seems that any new hunters like me will not have a snowballs chance in hell of getting drawn for any tags even if we applied for all of them.

-If this system goes through, new hunters, or guys with low pt totals my never draw anything ever! maybe a cow tag in about 20 years!

[Bob33]

I cannot see any possible way in which this will not make drawing an antlerless tag harder for those at the lower end of the points list.  Take an example: Bethel C, hunt 2123, antlerless cow.  In 2008 there were 1713 applicant choices, and 50 permits in 2009.  Under the new system, some of these 1713 applicant choices will go elsewhere, but I would assume that most would not.  Individuals apply for that tag because they want to hunt there.  Note there is another Bethel hunt: Bethel A. This is for "any bull".  There were 38 permits and 1989 applicant choices in 2008. There is yet another Bethel hunt: Bethel B: any bull, 1 tag, new in 2009.

Is it not reasonable to assume that many of the hunters that have been applying for the "any bull" tags will now put in for the Bethel C tag as well?  The odds for drawing the antlerless C tag will be lower overall, because there will be more applicants.  Sure, the applicant that has been putting in for the "any bull" tags has had no chance of drawing an antlerless tag previously (unless he risked his points on it), and now he will.  But that comes at the expense of those whose primary objective is to draw the antlerless tag.

Everyone will still have a chance.  Washington is a bonus point state, unlike preference point states such as Colorado.  In those states, tags go exclusively to those with the most points.  You can draw in Washington with 1 point, but the odds are low.  Bonus points in Washington are squared.  Someone with 10 points get 100 names in the hat.  Someone with one point gets 1 name in the hat.  Can he get drawn?  Sure, but the odds are against it.

What it boils down to is that everyone's preferred tag will be harder to draw: the quality hunt tags will be harder to draw because some of the antlerless hunters will go into those pools.  The antlerless tags will be harder to draw because some of the quality hunters will go into those pools.

The thing that boils me even more is the process: WDFW has already contracted with Outdoor Central to make the changes.  They spent our precious money before they even gathered public input.

[bobcat]

Right. But they will say they DID gather public input, with the survey they did last year. Really the only objective they are going to accomplish with these changes, is increased revenue to the WDFW. And that is THEIR objective, not ours!

[Curly]

I am curious what this means for new hunters like me. Personally I am hoping to start hunting this year just for meat, I am not really interested in trophies. If I am reading this right though it seems that any new hunters like me will not have a snowballs chance in hell of getting drawn for any tags even if we applied for all of them.

-If this system goes through, new hunters, or guys with low pt totals my never draw anything ever! maybe a cow tag in about 20 years!

That is why I'm considering not applying at all anymore (except for a moose permit), because I have little to no points now.

The thing that boils me even more is the process: WDFW has already contracted with Outdoor Central to make the changes.  They spent our precious money before they even gathered public input.

I think they've been working on the new system since right after the draw last year........so why couldn't they have set up an option by now with OC to let the applicant choose what category the points should go?  I don't think they should have even considered for more than a few minutes what they propose to do with distributing points in all pools.

Public input now is likely too late to try to change anything, unless they just scrap the whole idea and go back to what it was before........but that likely won't happen since they've already spent tons of money going this direction.

[bobcat]

I think people still need to let the WDFW know their opinion of this proposal. It may be too late, but maybe not. They have taken into account the public's strong objections to new proposals in the past, and changed them at the last minute. It seems to me that what they should do is to keep the draw exactly the same for this year, and put the new changes into affect in 2011. BUT, with the only change really being necessary, is to allow people to choose which category into which they want their deer and elk points to go. If they could do that, I would support the changes.

We still have time to get our comments in. Here is how to do so:

Hearing location(s):
Natural Resources Building, Room 172
1111 Washington Street SE
Olympia, Washington 98501
(360) 902-2515
Date: March 12-13, 2010 Time: 8:00 am


Submit written comments to:
Name: Wildlife Program Commission Meeting Public Comments
Address: 600 Capitol Way North, Olympia WA 98501-1091
e-mail Wildthing@dfw.wa.gov
fax (360) 902-2162
By: Wednesday, February 24, 2010

[Ridgerunner]

what about if they did a draw in order and you could only draw one permit each year per species, so the quality draw would be first, then the bucks, then the antlerless.  I think that might work better.

I know I'm not going to be putting in for any antlerless tags.  I'll stick with the bucks and bulls.

[Curly]

I will write another letter and mail it in this time.  I think it may be better than sending an email. 

[bobcat]

what about if they did a draw in order and you could only draw one permit each year per species, so the quality draw would be first, then the bucks, then the antlerless.  I think that might work better.

I know I'm not going to be putting in for any antlerless tags.  I'll stick with the bucks and bulls.

I agree, they should do it somehow so that a person cannot draw more than one permit per species. Doing it in order as you suggested would be a great way to do so. For them to modify their proposal like this, I do not think they'd be able to get it going in time for this year's draw. So if they could just hold off until next year they would have time to work with Outdoor Central to get the changes done in a way that would be more fair to everybody. But, of course they won't want to do that as I am sure they are already counting on the additional revenue.

I still do not think it is fair to put one's points in all the sub-categories. They should only go into one. Although it will work out well for my dad and my uncle if they keep it as is.

[Bob33]

Right. But they will say they DID gather public input, with the survey they did last year. Really the only objective they are going to accomplish with these changes, is increased revenue to the WDFW. And that is THEIR objective, not ours!

Did anyone know about this last year?

[bobcat]

Right. But they will say they DID gather public input, with the survey they did last year. Really the only objective they are going to accomplish with these changes, is increased revenue to the WDFW. And that is THEIR objective, not ours!

Did anyone know about this last year?

Yes, we knew there were going to be some changes to the system, supposedly to increase a person's chance of drawing a permit. But they never told us what those changes would be. I think we all assumed they would just decrease the number of choices from 4, to 1 or 2.