If the East Side Went to Permit Only!!!

[bearpaw]

To grow trophy bulls they need to get 6+ years old.

If you made half the units draw only (no spikes), and half the units over-the-counter, would that not provide everyone opportunity and provide trophy bull opportunity when you get lucky and draw?   

[bobcat]

Seems to me that could put too much pressure on the OTC units, unless they implemented a quota on tag sales for each GMU. But then if they are going to do that they may as well have all units permit only.

[bearpaw]

Well right now its OTC for most all NE WA....

[BLKBEARKLR]

I pay to hunt, not take a chance that I will be drawn to hunt.

[bobcat]

Yes and NE might possibly be the exception and wouldn't need to be on a draw. But there would somehow have to be a requirement that if you apply for a draw only unit and don't draw, you can't hunt the OTC units.

[Joeman3285]

The unique problem this state has vs. say Colorado or Oregon (both states with fairly large human populations like us) is a relatively low elk population (approx 50,000 vs 250,000 and 150,000) and general seasons across almost all GMU's. If something doesn't change the human and elk populations will continue to diverge. WDFW needs to step up.

So are you saying the WDFW should call open season on yuppies?  That will curb the diversion of elk and human populations.  haha sorry... couldn't resist

[carpsniperg2]

i am so ticked at oregon this year about the new changes i don't even want to think of washington permit only

[huntnphool]

i am so ticked at Oregon this year about the new changes i don't even want to think of washington permit only

What? Oregon is the ideologue that Bobcat bases his entire bases on, surely with such a perfect system they have you can't possibly be upset!

[high country]

the problem I see with lowering the number of otc areas is the concentration of hunters will go up. no matter what there are people who like to hunt and they will, so if there is an otc area they will go there. if there are 50 to choose from some will go to the most remote, some the colsest and some to there favorites in between........but if there were fewer, well it looks like a wipeout for that area. the hunter density in the popular areas is already scary. I think increasing hunter density is a bad bad plan, seen tempers flare in the yak, and that was an area that was not too crowded.

[bobcat]

The only changes Oregon has made is to raise the non-resident fees to match or exceed the prices in states with far better hunting. Their limited permits system is still way better management than what we have in this state. At least it gives the Fish & Wildlife Dept a way to control hunter numbers per unit. It's not a good state for non-residents, especially now with the high cost, but even before that, with a cap of 2.5% to 5% of the tags going to non-residents, many of the hunts can be nearly impossible to ever draw. But for residents, I think it's a great system. Those who don't care about trophy potential can apply for units with high numbers of tags and those who are willing to wait for a less crowded hunt can wait 4 to 6 years or so and draw the better hunts. And everybody has the option of hunting mule deer and/or elk with a bow, every year, while waiting for that rifle tag.

[Sawbuck]

Wow well said Sneaky.

One reason I get upset is because Despite the fact that in the Colockum in the past 6 years 70% of the branch bulls have been killed off and every year 75-85% of yearling bulls are killed.  This is a herd that has been completely decimated.  Yet when someone mentions that it needs to be permit only to rebuild it and figure out a better way for it to be managed.  Most people   and complain about THEIR hunting rights and how it will ruin their season etc.  HOW SELFISH!!!!! That's what angers me.  What numbers will it take for people to wake up and not be so selfish???  80%, 90%?  I get mad because people are so selfish and only care about themselves.  What happened to making sure and striving towards giving our kids better hunting than we have?  Instead people care more about the chance to sit around and drink whiskey than the animals they hunt.  

I posted this to get ideas flowing and a good topic for debate and discussion.  So even if I don't agree with you I want to say thank you everyone who has contributed.  This is how things start to change for the better.  

I don't think it is right for you to imply that just because somebody doesn't think permit only is the way to go that they are a selfish whiskey drinking elk hunter that doesn't care about the elk or the future of elk hunting. I am a third generation washington elk hunter and I hope the privilege of being able to harvest an elk is there for my kids and grandkids. Our camp is a group of family and friends that loves to hunt, we don't sit around and drink whiskey.
Your numbers might be spot on, but that's all they are are numbers. Speculation of what the numbers will be if permit only was implemented is just that, a speculation. We are free to submit our opinions and research to the WDFW, but at the end of the day it is their responsibility to manage our elk herds. I agree that some changes need to be made, but I don't think that something as drastic as permit only is the answer. This thread took the idea of permit only from the Colockum, to Yakimia, to the whole eastside, and I even read a post that said the whole state. Where does it stop, and what is the true end goal? What is this "improved hunting" that guys keep talking about? Does the permit only crowd think that this will allow them have the woods to themselves with there pick of any 300 class bull they want? The hard truth is that this state with all of its issues, such as human population, hunters, predators, and road access to elk habitat, will never be able support an elk population that would allow for the hunting opportunities that we see in other states. If good elk conservation is a larger population for greater opportunities to hunt them lets take steps in that direction by reducing cow permits and shutting down some more of the roads to motorized vehicles. Oh wait, that has already been done, and the WDFW continues to adjust permit numbers as they need to. I'm not saying that they are doing a perfect job, or that it is a perfect permit system, but its not a bad system. I remember going to the feed stations as a kid and it was a big deal to see a six point, now I take my kids and there are a number of branch antlered bulls. The same goes for hunting. When I started elk hunting it was nice to see a handfull of elk the whole season, since the permit system was implemented the numbers have gone up, and I see elk almost every time I go out. True, I can't shoot the big bulls I see, I've only been drawn for my area once, but I get to see them and most years I get my spike. The hunting opportunities are here now, and with proper management can continue to be here for years to come. If you want fewer hunters and more elk ("improved hunting") hunt further back, or go out of state. Don't try to push an unproven idea of permit only on all elk hunters.

[bobcat]

I imagine these are the exact same types of discussions that would have one on decades ago when the state first started requiring a hunting license and deer/elk tags for hunting. Before that there was no season and no license or tag required, and no limit to how many a person could kill. People don't like change but eventually the state will be forced to make drastic changes. Just like they did when deer and elk became protected species, and the same for bears and cougars, which wasn't even that far back.

[fishm@n]

The unique problem this state has vs. say Colorado or Oregon (both states with fairly large human populations like us) is a relatively low elk population (approx 50,000 vs 250,000 and 150,000) and general seasons across almost all GMU's. If something doesn't change the human and elk populations will continue to diverge. WDFW needs to step up.

So are you saying the WDFW should call open season on yuppies?  That will curb the diversion of elk and human populations.  haha sorry... couldn't resist

I like that idea.. Open season only in Seattle and Bellevue. 10 WDFW bonus points for anybody with a PETA bumper sticker!

[funkster]

 This thread took the idea of permit only from the Colockum, to Yakimia, to the whole eastside, and I even read a post that said the whole state. Where does it stop, and what is the true end goal? What is this "improved hunting" that guys keep talking about? [/quote]


You cannot only make east/westside permit only! In my opinion you have to go all or nothing. If you made one side permit it would flood the other side with hunters. This would particularly hurt westside hunting because most of the land is owned by Private timber companies making relatively big units small. What I mean by that is hunters are con setrated usually in a 5 miles square around any locked gate.

The true end goal IMPO is to strengthen the herds through genetics. This happens when mature bulls pass the seed instead of young bulls. States that manage herds with draw only system are thriving in herd numbers and mature bull harvest rates. This continues with handing out the right number of cow tags to keep the bull to cow ratio correct. The improved hunting will ONLY come with a better draw system like in other states. Washington harvest for elk is right around 10%, well below a lot of other states.

[colockumelk]

Sawbuck I think you took my post out of context.  When I'm referring to people who don't want the Colockum to go permit only then yes they are SELFISH!!  If you have a 70% reduction in numbers and you think that that trend is going to change then that person is ignorant or naive.  If they don't care then they are selfish.  But if you still think a herd that has been decimated such as the colockum should still have a general season then let me ask YOU yourself a question.  At what point would you want some conservation to take place.  80, 90 or 95%??? 

When only .75-1 out of every 5 spikes live through the hunting season don't you think something should be done to stop this???  If not then YOU tell me what should be done in the Colockum or the yakima and Kittitas Mule Deer herd (which has taken an over 50% nose dive in the last six years)