If the East Side Went to Permit Only!!!

[bobcat]

In regards to highcountry's comment about less predators being killed if there are less elk hunters out, I think the opposite could be true. If I was not able to hunt elk one particular season, I would be more likely to spend my time focusing on bears, cougars, and coyotes. Just think if the state reduced elk hunters by half each year, and if even 10% of those that didn't hunt elk that year, instead went out and hunted predators...

[woodswalker]

i am not a trophy hunter but i would be all for making the eastside a draw i think it would improve the hunting for all of us

NO hunting is NOT improved hunting...its half a perfectly good reason to get away from work and such for a week or so...I am OK with not getting too many spikes...and saving my points until I know i will have time to really pursue a big bull

[Elkaholic daWg]

i am not a trophy hunter but i would be all for making the eastside a draw i think it would improve the hunting for all of us

NO hunting is NOT improved hunting...its half a perfectly good reason to get away from work and such for a week or so...I am OK with not getting too many spikes...and saving my points until I know i will have time to really pursue a big bull

 I agree!!!!!

[Sneaky]

In regards to highcountry's comment about less predators being killed if there are less elk hunters out, I think the opposite could be true. If I was not able to hunt elk one particular season, I would be more likely to spend my time focusing on bears, cougars, and coyotes. Just think if the state reduced elk hunters by half each year, and if even 10% of those that didn't hunt elk that year, instead went out and hunted predators...

I think one of the major problems we face as hunters in this state is that some hunters are more concerned with harvesting a resource than being a steward of that resource. I feel as hunters it is our responsibility to also act as conservationists. In doing so, we should not solely focus on harvesting an animal, but also on making provisions to ensure that there is wildlife available for future generations. For example, feel there is a need for less regulation on predator hunting, as well as more participation among hunters in the "off-season" as well as during the season. I feel if we were able to hunt bears over bait and hunt cougars with hounds, participation would go up, and more predators could be harvested. I also feel that by using bait and hounds, hunters can make better judgment as to which animals to harvest and which to let pass (sows, cougars with kittens, etc.). I feel it is our responsibility as hunters to make an effort to conserve through predator reduction. Deer and Elk are already limited by the encroachment of society, and they could benefit from a reduction of predation stress.

In addition to predator management, I feel we could improve by making an attempt at lessening the amount of pollution left in the areas that we utilize for hunting and fishing. I know that most of the time it isn't hunters that dump junk cars, trash, and scraps in national forest and open logging land, but I feel the only solution to the issue is be the bigger person and maybe pick up some beer bottles on the way out of the woods and throw them away when we get home. If everyone picked up just a little bit, we would not only be improving the habitat for the animals, but for ourselves and future hunters. Yes, I know I'm probably dreaming but the fact is that arguing about policy doesn't change anything. Being active, civil, and acting as a steward of the land is the only way to improve our resources.

Being a rifle hunter, I have hunted elk in the Colockum and Yakima areas exactly once each due to some of the appalling "hunting" practices I observed. I am aware that it is only a small percentage that conduct themselves in this manner, but they just plain ruined the experience for me. Where have the ethics gone? Yes, we all know the game laws make it tough to harvest an animal in Washington, but to me, that's part of the trophy. At the end of the day, If harvest an animal the right way, having followed the rules and not cut any legal corners, that makes the dink whitetail I shot in '08 that much nicer. It definitely made the tag soup I ate after 45+ days in the woods this year taste better.

Permit only elk hunting in the 300 series GMU's could be a piece of the management puzzle, but I feel in the end, hunters in this state need to start acting as stewards of the land again before any real change can be realized.

[colockumelk]

Wow well said Sneaky.

One reason I get upset is because Despite the fact that in the Colockum in the past 6 years 70% of the branch bulls have been killed off and every year 75-85% of yearling bulls are killed.  This is a herd that has been completely decimated.  Yet when someone mentions that it needs to be permit only to rebuild it and figure out a better way for it to be managed.  Most people    and complain about THEIR hunting rights and how it will ruin their season etc.  HOW SELFISH!!!!! That's what angers me.  What numbers will it take for people to wake up and not be so selfish???  80%, 90%?  I get mad because people are so selfish and only care about themselves.  What happened to making sure and striving towards giving our kids better hunting than we have?  Instead people care more about the chance to sit around and drink whiskey than the animals they hunt. 

I posted this to get ideas flowing and a good topic for debate and discussion.  So even if I don't agree with you I want to say thank you everyone who has contributed.  This is how things start to change for the better. 

[hughjorgan]

Hugh I got 4.5% because thats what the average success rate on eastside archery is on average.  Since the discussion is the east side why the hell would I include stats for the west side??

 [/color]

So, did you do some calculations yourself to get 4.5% or did you find this number on WDFW website? All the numbers I have come across incorporate all of archery success for elk in the general season and it is much higher than what you state.

[hughjorgan]

 

I agree with what NW_Hunter said. I am fine hunting spikes and cows until I draw a big bull tag every 3-5 years. Another thing, so you are against them having a general season in the Little Naches. Don't you think it is kind of contradicting yourself by doubling the tags for Peaches Ridge, most guys are going to hunt the Little Naches over the Taneum, thus creating more "crowds" as you put in your letter in that specific GMU.

 

This doesn't even deserve a response.  If you can't see that a general season in the Little Naches would have far more people in it that my "proposed permit only system" then you havn't done your research properly.  

There is a possibility that more people would hunt a general season in the little naches though that means there is going to be less people in other area GMU's, but doubling the permits under your proposed scheme would increase the so called crowds as well. Personally, I think a lot of people are going over board on the whole proposal for the switch. I average seeing one other person while hunting the early season every year. It isn't going to ruin that hunt and I bet the same people that are crying about it are still going to be putting in for that tag every year and people will still be successful and get big bulls in there even if there is a general season.

[colockumelk]

OOps my mistake the real avg is 4.78%.  And that is the success rate for bow hunters on antlerless elk.  Which is what my reference was.  That is BTW a four year average of all the GMU's put together.  My sources are listed at the bottom of the article I posted.  What are your references?  Do YOU have any??  If so then post them.  Post your research that you've done.  What are your numbers? 

 

[hughjorgan]

Okay, just wanted to know how you got the numbers... WDFW doesn't break it down into harvest percentage for eastside gmu's and such, but if you are interested you can scroll through the game status and trend reports and under elk they have the info or you can look at this link which shows the same numbers from harvest reporting. http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2008/elk_general.html

Colockum, so what do you propose would happen to late season for archery elk, is this hunt to just be eliminated or would you propose permits during this period of time also. And if the eastside went to permit only, how would this be good for recruiting new people into hunting being that you would take hunters ed then not be able to hunt. How would you get people interested in the sport, it seems it would be a lot harder to get people involved with a system like you propose.

[Deep Forks]

» Quote Modify Remove 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Bobcat, colockumelk, hhpro, muleyguy, you are on the right track, but problem with lower numbers is also happening in Chelan Co. as well.  I don't need to have a deer or elk tag in my hand every year, I can still hunt, just not with a gun.  My son, friends, and relatives all agree one of us would be lucky enough to receive a tag and then the hunt is on, we'll be in the mountains, glassing, spotting, observing and eating great camp food, just not pulling the trigger on deer or elk.  I can live with this to experience a hunt more like it was before the herds were cut in half.
  The mission unit which borders the colockum, has an area that us oldtimers visited every spring to check a portion of the mission herd.  This herd would gather every spring to calve, feed and spend there time in some meadows, aspen and timber every year since I remember (50 yr.).  When I was a kid it was common to see 300 head on any given evening, and as time past the herd would split and move off into different areas but their was always elk in and around the big meadow right up to winter.  When my son was young his grandpa would take him to see this herd, still at least 200 strong.  Well now I take my grandsons up there and this last year we hit the jackpot one evening, 27 elk, 3 years ago the most we seen was 18.  Our friends at WDFW are still allowing a month long cow season in this area, to control orchard damage, horse pelosi. 
20 years ago it wasn't uncommon to have a couple big bulls and half dozen spikes
shot opening weekend.  The past 5 years I know of 2 spikes taken out of this area.  So in my humble opinion something has to be done or my grandkids won't
get to experience a quality hunt in our state   

[LG]

i would be on board with the permit only 100%, i think it is the only solution for eastside elk hunting. as for the west side they could just go to a quota on permits like idaho does, so they dont overpopulate the woods. 

[sako223]

Draws may be ok for certain species in certain units that are in trouble herd number wise.

I am opposed to going with an all draw system because just like our current draw system you could end up going for years without a tag let alone success.

Odd/Even alternating system by the last number of your Wild ID looks better to me.

Example:

2010 Deer/Odd   Elk/Even

2011 Deer/Even   Elk/Odd

This is only for General season. This would cut the number of hunters in half but everyone would still get to hunt each year for something to keep traditions and interest. We could still have the current draw system so no one would lose points, and those harvest numbers could be adjusted like they are this year to nearly half for cow elk.

Studies have shown that with a reduction in permit hunters there is an increase in predator hunting.

Changes in hunter numbers or shifting to another unit will affect success rates.
Many people don't know how to hunt anyway, they have just learned how to capitalize on pressure or cheating. With reduced hunter numbers in the field some guys will claim there is less game in the field but really just need to learn how to find them.

[colockumelk]

Hugh I've been a little snippy so sorry.  Here's where I got the stats.
What I did was I did one GMU at a time.  I looked at the antlerless success rate in the Archery season (included both early/late season) for the previous four years.  I then took the average %.  I did this with each GMU and made an average of each GMU.  That's how I came up with 4.78% Archery Antlerless success rate.
http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/index.html

http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/hunter/specperm/elk.htm

Sako I would be 100% for your idea.  If that worked then that would be great.  I still believe though that for some Mule Deer herds and the Colockum Elk herd permit only needs to be implemented ASAP.  With your plan you'd still have to wait forever to be able to hunt branch bulls.  As it is now it takes on average 6-8 years to draw a branch bull permit, and 2-4 years to draw a cow permit.  Now think about this, if under a permit only system you would get 3.41 times more branch permits this means you would get drawn 3.41 times more often.  So take 6-10 and divide by 3.41 and thats how often you'd get a branch bull permit.  So on top of that you get drawn every 2-4 years for cows.  I'd bet you a months pay you'd still get to hunt elk every other year under the permit only system.  And for archery guys that on average only takes 3-6 years to draw a permit.  You'd be hunting branch bull elk every other year.

[high country]

High Country I don't think very many people connect with predators while out hunting.  At least I've never seen a camp with a predator in it.

well 3 years running now we have killed a bear in our group of 3 guys. I personally have seen bears nearly every year during the season. seen 2 cougs during the elk season and boat loads of bobcats and song dogs..... but then again, I hunt the "real" east side.

I am not at all knocking your data, but as you know every action has several reactions. if you are into biology, you understand the long term reprocussions of a simple change.

I would be willing to go even/odd if they made us a mlti season state.

[funkster]

Draws may be ok for certain species in certain units that are in trouble herd number wise.

I am opposed to going with an all draw system because just like our current draw system you could end up going for years without a tag let alone success.

Odd/Even alternating system by the last number of your Wild ID looks better to me.

Example:

2010 Deer/Odd   Elk/Even

2011 Deer/Even   Elk/Odd

This is only for General season. This would cut the number of hunters in half but everyone would still get to hunt each year for something to keep traditions and interest. We could still have the current draw system so no one would lose points, and those harvest numbers could be adjusted like they are this year to nearly half for cow elk.

I like this idea 100%! Sounds like a win/win/win situation for the animals,hunter and WDFW!