Mt. Adams elk population

[mossback]

Does anybody know what has happened to the elk herds in Mt. Adams? I have been hunting elk there for the last six years and it seems that it keeps getting worse.

[ELKBURGER]

Ive heard the same thing. I dont normally hunt there but have friends that do. Last year they said was the worst. More and more hunters.... same as st. helens!

[Wazukie]

there are no Elk on Mt. Adams! the herd is on a decline.  the speculation from us local's, the cat population is on the rise.  There are Elk here but you need to know where they are.  I scout from August-till the end of Muzzy season.  We hunt bow, modern and muzzy (I have two teenage boys).  I hike in past gates at least 5-10 miles and we use horses to get them out. 

I know a lot of people came out here this year expecting to find the 3 herds that winter over in the refuge but found none.  I know of two of those herds that styed in the high country.  One we found during late muzzy, they were feeding and bedding down in 3-4 feet of snow.

There are still some here but not like there used to be.

[RUTNBULL1]

Yes predation is a major problem within the area, and will continue to be. But some of the other major reasons for the declining herd are pretty obvious. 1) A lot of poaching from all ethnic groups, 2) Two bad winters with extreme snow depths and a larger than reported winter kill, and 3) And probably one of the biggest, no clear cutting or harvesting in the National Forest anymore, which in return means less new forage/feed for the herds. That being said mother nature will take the herd to a manageable level that the forest can support. This has been brought to the attention of the local game biologist as well as every warden I have seen in the area for over ten plus years and they are just finally noticing, that is why there is no either sex elk hunting in this general area anymore for muzzy, modern firearm. All the local areas are three point or better for weapon users and archery is the only weapon that you can harvest a cow/ calf or three point or better bull starting this fall.

[Bigshooter]

I totally agree with mossbacks 3 reasons.

[bbarnes]

The number 4 reason but really the number 1 reason you'll find in your game regulations.Look at the units around the area,the amount of time to hunt there,and the alarming amount of hunters that hunt there.We call it combat hunting.The worst thing our fish and wildlife did there was, get rid of the manager of the conboy lake presserve.The person had grown that herd to a epic proportion,and managed them but the fish and game apparently wanted that area for geese.Its been on the decline ever since, not to mention the loggers have there own season over there.This is just another example of mismanage meant by the WDFW.

[RUTNBULL1]

The number 4 reason but really the number 1 reason you'll find in your game regulations.Look at the units around the area,the amount of time to hunt there,and the alarming amount of hunters that hunt there.We call it combat hunting.The worst thing our fish and wildlife did there was, get rid of the manager of the conboy lake presserve.The person had grown that herd to a epic proportion,and managed them but the fish and game apparently wanted that area for geese.Its been on the decline ever since, not to mention the loggers have there own season over there.This is just another example of mismanage meant by the WDFW.

Bbarnes, yes there are huge amounts of hunters strictly because of the either sex issue and some liberal season lengths, agree. But, the main reason for the season lengths and liberal seasons is because this area for over forty plus years has been designated as deer area/ deer wintering ground period. The elk were never intended to be introduced into this area, due to the fact of deer wintering ground and agricultural reasons ( IE: orchards, winter wheat harvesting, alfalfa etc. in the lower elevations). And the Conboy Refuge was never intended to be an Elk reserve either. Mr. Cole that previously had been in charge of the operations and management of the refuge took upon the protection of these nonnative elk to the refuge even crossing the lines of better judgement at times, but no need to go into that debate. Yes, it was great for the area's elk herd I agree, and wish the numbers would be at the levels they used to be even five years ago. And FURTHER MORE why do you have to THROW OUT that every LOGGER should be tagged as a poacher, this type of statement is totally uncalled for! That statement you suggest has no merit and could be your opinion, but some times opinions should be kept to yourself, total assumption with your statement. Yes there is poaching that goes on in the area, as stated before by all ethnic groups, and tell me a place in the state that doesn't have the poaching problem? Maybe the zoo! By the way the elk herd stated by the WDFW in this area  is considered the MT St. Helens herd, which in some since they are right , the herd in the general area was developed from the elk moving from the St. Helens area in the early eighties after Mt. ST. Helens had erupted, but after years of the herd growing within the area the WDFW needed to manage the elk herd in a total different fashion un like the way they have managed the area near St. Helens. This is a different area, just like other areas around the state. Each ELK area around the state needs to be managed per the local environment, quality of animals, quantity of animals per population objectives and so forth!

[Wazukie]

Im no biologist thats for sure so I speak only from my own observations.  I see plenty of habitat for the Elk population. Most of the forest land where I live is either private forest, DNR, or Reservation.  Plenty of clear cutts here.  I have a good friend who is a retired forester, been in this area for over 60 years and has hunted every Big game animal since.  His number 1 concern are the cats in the area.  Now I dont know much about the area up out of Trout Lake, I am strictly talking the East side of Unit 578.  I've talked to a few Biologists in the are, NON-WDFW, and they really dont even agree with the WDFW assesments.  Their take on the decline is do to predation.  Very few cats are taken in this area.

One thing that we really noticed in the last couple years is that the mojority of the herds in the area, are staying in the high country, 4000' plus, over the winter.  To bad it had to come to this but thats life I suppose.  The slaughter over the last few years hasnt helped either.

Just my 

[logger]

There is alot of elk around the valley here right now, but go out of troutlake a couple of miles you hit forest service ground hardly any clearcuts anymore. east 578 has like stated earlier mor ag, private timber and dnr ground that's managed, plus all of us loggers are eatin elk year round. Get the forest circus to manage our ground you will get the elk back and the elk will be in the hills where they belong instead of in town.

[RUTNBULL1]

I'm no biologist that's for sure so I speak only from my own observations.  I see plenty of habitat for the Elk population. Most of the forest land where I live is either private forest, DNR, or Reservation.  Plenty of clear cuts here.  I have a good friend who is a retired forester, been in this area for over 60 years and has hunted every Big game animal since.  His number 1 concern are the cats in the area.  Now I don't know much about the area up out of Trout Lake, I am strictly talking the East side of Unit 578.  I've talked to a few Biologists in the are, NON-WDFW, and they really don't even agree with the WDFW assessment's.  Their take on the decline is do to predation.  Very few cats are taken in this area.

One thing that we really noticed in the last couple years is that the majority of the herds in the area, are staying in the high country, 4000' plus, over the winter.  To bad it had to come to this but that's life I suppose.  The slaughter over the last few years hasn't helped either.


QUOTE: FROM MOSSBACK2
Yes, Unit 578 has all the logging operations in process at the current time. The Plateau as we shall call it from Snowden, to Klickitat, to Glenwood, to above Glenwood to the Reservation line by the Ditch, yes I know the area well! And I know most of the Foresters from the Past St. Regis to the Current Rainier Campbell group to the ones that have gone on to work for SDS Lumber Co. and Yes they agree cats are a problem, and a big issue, and logging in the Plateau are has produced alot of foraging ground for the animals, but with the herbicidal spray they have to put forth upon the newly harvested area to keep the undergrowth down for the newly planted tree to have a jump start, has reduced the new subtle growth for the animals to partake in. The AREA, that this thread was essentially intended to be about was the Trout Lake/MT. Adams area remember. That being said yes north of the Glenwood area could be included within this area, there is alot of logging operations still going on in the area, but if you spend much time up there notice that the majority of the natural grass that comes back after the logging is a form of Bear grass, and that is like razor blades to the deer and Elk tongue's. Wazukie I'm not disagreeing with you upon some of these issues and it has been known for quite some time that the elk and deer populations can thrive in the lower elevations together in the newly not so controlled logged areas. Together unlike what the stupid WDFW previously thought. That's why they are taking a different approach with the hunting regulations within the area, making the area three point or better and no either sex for modern or muzzy. They are understanding that these lower elevations are the new hot spot for new growth with forageing areas and possible elk herd population growth.  
Just my  

[elksnout]

I've noticed more clear cuts/selective cuts, etc in the northern end of 578 the last few years. There was a time when this acted as a magnet for deer and elk. But has anyone noticed how, even after a few years there still isn't much new growth ? I was speaking with a gamie last fall up there and he said it's because they {?} go back in and spray the area with herbicides to try and kill off or at least prolong the time until low cover forage starts to grow and compete with the tree seedlings. I know in the Washougal unit I've seen signs posted giving the dates of when they are going to spray an area. The same warden also told me that it's not too uncommon to see the herds get shot to hell when the get caught in the open beings all they have to be is an elk and they are legal game. He told me one year when there were heavy snows, he checked eleven elk within a mile and a half in the Oklahoma area. That's a lot of elk in the freezer. And cats...it just all adds up. I wouldn't think it's any one issue. But hey, what do I know ??

[Wazukie]

Moss, I do, for the most part,  agree with you and I hope you dont think Im not.  I spend most of my time North of Glenwood, but east of the Trout Lake grade.  I've spent little time on the Platue, although I do know the area as I have spent time in the woods with the Hancock guys.

Im not sure about the spray they use, which is a highly debated issue between the forester's and the hunting population.  I dont know much about that but I am familiar with both sides.

I will totally agree about the job that the NF does not do in taking care of OUR lands.  This is the reason THe Mt. and Glenwood about burned up.

I guess only time will tell if the WDFW's new managment plan will work.  I know one thing, there arent a lot of 3 point or better Bulls where I hunt.    But hunt I will,  guess I'll have to live off the bear instead of the Elk maybe.

[bbarnes]

Hey moss my intention wasn't to get you all stirred up,and be live me I'm also concerned about our natural recourse.Myself and other voiced our concerns at the WDFW commission meetings, about the either sex seasons there and other places in our state.Its very apparent to me the WDFW has no care, or clue on manageing any thing in this state.Lets just look at the problems if there to many cats,then why did they close the season during modern firearm?Also why the extra long hunting season, plus the master hunting season.All i can say is everything in moderation, if you over harvest the crop you also need time for it to grow.The WDFW is in panic mode with the revenue being cut, and the risk of loosing more of there precious full time employees,its only going to get worse.I'm a property owner in klickitat county and also have lots of back ground in the logging industry,and probably shouldn't group all loggers as one.My family and i has had more than our fair share of problems over the years with lots of user groups.I for one am glad your concerned, and urge you to get involved and ask questions and demand answers from the WDFW.BBarnes keeping public lands public

[logger]

I have not seen an abundance of 3 pt. and better bulls in the klick. this year, late muzzy season the elk were getting hammered pretty hard on king mt. I strongly believe we should turn the forest service over to the state and get those grounds producing again. They don't have to go back to thr large clearcuts as in the past, but atleast salvage log and in the proccess they can get thier roads back in shape.Maybe the wdfw should manage mosquitos everything else they manage dies off.

[Huntbear]

Maybe the wdfw should manage mosquitos everything else they manage dies off.

 

[elksnout]

Could it be possible that with all the cuts which have now morphed into thick reprod be part of the reason less elk are seen and taken ? At least in the national forest ? It's pretty much a timber hunt now on that land. Just saying..... 

[RUTNBULL1]

Hey moss my intention wasn't to get you all stirred up,and be live me I'm also concerned about our natural recourse.Myself and other voiced our concerns at the WDFW commission meetings, about the either sex seasons there and other places in our state.Its very apparent to me the WDFW has no care, or clue on manageing any thing in this state.Lets just look at the problems if there to many cats,then why did they close the season during modern firearm?Also why the extra long hunting season, plus the master hunting season.All i can say is everything in moderation, if you over harvest the crop you also need time for it to grow.The WDFW is in panic mode with the revenue being cut, and the risk of loosing more of there precious full time employees,its only going to get worse.I'm a property owner in klickitat county and also have lots of back ground in the logging industry,and probably shouldn't group all loggers as one.My family and i has had more than our fair share of problems over the years with lots of user groups.I for one am glad your concerned, and urge you to get involved and ask questions and demand answers from the WDFW.BBarnes keeping public lands public

Yes BBarnes, every email, letter, voiced opinion in person, etc. etc. etc. that I have put forth towards the WDFW and Game Commission has always fell on DEAF EARS. As has been posted thousands of times before upon thousands of threads throughout this forum, the WDFW and Commission Board has already decided upon all strategies and rules for the State's Management of the game and fish within this state, BEFORE OUR PUPLIC INPUT OR INQUIRY. Until we totally clean house and rid the current people in place and get new and fresh people that actually care about the wildlife and the opportunities that can be provided for the sportmen/ sportswomen in areason-able manner, basically we are screwed!
   AND LOGGER that is some funny s!!t right there on the MOSQUITO'S.

[Curly]

Until we totally clean house and rid the current people in place and get new and fresh people that actually care about the wildlife and the opportunities that can be provided for the sportmen/ sportswomen in areason-able manner, basically we are screwed!

True that.

[fishunt247]

this year, late muzzy season the elk were getting hammered pretty hard on king mt.

Could this be in reference to the insane amount of snowmobile/elk hunting rodeo that was going on in that area? All morning on opening day you would hear snowmobiles cruising, then I guess they saw elk because they would take off for a short while, shut off, and BOOM. Then they must have missed (who would guess you couldn't hit a running elk that's being chased by snowmobiles with an open sight muzzleloader) because they would start up again and tear off after them. Kinda ridiculous. Last spring, and this late fall, there seemed to be a lot of elk around. But I'm sort of an outsider on the elk managment issue down there, just wanted to comment on the ethics of the snowmobile thing.

[logger]

Elksnout, that is exactly what i'm saying with all that reprod=less feed, less elk.fishhunt, I did not see the snowmachines doing it, but I damn sure could hear em all the way up on top.

[bbarnes]

No your talking MOSS your thinking the way i do,the WDFW is a joke and LOGGER i don't think they could even keep our insects alive.Besides you would have to get out from behind the desk.In my 45 years of life the only time i have ever seen a biologists in the field,is when myself and Mark Smith put tours on at the Mount Saint Helens.We took politicians ,forest service,wdfw and enviormentalist up there to show them the major die offs and the reasons why.The WDFW wouldn't answer any questions, after that three ring circus.We need to cut there revenue and start busting there balls, and calling them on the carpet or our recreation and resource is finished.BBarnes keeping our public lands public.

[colockumelk]

Maybe the wdfw should manage mosquitos everything else they manage dies off.

 

Thats not true look how well the turkeys have done.  Oh wait that's right the WDFW doesn't do anything with the turkeys. That's probably why they have done so well.  Because the WDFW hasn't touched them. 

[RUTNBULL1]

Maybe the wdfw should manage mosquitos everything else they manage dies off.

 

Thats not true look how well the turkeys have done.  Oh wait that's right the WDFW doesn't do anything with the turkeys. That's probably why they have done so well.  Because the WDFW hasn't touched them. 

Damit Colockumelk, now you've done it, they get wind of your comment and screw the Turkey seasons up too!!

[haus]

Available summer range food supply and the quantity of elk that are being taken are the two primary factors. The increasing loss of high elevation/alpine elk habitat due to encroaching conifers is a well researched and documented player in the decreasing elk population for the area surrounding the Mt. Adams Wilderness and the Indian Heavens Wilderness. The rest of 560 near Mt. Adams is almost entirely GPNF where timber harvest has been minimal for over a decade. Much of the standing timber does not allow for the growth of nutritional plants and shrubs for the elk. The private timber lands that can be found at lower elevations outside of the 560 unit and GPNF fall within the borders of the West Klickitat and Wind River Units. Both have had ANY ELK MF GENERAL SEASONS for...well I don't honestly know how long.
Also, the amount of special permit cow elk tags that have been handed out for the 560 unit are disproportionate to the size of the herd.

Yes there are other factors that are of concern, like the cat population and the amount of poaching that is occurring. I don't believe the cats are taking enough elk to be a primary source of blame for the reduction in herd size, but with the herd as reduced as it is now any predation will play a larger factor. They do have plenty of deer to munch on and it is apparent that most of the cats follow the deer herd. By the time we get in there for MF elk season we rarely see any sign of cats or deer unless we go down lower into the West Klickitat unit. Most of the deer found in the 560 unit migrate out by late September. Actually this season was only the second time we saw cat tracks in the 560 unit during MF. It so happened to have followed me for most of a day. I found this out when I hunted the same general route the next day. No wonder I keep looking over my shoulder the day prior. haha.

Poaching on the other hand....... 

Anyway that's just my opinion, we've been hunting down there since '99 and we came into the area knowing full well the elk population was much smaller than where we hunted prior(coweeman), but the hunting pressure is also much less so we feel it is worth the trade off. I've had a hard time being successful, I've hunted very few full seasons with my family, but last season I did and finally bagged my first bull elk. Spent a lot of time prior to last season analyzing sat images and overlaying them with where we had seen elk, plus I spoke with the wdfw and a few hunters on this board. Ultimately what made the difference was slowing down my pace in the right area's, I finally understood how to identify an area that was holding elk versus an area that they were just temporarily using as a stop over point while the moved elsewhere.