wolf poll

[bearpaw]

Lowedog, it's docemented in Lewis and Clark's journals that they had a hard time finding game after leaving the buffalo on the plains. Some researchers have indicated that the shortage of game in the mountains (lolo) was likely due to high predator abundance (which includes wolves). OK, they didn't actually starve, pardon my poor choice of words, the following link does describe the food shortage. http://columbia.washingtonhistory.org/magazine/articles/2010/0210/0210-a2.aspx

The following story shows the impact of wolves today in the Lolo and explains how F&G is planning to lower the wolf population:  http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/boise/2010/aug/13/fish-game-plans-clearwater-wolf-kill/

I believe it is safe to assume there is a correlation that predators have had an impact on game in the mountains (especially wolves) because after the L&C expedition and after wolves were eradicated, the Lolo became one of Idaho's greatest Elk Zones, now after the introduction and increase of wolves, the Lolo is Idaho's most endangered elk herd. As pointed out in the proof I have provided, IDFG have documented that wolves are the primary limiting factor of the lolo elk herd.

You may think I am being unfair, but I am simply presenting the facts.

I have yet to see any facts from you which refute this data.

Yes, I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree, I have seen no proof to change my opinion that wolves do cause all the problems that myself, wolfbait, and others have presented to this forum with much supporting data.

[bearpaw]

http://graywolfnews.com/
There are roughly 250 to 300 news stories on this website from across the world, but mostly from the lower 48 states, showing the negative affects of wolves and illustrating the negative impacts wolves have had on modern society. Most of these impacts are a direct result and caused by the failure of game managers to properly manage wolves in human inhabited areas. In my opinion for anyone to continue to assert that wolves need to be allowed to multiply without proper management in highly inhabited areas is not a display of good reasoning, sensibility, or compassion.

How well do wolves fit into the southern 48 states today? Watch This....
Crying Wolf


one of the latest wolf attacks on liestock.....

Wolves in the Big Horns
kpomeroy posted on September 02, 2010 15:06
Wolves kill 24 sheep
http://basinrepublican-rustler.com/CurrentNews/tabid/941/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/3819/Wolves-in-the-Big-Horns.aspx

By NATHAN OSTER

For Keith Hamilton, it wasn’t a question of if wolves would make their presence felt in the Big Horns. It was a question of when.

“We knew that when they introduced wolves to Yellowstone that it was only going to be a matter of time before we started to suffer livestock losses,” said Hamilton, who has been grazing approximately 2,500 head of sheep in the Big Horn Mountains this summer.

In July, it finally happened.

The Hamilton Ranch, which has had permits to graze sheep in the Hyattville area since 1928, lost 24 head in what has since been confirmed by officials from multiple agencies as wolf kills. The 24 included one ewe and 23 lambs. All were killed in the same manner. None were eaten.

The killings are the first ones reported in the Big Horns this year, but follow closely on the heels of the 113 sheep that were killed by wolves on the south end of the mountain range in 2009. Three wolves were identified as the suspects in those killings, and each of them was lethally removed, according to Mike Jimenez, Wyoming Wolf Coordinator with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

After this year’s killings, the FWS asked the USDA Wildlife Services to remove the predators. To date, those efforts, which have included an aerial search and time spent on the ground, have been unsuccessful.

Hamilton said his sheep were moved into the area, which he described as 10 miles north of Burgess Junction, on July 11. The killing started the next day. Between July 12 and 13, wolves killed 18 lambs and one ewe. On July 25, five more lambs were killed.

“After the first kills, we moved the sheep a couple of miles, but it didn’t help,” Hamilton told the Wyoming Livestock Roundup, in a story published Saturday. “We’ve got guard dogs and one of the best sheep herders in the Big Horns. Our guard dogs work real well, and fortunately we didn’t lose any dogs.”

The Hamiltons own both sheep and cattle, and although wolves have been sighted near Hyattville, the ranch has not suffered previous wolf losses.

“There may be more losses that we don’t know about,” Hamilton told the magazine. “We won’t know that until we bring them in later this month.”

In an interview Tuesday, Hamilton said it was naïve for people to think that the wolves were going to remain in the park.

He reiterated what he told the magazine, saying it’s important that Wyoming and its governor defend the “predator” status of wolves in most of the state, as written in the Wyoming Wolf Management Plan.

“We have to be able to control (wolves), or we’ll have more problems. The fact that we haven’t been able to get wolves delisted is proof the Endangered Species Act (ESA) is broken. Wyoming has repeatedly met the FWS standards for delisting, and still they won’t delist the wolf in Wyoming. The ESA has only successfully delisted a handful of plants or animals. Often listing has nothing to do with the protection of a species,” he said.

Hamilton said the Defenders of Wildlife organization has paid ranchers in the past to compensate for animals lost to wolves, and that he will be submitting a claim to the organization for the 24 head that he lost, which he valued at between $4,000 and $5,000.

“They don’t have to pay the claims,” he said. “But we’re hopeful that they will pay ours.

As for this sheep that remain on the Big Horns, Hamilton said they will be moved this week to an area further south on the range. “The wolves have been spotted around here, too, so that doesn’t alleviate our concerns,” he said. “We could just as easily have that problem here, too.”

Jimenez said there have been no reported incidents since the July killings, and that he does not believe there are any wolf packs operating in the Big Horns. “None of them confirmed, anyway,” he said.

To report wolf sightings, contact Jimenez at 307-330-5631.

[Lowedog]

BP, I have never once argued that wolves are not the cause of decline of elk in areas like the Lolo zone.  I have read all this info before.  You seem to think I am arguing that wolves don't eat elk or am in favor of the wolf re-introduction.  I think something needs to be done about them and now in areas like this.  The elk in the Lolo zone have been declining big time since the mid 90's and wolves aren't helping them to make a rebound.  IDFG blamed the decline on high numbers of black bear and cougars and increased hunting pressure on both back before the wolf population took off there.  That elk herd has been in trouble for a long time and even before wolves were the main cause of mortality. 

I can't find it at the moment but read an article the other day where IDFG did a 3 yr study on I think all the zones where elk are in a decline and only I think 3 had wolves as the main cause of mortality.  That doesn't mean much about wolves to me because maybe wolves aren't in all those areass but it does say that elk are declining in a lot of areas for more reasons than just wolves.  I will try to find that link again and post it when I have more time. 

The only thing I have argued is that the introduced species of wolf being non-native to the lower 48.  If you are going to use Lewis and Clark for example then how do you explain the huge packs of wolves they saw following the bison and elk herds on the plains? 

[Special T]

lowedog... I think your statement about "how do we know that it isn't the right kind of wolf" is a good question... Here is why... If we cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these are NOT the indigenous wolfs, Then how can the USFS or any other NGO or agency prove the RIGHT kind of wolf was reintroduced to YNP (yellow stone national park)? Or into any other area... being that most wolves appeared  in the Montana Wyoming area  after the YNP introduction. 
As state law reads now, if i introduced a non native invasive species I would be liable for the monetary consequences for it... Take mil-foil for example... or in the great lakes some of the muscles or snails that have come in though ballast tanks of ships... Who should have the burden of proof if the wolves are indigenous or not? the general public? or whom ever trans planted them into the YNP?
I think that the burden of proof is on those who reintroduced to the YNP.  Unfortunately  we are having one sided conversations with our-self so we cannot get any meaning full answers...
Why would they not want to educate us and bring us out of ignorance?
1 They don't know themselves if the wolves are indigenous
2 They know they are not
3 They don't care
Their silence on this issue and many others tells us everything we need to know...  yes, no, and silence are ALL answers Especially SILENCE

[Lowedog]

Great answer ST!  Although the burden of proof would have to go both ways I would think.  Either party would have to be able to prove their case.

Anyway, this is a long read but I found it very interesting.

http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/lwsch/journals/bcealr/27_3/03_TXT.htm

[Special T]

Why do you think the burden of proof should go 2 ways? i'm kinda confused by that statement??? If we limit the discussion to YNP they brought them in, so wouldn't they have to prove they didn't screw up?

[Lowedog]

The only reason I say that is that if the argument is going to be made that they are indeed a non native sub species then I would think you would have to be able to prove it. 

Reading through some of the court rulings it doesn't really matter if they were non native.  The ESA allowed them to use the reintroduced wolves reasoning that there were no native wolf populations in those areas.  The reason they didn't introduce wolves in Montana is because there was proof that wolves had already established themselves there naturally. 

I would think a stronger argument could be made that there were already wolves in the areas where wolves were released and by reintroducing wolves to those areas they violated the ESA.  This has already been ruled on in court cases so better proof of existing wolf packs would need to be shown.  This far down the road that would be tough as all the original reintroduced and I am sure wolves already there have long since died. 

[bearpaw]

Lowedog, This issue has basically been avoided by the USFWS when some scientists redesignating numerous historically recognized sub-species into one gray wolf sub-specie. It is believed that this was done to accomodate the wolf introduction into Idaho and Yellowstone.

Pro-Management groups are trying to rekindle this issue because prior to the re-classification this would have been an illegal introduction.

The info about the redesignation by some scietists is also posted on my wolf site: http://graywolfnews.com/

[bearpaw]

If you are going to use Lewis and Clark for example then how do you explain the huge packs of wolves they saw following the bison and elk herds on the plains? 

Wolves like to eat bison too, but bison are larger animals, were in larger groups, and were harder for wolves to impact the population. I'm not sure what you mean here?

[bearpaw]

Check out this headline news, Idaho county, the largest county in Idaho has declared a disaster and is requesting the Governor to take action now:
http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2010/09/17/idaho-county-idaho-declares-wolf-disaster-fear-for-their-lives/

Idaho County, Idaho Declares Wolf Disaster, Fear For Their Lives
September 17, 2010

As I predicted several months ago, the wolf wars have now turned a corner and have become serious. Many of the uninformed believed that a few angry hunters and landowners might take it upon themselves to poach wolves in an attempt to save their properties and lessen the impact of wolves. Little did most suspect, including the greedy, maligned environmentalists, who even to this day are clamoring to have wolves in every state in this country.

The introduction of gray wolves into the Yellowstone ecosystem, in what was described as and is still labeled as a Nonessential Experimental Population, is an unmitigated disaster. It has reached a level now where one county in Idaho has declared their county a disaster because of uncontrolled wolves. Idaho County, Idaho citizens now fear for their lives, as is stated in the Disaster Declaration.

WHEREAS, the presence and boldness of wolves have caused citizens grave concern for their safety and the safety of their families….

The Idaho County Board of Commissioners take nearly 2 and a half pages to lay out the disaster as it has unfolded in their county. This includes not only the physical losses of properties, the stresses and strains of everyday life, fear, destruction of ungulates and a radical and abrupt change of lifestyle, but the politics and seeming agenda-driven decisions of the Courts.

The Declaration of Disaster defends its decision on State and County laws to do so and declares that Canadian Gray Wolves are, “causing vast devastation of the social culture, economy and natural resources of Idaho County.” And that as a result of the gray wolf, “Public safety is compromised, economic activity is disrupted and private and public property continues to be imperiled.”

Therefore the Idaho County Board of Commissioners, believing to be acting through legal State and County approved codes, is requesting that Idaho Governor Butch Otter immediately issue an “Executive Order or Disaster Proclamation” that would label the Canadian gray wolf a “managed predator”, as allowed under the 2002 Legislatively approved wolf management plan. This plan calls for wolves to be controlled at a level of about 150 wolves statewide. The Board of Commissioners is asking the Governor to use whatever means necessary to accomplish this.

The County is also requesting that Governor Otter continue this Disaster Proclamation until the wolves have been reduced to 2002 Wolf Management Plan levels and that policies be adopted to create “no-wolf tolerance zones” – near homes, ranches, schools and public recreation areas.

Idaho has now officially moved beyond the tit for tat debate about whether wolves are or are not good for Idaho or anybody else. I repeat! This experiment is an oppressive, relentless and unmitigated disaster at all levels. The envelope is far beyond being pushed as the result of lack of leadership and the state of Idaho being controlled by environmentalists instead of the people, with no support from U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

I would declare this to be a line drawn in the sand. One that apparently Governor Otter was unwilling to draw in dealing with the Feds about wolves.

On a related note: It was brought to my attention that during last nights television broadcast on Idaho Public TV program “Dialogue”, IDFG Director Cal Groen and State Wildlife Manager Jon Rachael were asked about the Idaho County Disaster Declaration and both stated they were unaware of it.

Tom Remington

[Lowedog]

If you are going to use Lewis and Clark for example then how do you explain the huge packs of wolves they saw following the bison and elk herds on the plains? 

Wolves like to eat bison too, but bison are larger animals, were in larger groups, and were harder for wolves to impact the population. I'm not sure what you mean here?

What I mean is that the wolves that preyed on bison and elk on the great plains 200 years ago were more than likely the larger subspecies of gray wolf since they were described as following the herds in “vast assemblages”. 

[Lowedog]

Check out this headline news, Idaho county, the largest county in Idaho has declared a disaster and is requesting the Governor to take action now:
http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2010/09/17/idaho-county-idaho-declares-wolf-disaster-fear-for-their-lives/

Idaho County, Idaho Declares Wolf Disaster, Fear For Their Lives
September 17, 2010

As I predicted several months ago, the wolf wars have now turned a corner and have become serious. Many of the uninformed believed that a few angry hunters and landowners might take it upon themselves to poach wolves in an attempt to save their properties and lessen the impact of wolves. Little did most suspect, including the greedy, maligned environmentalists, who even to this day are clamoring to have wolves in every state in this country.

The introduction of gray wolves into the Yellowstone ecosystem, in what was described as and is still labeled as a Nonessential Experimental Population, is an unmitigated disaster. It has reached a level now where one county in Idaho has declared their county a disaster because of uncontrolled wolves. Idaho County, Idaho citizens now fear for their lives, as is stated in the Disaster Declaration.

WHEREAS, the presence and boldness of wolves have caused citizens grave concern for their safety and the safety of their families….

The Idaho County Board of Commissioners take nearly 2 and a half pages to lay out the disaster as it has unfolded in their county. This includes not only the physical losses of properties, the stresses and strains of everyday life, fear, destruction of ungulates and a radical and abrupt change of lifestyle, but the politics and seeming agenda-driven decisions of the Courts.

The Declaration of Disaster defends its decision on State and County laws to do so and declares that Canadian Gray Wolves are, “causing vast devastation of the social culture, economy and natural resources of Idaho County.” And that as a result of the gray wolf, “Public safety is compromised, economic activity is disrupted and private and public property continues to be imperiled.”

Therefore the Idaho County Board of Commissioners, believing to be acting through legal State and County approved codes, is requesting that Idaho Governor Butch Otter immediately issue an “Executive Order or Disaster Proclamation” that would label the Canadian gray wolf a “managed predator”, as allowed under the 2002 Legislatively approved wolf management plan. This plan calls for wolves to be controlled at a level of about 150 wolves statewide. The Board of Commissioners is asking the Governor to use whatever means necessary to accomplish this.

The County is also requesting that Governor Otter continue this Disaster Proclamation until the wolves have been reduced to 2002 Wolf Management Plan levels and that policies be adopted to create “no-wolf tolerance zones” – near homes, ranches, schools and public recreation areas.

Idaho has now officially moved beyond the tit for tat debate about whether wolves are or are not good for Idaho or anybody else. I repeat! This experiment is an oppressive, relentless and unmitigated disaster at all levels. The envelope is far beyond being pushed as the result of lack of leadership and the state of Idaho being controlled by environmentalists instead of the people, with no support from U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

I would declare this to be a line drawn in the sand. One that apparently Governor Otter was unwilling to draw in dealing with the Feds about wolves.

On a related note: It was brought to my attention that during last nights television broadcast on Idaho Public TV program “Dialogue”, IDFG Director Cal Groen and State Wildlife Manager Jon Rachael were asked about the Idaho County Disaster Declaration and both stated they were unaware of it.

Tom Remington

There is a bold step!  It will be interesting to see what comes from this.  I would like to see some more main stream national media do some coverage on this.

[bearpaw]

If you are going to use Lewis and Clark for example then how do you explain the huge packs of wolves they saw following the bison and elk herds on the plains? 

Wolves like to eat bison too, but bison are larger animals, were in larger groups, and were harder for wolves to impact the population. I'm not sure what you mean here?

What I mean is that the wolves that preyed on bison and elk on the great plains 200 years ago were more than likely the larger subspecies of gray wolf since they were described as following the herds in “vast assemblages”. 

I can understand your assumption, but I think the largest wolves were the McKenzie wolves in northern Canada. The plains wolves were a different variety.

[bearpaw]

Check out this headline news, Idaho county, the largest county in Idaho has declared a disaster and is requesting the Governor to take action now:
http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2010/09/17/idaho-county-idaho-declares-wolf-disaster-fear-for-their-lives/

Idaho County, Idaho Declares Wolf Disaster, Fear For Their Lives
September 17, 2010

As I predicted several months ago, the wolf wars have now turned a corner and have become serious. Many of the uninformed believed that a few angry hunters and landowners might take it upon themselves to poach wolves in an attempt to save their properties and lessen the impact of wolves. Little did most suspect, including the greedy, maligned environmentalists, who even to this day are clamoring to have wolves in every state in this country.

The introduction of gray wolves into the Yellowstone ecosystem, in what was described as and is still labeled as a Nonessential Experimental Population, is an unmitigated disaster. It has reached a level now where one county in Idaho has declared their county a disaster because of uncontrolled wolves. Idaho County, Idaho citizens now fear for their lives, as is stated in the Disaster Declaration.

WHEREAS, the presence and boldness of wolves have caused citizens grave concern for their safety and the safety of their families….

The Idaho County Board of Commissioners take nearly 2 and a half pages to lay out the disaster as it has unfolded in their county. This includes not only the physical losses of properties, the stresses and strains of everyday life, fear, destruction of ungulates and a radical and abrupt change of lifestyle, but the politics and seeming agenda-driven decisions of the Courts.

The Declaration of Disaster defends its decision on State and County laws to do so and declares that Canadian Gray Wolves are, “causing vast devastation of the social culture, economy and natural resources of Idaho County.” And that as a result of the gray wolf, “Public safety is compromised, economic activity is disrupted and private and public property continues to be imperiled.”

Therefore the Idaho County Board of Commissioners, believing to be acting through legal State and County approved codes, is requesting that Idaho Governor Butch Otter immediately issue an “Executive Order or Disaster Proclamation” that would label the Canadian gray wolf a “managed predator”, as allowed under the 2002 Legislatively approved wolf management plan. This plan calls for wolves to be controlled at a level of about 150 wolves statewide. The Board of Commissioners is asking the Governor to use whatever means necessary to accomplish this.

The County is also requesting that Governor Otter continue this Disaster Proclamation until the wolves have been reduced to 2002 Wolf Management Plan levels and that policies be adopted to create “no-wolf tolerance zones” – near homes, ranches, schools and public recreation areas.

Idaho has now officially moved beyond the tit for tat debate about whether wolves are or are not good for Idaho or anybody else. I repeat! This experiment is an oppressive, relentless and unmitigated disaster at all levels. The envelope is far beyond being pushed as the result of lack of leadership and the state of Idaho being controlled by environmentalists instead of the people, with no support from U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

I would declare this to be a line drawn in the sand. One that apparently Governor Otter was unwilling to draw in dealing with the Feds about wolves.

On a related note: It was brought to my attention that during last nights television broadcast on Idaho Public TV program “Dialogue”, IDFG Director Cal Groen and State Wildlife Manager Jon Rachael were asked about the Idaho County Disaster Declaration and both stated they were unaware of it.

Tom Remington

There is a bold step!  It will be interesting to see what comes from this.  I would like to see some more main stream national media do some coverage on this.

The word amounst pro-management circles is that more counties will be doing the same thing very soon. People are fed up, they are taking action.

[bearpaw]

Check out this headline news, Idaho county, the largest county in Idaho has declared a disaster and is requesting the Governor to take action now:
http://mainehuntingtoday.com/bbb/2010/09/17/idaho-county-idaho-declares-wolf-disaster-fear-for-their-lives/

Idaho County, Idaho Declares Wolf Disaster, Fear For Their Lives
September 17, 2010

As I predicted several months ago, the wolf wars have now turned a corner and have become serious. Many of the uninformed believed that a few angry hunters and landowners might take it upon themselves to poach wolves in an attempt to save their properties and lessen the impact of wolves. Little did most suspect, including the greedy, maligned environmentalists, who even to this day are clamoring to have wolves in every state in this country.

The introduction of gray wolves into the Yellowstone ecosystem, in what was described as and is still labeled as a Nonessential Experimental Population, is an unmitigated disaster. It has reached a level now where one county in Idaho has declared their county a disaster because of uncontrolled wolves. Idaho County, Idaho citizens now fear for their lives, as is stated in the Disaster Declaration.

WHEREAS, the presence and boldness of wolves have caused citizens grave concern for their safety and the safety of their families….

The Idaho County Board of Commissioners take nearly 2 and a half pages to lay out the disaster as it has unfolded in their county. This includes not only the physical losses of properties, the stresses and strains of everyday life, fear, destruction of ungulates and a radical and abrupt change of lifestyle, but the politics and seeming agenda-driven decisions of the Courts.

The Declaration of Disaster defends its decision on State and County laws to do so and declares that Canadian Gray Wolves are, “causing vast devastation of the social culture, economy and natural resources of Idaho County.” And that as a result of the gray wolf, “Public safety is compromised, economic activity is disrupted and private and public property continues to be imperiled.”

Therefore the Idaho County Board of Commissioners, believing to be acting through legal State and County approved codes, is requesting that Idaho Governor Butch Otter immediately issue an “Executive Order or Disaster Proclamation” that would label the Canadian gray wolf a “managed predator”, as allowed under the 2002 Legislatively approved wolf management plan. This plan calls for wolves to be controlled at a level of about 150 wolves statewide. The Board of Commissioners is asking the Governor to use whatever means necessary to accomplish this.

The County is also requesting that Governor Otter continue this Disaster Proclamation until the wolves have been reduced to 2002 Wolf Management Plan levels and that policies be adopted to create “no-wolf tolerance zones” – near homes, ranches, schools and public recreation areas.

Idaho has now officially moved beyond the tit for tat debate about whether wolves are or are not good for Idaho or anybody else. I repeat! This experiment is an oppressive, relentless and unmitigated disaster at all levels. The envelope is far beyond being pushed as the result of lack of leadership and the state of Idaho being controlled by environmentalists instead of the people, with no support from U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

I would declare this to be a line drawn in the sand. One that apparently Governor Otter was unwilling to draw in dealing with the Feds about wolves.

On a related note: It was brought to my attention that during last nights television broadcast on Idaho Public TV program “Dialogue”, IDFG Director Cal Groen and State Wildlife Manager Jon Rachael were asked about the Idaho County Disaster Declaration and both stated they were unaware of it.

Tom Remington

There is a bold step!  It will be interesting to see what comes from this.  I would like to see some more main stream national media do some coverage on this.

The word amounst pro-management circles is that more counties will be doing the same thing very soon. People are fed up, they are taking action.

I should add, Governor Otter was elected because he said he wanted to buy the first wolf tag in Idaho. If Otter does not take action, he will likely be replaced. That was his motivation to send the letter to the feds last week giving them until Oct 7. I know for a fact there has been a steady stream of letters from concerned citizens to the governors office after Malloy ruled.