I don't know how we got so off topic, but I logged a piece in the little naches about 7 yrs. ago and most of that timber appeared good on the stump but once it hit the ground it was rotten as hell, I would venture to say we lost 35% to defect, had it been managed from the get go it would have gone close to 15% loss.I think most of the old growth might as well stand, mills can't cut it anyway's.