White river special permit holders of the past

[Practical Approach]

You know i could say a whole lot on why the natives dont hunt with traditional weapons, but i will just say that hunting with a modern firearm is easier for them.... Enough said.... 

Exactly, it is easier, that is why modern firearm is the largest user group.

[Practical Approach]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.

I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River.  The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults.  I think over 90% of them were cougar kills.  If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem.  I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better.  Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done.  IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them.  Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists.  And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

You are out of your mind.

No, just educated, sorry.

[Practical Approach]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.

I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River.  The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults.  I think over 90% of them were cougar kills.  If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem.  I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better.  Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done.  IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them.  Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists.  And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years.  That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!!  They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.

Not out of my mind.  I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management.  I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters.  It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area.  The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort.  I don't have to ask anyone, I was there.  If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing?  I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside.  I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot.  I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards.  I prefer to get my stories from his boss.

[7mag.]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a succesful rebound.

I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River.  The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults.  I think over 90% of them were cougar kills.  If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem.  I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better.  Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done.  IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them.  Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists.  And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years.  That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!!  They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.

Not out of my mind.  I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management.  I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters.  It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area.  The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort.  I don't have to ask anyone, I was there.  If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing?  I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside.  I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot.  I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards.  I prefer to get my stories from his boss.

You are either a Muckleshoot or a Muckleshoot supporter. If you grew up hunting that unit as I did, and personaly witnessed the waste of game and unethical methods practiced by the tribe, not to mention the severe decline in the heards, the night hunting, etc., you may have a different point of view. I grew up there, don't tell me you are more educated on the subject, I have seen it with my own eyes. I have been witness to several times when Bruce was trying to enforce the game laws, tribal or otherwise, and his "boss" called him off, and chewed his ass. His boss is no better than a politician, bowing to the tribes, like our Governor.

[Practical Approach]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a successful rebound.

I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River.  The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults.  I think over 90% of them were cougar kills.  If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem.  I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better.  Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done.  IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them.  Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists.  And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years.  That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!!  They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.

Not out of my mind.  I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management.  I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters.  It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area.  The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort.  I don't have to ask anyone, I was there.  If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing?  I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside.  I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot.  I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards.  I prefer to get my stories from his boss.

You are either a Muckleshoot or a Muckleshoot supporter. If you grew up hunting that unit as I did, and personaly witnessed the waste of game and unethical methods practiced by the tribe, not to mention the severe decline in the heards, the night hunting, etc., you may have a different point of view. I grew up there, don't tell me you are more educated on the subject, I have seen it with my own eyes. I have been witness to several times when Bruce was trying to enforce the game laws, tribal or otherwise, and his "boss" called him off, and chewed his ass. His boss is no better than a politician, bowing to the tribes, like our Governor.

No not Muckleshoot, but I do support the work their game department has done for the past 12 years.  I don't agree with waste or unethical methods practiced for hunting.  Waste is waste.  I don't disregard what you have seen, I don't hunt that area, never have and likely never will.  I don't doubt that there were bad hunting practices in the past by tribes and by state hunters.  I do feel that things are getting better.  I am not sure which laws Bruce was trying to enforce, but if it wasn't a law that applied to tribal hunters then he probably had no business trying to enforce it.  That is why he was likely called off.  The state will cite a tribal member just the same as a state hunter if the law is applicable.  If tribal regs do not require hunter orange, then the state can't cite the tribal hunter for not wearing orange.  Just an example.  I am sure you have other stories and circumstances.  As long as you are accusing me of being muckleshoot, I guess you might be a WDFW enforcement officer or Bruce's best friend?

[bigtex]

Glad to read what you've written about Bruce. You couldn't have said it better, Gob bless the man. He was partner to my wife's uncle Terry Hoffer so we get to see him once in a while and the stories he has about the mucks will make your blood boil. The man is a hero to me and should be to all those who care about elk and other wildlife in our state. What sucks is when he retires the mucks will probably kill 10 elk in celebration, no matter what time of year it will be. It will be a sad day when he hangs up his boots, I wish he would write a book and/or sit down with a news person and tell his life story for all the public to hear. That would be very bad for the tribes, which would make me extremely happy. Go Bruce Richards, and for the younger wardens that are on this site- you can learn a lot from Bruce as you should.

The sad thing is Bruce is probably the last "true" game warden in this state. Being a game warden use to be part biologist and part cop. When hunting seasons were over you were in the woods doing biological studies on herds and working with the animals, and of course every once in a while you would run into a poacher. Now days they are "Fish and Wildlife Police Officers", not Wildlife Agents or Game Wardens. The biological aspect of their job duties is now gone, about the only time a WDFW Officer puts hands on a live animal these days are when an animal is running down main street and they need to tranquilize it. Other then that they are 100% law enforcement officers. Well Bruce really does his own thing, yea he is still a fish and wildlife law enforcement officer but he still does the wildlife management part of the job.

Unfortunately Bruce has not been given the support and backing he should be getting by the department, and it is probably one of the reasons he can be a "grumpy" guy. But if you really know him then you know he probably has the biggest heart of any man there is. He not only helps the wildlife in his area but also the kids in the area as well. He is always bringing high school students around and introducing them to wildlife management and science.

Your right, the tribe will probably have a huge celebration when he retires. I know he hasn't set a date yet but of course it is coming. He was about to retire 2/3 years ago but then WDFW Biologist Rocky Spencer died and Bruce basically violunteered and started WDFW Enforcement's Karelien Bear Dog Program which most people see on TV dealing with bear and cougar problems.

I would love it if Bruce were to write a book about his experiences in his career. But knowing the type of person he is, he is the last to "talk up" or hype himself up. A very quiet man who keeps to himself but has impacted a ton of lives and a truely important individual to wildlife in his area.

[bigtex]

Practical:
Which tribe do you belong to? Because after looking at your post history you are obviously a member of some tribe.

[bigtex]

A good read for anybody on here would be this site: http://www.peer.org/docs/wa/06_9_6_tribal_records_summary.pdf It was made after a public records request regarding tribal fishing and hunting violations, mostly Muckleshoot and mostly in the White River area. Most of these incidents involve Bruce Richards. It shows the disrespect he gets from his superiors who would rather just let the tribe kill all the animals but also the disrespect from the tribe.

[Practical Approach]

Practical:
Which tribe do you belong to? Because after looking at your post history you are obviously a member of some tribe.

No I am not a member of any tribe.  I am a state hunter as well and have worked with tribal and state game issues for a while now.  Some tribal programs I have worked pretty close with.  The tribal posts interest me since some of the topics are pretty close to me at times. My goal is not to try to stir things up, but try to provide some insight from some of the programs that I have worked on or agencies that I have worked with.  Unfortunately, by blood starts to boil sometimes too and I get carried away.  

[7mag.]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a successful rebound.

I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River.  The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults.  I think over 90% of them were cougar kills.  If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem.  I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better.  Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done.  IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them.  Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists.  And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years.  That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!!  They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.

Not out of my mind.  I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management.  I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters.  It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area.  The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort.  I don't have to ask anyone, I was there.  If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing?  I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside.  I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot.  I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards.  I prefer to get my stories from his boss.

You are either a Muckleshoot or a Muckleshoot supporter. If you grew up hunting that unit as I did, and personaly witnessed the waste of game and unethical methods practiced by the tribe, not to mention the severe decline in the heards, the night hunting, etc., you may have a different point of view. I grew up there, don't tell me you are more educated on the subject, I have seen it with my own eyes. I have been witness to several times when Bruce was trying to enforce the game laws, tribal or otherwise, and his "boss" called him off, and chewed his ass. His boss is no better than a politician, bowing to the tribes, like our Governor.

No not Muckleshoot, but I do support the work their game department has done for the past 12 years.  I don't agree with waste or unethical methods practiced for hunting.  Waste is waste.  I don't disregard what you have seen, I don't hunt that area, never have and likely never will.  I don't doubt that there were bad hunting practices in the past by tribes and by state hunters.  I do feel that things are getting better.  I am not sure which laws Bruce was trying to enforce, but if it wasn't a law that applied to tribal hunters then he probably had no business trying to enforce it.  That is why he was likely called off.  The state will cite a tribal member just the same as a state hunter if the law is applicable.  If tribal regs do not require hunter orange, then the state can't cite the tribal hunter for not wearing orange.  Just an example.  I am sure you have other stories and circumstances.  As long as you are accusing me of being muckleshoot, I guess you might be a WDFW enforcement officer or Bruce's best friend?

I am neither a WDFW officer or a friend of Bruce's. I do respect all enforcement officers, especially Bruce. I know him because I grew up hunting the area he patrols. He has checked my license and harvested game numerous times. The incidents that I have witnessed are against state and tribal laws, the Culprits caught in the act, and when Bruce was in the process of ticketing them and confiscating the animals, he was called by his superiors, who told him to give the animals back and apologize. When Bruce protested, he was threatened with disciplinary action. I didn't know it was ok for tribal members to hunt in the middle of the night in February on private, posted property, as 2 of these instances occured. That's just the 2 most haneous accounts I have witnessed. Taking heads and leaving the meat, shooting bulls and cows, taking the bull's head, and leaving all the meat, never even approaching the cows. If you say it's getting better, I hope you're right, there is a very long way to go. A lot of animosity is built up between the tribe and the local hunters, and it will take a huge effort on the tribes part to even begin to mend it.

[Practical Approach]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a successful rebound.

I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River.  The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults.  I think over 90% of them were cougar kills.  If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem.  I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better.  Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done.  IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them.  Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists.  And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years.  That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!!  They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.

Not out of my mind.  I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management.  I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters.  It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area.  The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort.  I don't have to ask anyone, I was there.  If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing?  I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside.  I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot.  I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards.  I prefer to get my stories from his boss.

You are either a Muckleshoot or a Muckleshoot supporter. If you grew up hunting that unit as I did, and personaly witnessed the waste of game and unethical methods practiced by the tribe, not to mention the severe decline in the heards, the night hunting, etc., you may have a different point of view. I grew up there, don't tell me you are more educated on the subject, I have seen it with my own eyes. I have been witness to several times when Bruce was trying to enforce the game laws, tribal or otherwise, and his "boss" called him off, and chewed his ass. His boss is no better than a politician, bowing to the tribes, like our Governor.

No not Muckleshoot, but I do support the work their game department has done for the past 12 years.  I don't agree with waste or unethical methods practiced for hunting.  Waste is waste.  I don't disregard what you have seen, I don't hunt that area, never have and likely never will.  I don't doubt that there were bad hunting practices in the past by tribes and by state hunters.  I do feel that things are getting better.  I am not sure which laws Bruce was trying to enforce, but if it wasn't a law that applied to tribal hunters then he probably had no business trying to enforce it.  That is why he was likely called off.  The state will cite a tribal member just the same as a state hunter if the law is applicable.  If tribal regs do not require hunter orange, then the state can't cite the tribal hunter for not wearing orange.  Just an example.  I am sure you have other stories and circumstances.  As long as you are accusing me of being muckleshoot, I guess you might be a WDFW enforcement officer or Bruce's best friend?

I am neither a WDFW officer or a friend of Bruce's. I do respect all enforcement officers, especially Bruce. I know him because I grew up hunting the area he patrols. He has checked my license and harvested game numerous times. The incidents that I have witnessed are against state and tribal laws, the Culprits caught in the act, and when Bruce was in the process of ticketing them and confiscating the animals, he was called by his superiors, who told him to give the animals back and apologize. When Bruce protested, he was threatened with disciplinary action. I didn't know it was ok for tribal members to hunt in the middle of the night in February on private, posted property, as 2 of these instances occured. That's just the 2 most haneous accounts I have witnessed. Taking heads and leaving the meat, shooting bulls and cows, taking the bull's head, and leaving all the meat, never even approaching the cows. If you say it's getting better, I hope you're right, there is a very long way to go. A lot of animosity is built up between the tribe and the local hunters, and it will take a huge effort on the tribes part to even begin to mend it.

Good to hear I respect enforcement officers as well.  I have met Bruce many times as well, can't say I know him very well though. He seemed to be a nice guy as well.  At Rocky's funeral his speech was very warm and heartfelt.  However, I have never known Bruce in the field as a tribal hunter.  I would be appalled if the instance you are referring to is true and his superiors told him to apologize.  If the tribal member was on private property then he should have been cited for that at a minimum.  However, was it posted timberland or farmland?   If it was timberland, then that is a gray area for the state and that is probably why he was called down for the private property part.  Not sure what to make of the rest except I hope that was a while back and not a new case. 

[skipper]

7 mag bet you're talking about the elk thats hanging in the tribes building that was shot on private land in a farmers field lol

[trophyhunt]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a successful rebound.

I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River.  The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults.  I think over 90% of them were cougar kills.  If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem.  I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better.  Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done.  IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them.  Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists.  And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years.  That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!!  They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.

Not out of my mind.  I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management.  I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters.  It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area.  The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort.  I don't have to ask anyone, I was there.  If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing?  I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside.  I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot.  I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards.  I prefer to get my stories from his boss.

You are either a Muckleshoot or a Muckleshoot supporter. If you grew up hunting that unit as I did, and personaly witnessed the waste of game and unethical methods practiced by the tribe, not to mention the severe decline in the heards, the night hunting, etc., you may have a different point of view. I grew up there, don't tell me you are more educated on the subject, I have seen it with my own eyes. I have been witness to several times when Bruce was trying to enforce the game laws, tribal or otherwise, and his "boss" called him off, and chewed his ass. His boss is no better than a politician, bowing to the tribes, like our Governor.

No not Muckleshoot, but I do support the work their game department has done for the past 12 years.  I don't agree with waste or unethical methods practiced for hunting.  Waste is waste.  I don't disregard what you have seen, I don't hunt that area, never have and likely never will.  I don't doubt that there were bad hunting practices in the past by tribes and by state hunters.  I do feel that things are getting better.  I am not sure which laws Bruce was trying to enforce, but if it wasn't a law that applied to tribal hunters then he probably had no business trying to enforce it.  That is why he was likely called off.  The state will cite a tribal member just the same as a state hunter if the law is applicable.  If tribal regs do not require hunter orange, then the state can't cite the tribal hunter for not wearing orange.  Just an example.  I am sure you have other stories and circumstances.  As long as you are accusing me of being muckleshoot, I guess you might be a WDFW enforcement officer or Bruce's best friend?

I am neither a WDFW officer or a friend of Bruce's. I do respect all enforcement officers, especially Bruce. I know him because I grew up hunting the area he patrols. He has checked my license and harvested game numerous times. The incidents that I have witnessed are against state and tribal laws, the Culprits caught in the act, and when Bruce was in the process of ticketing them and confiscating the animals, he was called by his superiors, who told him to give the animals back and apologize. When Bruce protested, he was threatened with disciplinary action. I didn't know it was ok for tribal members to hunt in the middle of the night in February on private, posted property, as 2 of these instances occured. That's just the 2 most haneous accounts I have witnessed. Taking heads and leaving the meat, shooting bulls and cows, taking the bull's head, and leaving all the meat, never even approaching the cows. If you say it's getting better, I hope you're right, there is a very long way to go. A lot of animosity is built up between the tribe and the local hunters, and it will take a huge effort on the tribes part to even begin to mend it.

Good to hear I respect enforcement officers as well.  I have met Bruce many times as well, can't say I know him very well though. He seemed to be a nice guy as well.  At Rocky's funeral his speech was very warm and heartfelt.  However, I have never known Bruce in the field as a tribal hunter.  I would be appalled if the instance you are referring to is true and his superiors told him to apologize.  If the tribal member was on private property then he should have been cited for that at a minimum.  However, was it posted timberland or farmland?   If it was timberland, then that is a gray area for the state and that is probably why he was called down for the private property part.  Not sure what to make of the rest except I hope that was a while back and not a new case. 

Bruce told me about that incident, it was not in the forest land and was on private property. The story is true and did happen, just a small example of what he has had to put up with in his career.

[Practical Approach]

I love the White River Unit. However WDFW closed it down to general season a couple years ago because the herd was so low, of course this was due to the fact of all the tribal hunting, and then add in the general citizen hunt. This unit use to be one of the top units for general elk in the state. I think in order to save the current herd the permit only for this unit needs to stay. The Muckleshoots which is the tribe that hunts the unit the most will not give in to WDFW and amend their regulations in order to save their elk. The Muckleshoots have always said the reason why the herd decreased so much was not because of over hunting but rather cougars, give me a break. I think that for the best interest of the elk the unit needs to stay permit only, at least until the herd numbers rebound significantly, the numbers are already increasing but not to a point where you could call it a successful rebound.

I wish the Muckleshoot tribe would publish the work that they have been doing over the past 10 years regarding elk, deer and cougar in the White and Green River.  The first year that Muckleshoot radiomarked approximately 20 elk calves, all of them died before reaching adults.  I think over 90% of them were cougar kills.  If you have 0 recruitment, hunting is only additive to the problem.  I hear now that with a little predator control in the area that the calf cow ratios are way up and the population is doing much better.  Don't kid yourselves, the Muckleshoot tribe has done more for the White and Green river watersheds in the past 10 years than WDFW can even pretend to have done.  IF you don't believe that then ask WDFW who is writing WDFW's South Rainier elk Herd plan for them.  Muckleshoot has lots of cash and a well funded wildlife program staffed with some great biologists.  And again, I have said this before, Muckleshoot hunters have stricter hunting regulations than non-tribal. They are restricted to one elk per household.  They are highly enforced and have huge penalties for not reporting harvest data.   

You are out of your mind, just ask the watershed patrol about what the mucks did to that elk herd 10 or more years ago. They changed it from the best tag in the state to no more tags you dumb *censored*. Sorry but your comments are completly screwed up, they hunted that watershed till there was no more f.n. elk in there. Ask Mr. Richards the local game warden about it, he would know all of the FACTS not BS that your trying to tell us. It was the fish and game that started relocating elk back to the watershed, and as far as predators, yes they had a big problem with bear and cougar in the shed but that has been taken care of the past few years.  That is one thing the mucks did right in the shed, they got to hunt in there with dogs for bears you know like they did a couple hundred years ago!!  They even ran over there best dog with their truck just weeks after paying thousands of dollars for it. Don't tell us about how they care about bringing the elk and deer back, that's just fn stupid of you to think we believe that BS. And about enforcement.......There is NO enforcement, again just ask Mr. Richards. Your so full of ..it.

Not out of my mind.  I mentioned unfriendly officers to the tribes and didn't want to mention names, however you brought Bruce up. Yes, I don't belive much of what he says. He is not a good person for state tribal wildlife management.  I agree that hunting and primarily cougars played an important role in why the herd went to tag only for state hunters.  It was the cooperation of the tribe and the state that relocated the elk back to that area.  The state provided personel, along with volunteers and the tribe provided personel as well and funded the whole effort.  I don't have to ask anyone, I was there.  If there is no enforcement then what is Bruce doing?  I have a good relationship with state folks and tribal folks and am pretty confident I somewhat understand the dynamics, in enforcemtn, hunting,wildlife management etc. at least on the westside.  I also know when I am hearing dribble being spewed out of hatred and just trying to stir the pot.  I applaud your emotion in your dialogue, however your argument lost meaning with me as soon as you mentioned Mr. Richards.  I prefer to get my stories from his boss.

You are either a Muckleshoot or a Muckleshoot supporter. If you grew up hunting that unit as I did, and personaly witnessed the waste of game and unethical methods practiced by the tribe, not to mention the severe decline in the heards, the night hunting, etc., you may have a different point of view. I grew up there, don't tell me you are more educated on the subject, I have seen it with my own eyes. I have been witness to several times when Bruce was trying to enforce the game laws, tribal or otherwise, and his "boss" called him off, and chewed his ass. His boss is no better than a politician, bowing to the tribes, like our Governor.

No not Muckleshoot, but I do support the work their game department has done for the past 12 years.  I don't agree with waste or unethical methods practiced for hunting.  Waste is waste.  I don't disregard what you have seen, I don't hunt that area, never have and likely never will.  I don't doubt that there were bad hunting practices in the past by tribes and by state hunters.  I do feel that things are getting better.  I am not sure which laws Bruce was trying to enforce, but if it wasn't a law that applied to tribal hunters then he probably had no business trying to enforce it.  That is why he was likely called off.  The state will cite a tribal member just the same as a state hunter if the law is applicable.  If tribal regs do not require hunter orange, then the state can't cite the tribal hunter for not wearing orange.  Just an example.  I am sure you have other stories and circumstances.  As long as you are accusing me of being muckleshoot, I guess you might be a WDFW enforcement officer or Bruce's best friend?

I am neither a WDFW officer or a friend of Bruce's. I do respect all enforcement officers, especially Bruce. I know him because I grew up hunting the area he patrols. He has checked my license and harvested game numerous times. The incidents that I have witnessed are against state and tribal laws, the Culprits caught in the act, and when Bruce was in the process of ticketing them and confiscating the animals, he was called by his superiors, who told him to give the animals back and apologize. When Bruce protested, he was threatened with disciplinary action. I didn't know it was ok for tribal members to hunt in the middle of the night in February on private, posted property, as 2 of these instances occured. That's just the 2 most haneous accounts I have witnessed. Taking heads and leaving the meat, shooting bulls and cows, taking the bull's head, and leaving all the meat, never even approaching the cows. If you say it's getting better, I hope you're right, there is a very long way to go. A lot of animosity is built up between the tribe and the local hunters, and it will take a huge effort on the tribes part to even begin to mend it.

Good to hear I respect enforcement officers as well.  I have met Bruce many times as well, can't say I know him very well though. He seemed to be a nice guy as well.  At Rocky's funeral his speech was very warm and heartfelt.  However, I have never known Bruce in the field as a tribal hunter.  I would be appalled if the instance you are referring to is true and his superiors told him to apologize.  If the tribal member was on private property then he should have been cited for that at a minimum.  However, was it posted timberland or farmland?   If it was timberland, then that is a gray area for the state and that is probably why he was called down for the private property part.  Not sure what to make of the rest except I hope that was a while back and not a new case. 

Bruce told me about that incident, it was not in the forest land and was on private property. The story is true and did happen, just a small example of what he has had to put up with in his career.

Must have made him pretty mad,  sounds as though he made a point to tell the whole world this story.  Not sure how that subject comes up in normal conversation or by being checked in the field?

[bigtex]

Practical: Some of us actually talk to WDFW Officers when being checked. Kind of like, any big cases lately? or What happened last week, I saw you going with lights and siren?