Free: Contests & Raffles.
Quote from: ribka on April 20, 2011, 08:06:35 PMQuote from: 383man on April 20, 2011, 07:32:39 PMQuote from: ribka on April 20, 2011, 12:54:04 PMQuote from: 383man on April 19, 2011, 09:18:16 PMQuote from: ribka on April 19, 2011, 11:46:10 AMQuote from: 383man on April 19, 2011, 11:32:00 AMJust to be clear, I still haven't heard anybody contest the fact that the Chevy trucks in the test videos, have better braking, faster acceleration, firmer frames, less bumper sag, etc... than the fords? just personal preferance talk really...I love how people say "ford doesn't sell the most trucks every year for no reason", no, there's a reason, same reason mcdonalds sells there cheap food more than anybody else, cheap prices. There is however a reason why Silverado is Motor Trend Truck of the Year! Motor Trend ratings lost all credibility with that rating. They rated the Chevy Volt number one too.Of course it had nothing to do with the Obama administration spending billions of our tax dollars bailing them out. The GM auto unions in retrun donated millions of union dues to the Dem party and Obama. GM uses our money to bulid plants in Mexico and China. What a racket! No thanksEvery GM product I have owned has been unreliable.Just had a 2010 chevy work truck crap out with less than 15,000 miles. Transmission is shot. Replaced under warrantyAll my Toyotas have ran over 200,000 miles with only oil changes and brakes replaced. ZERO problems. All bulit here in the US with non Dem laborSee your confused, you are saying that because our tax dollars went into restructuring GM, the Chevy Volt isn't an amazing vehicle, and shouldn't be motor trend car of the year? I could be wrong, but i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say I dought company financing goes into how they choose their winners. and your completely missing the point on the mcdonalds comment, or avoiding it anyways, it's not because they are quality, it's because they're cheap, if you think that mcdonalds makes a quality product, jokes on you. And the fact that you think GM used our money to build plants in mexico and china is cute at best, definately laughable. GM doesn't have factories in china first off, second off, all the parts they build in mexico and send up for assembly have been being built there since way before the bailout, just like ford does, please be informed instead of making up points.So a tax payer funded bail out ( theft) of our money to give to corporations ( Gm) that in trun give them money ( forced union dues) to the corrupt Dem party is a good thing for me as a consumer. Sound slike money laundering to me. They needed a bail -out because they built a crappy product and could not compete on a fiar playing field. The Price Of A Bailout? Every GM Car Sold Will Cost Taxpayers $12,000 Through 2011 www.ntu.orgThe American taxpayer has put up $12,200 for every General Motors vehicle sold through the beginning of 2011, and $7,600 for every Chrysler vehicle sold as well, according to a new report issued by the 362,000-member National Taxpayers Union (NTU).The report, The Auto Bailout - A Taxpayer Quagmire, authored by NTU Adjunct Scholar Thomas D. Hopkins, Professor of Economics at the University of Rochester, does the math on what the government bailout of the auto industry - including General Motors, Chrysler, and GMAC - actually means to American taxpayers, including how much each taxpayer has contributed to the auto industry since December 2008 and how much each vehicle is costing us."Every time someone in your neighborhood drives home in a shiny new Chevy Silverado, remember that it cost American taxpayers more than $12,000," said Pete Sepp, NTU Vice President for Policy and Communications. "Between this and GM's plan to payback their bailout debt with other taxpayer funds, I wonder if all those Americans without work right now could think of any better ways to spend that money. This is a play out of the Bernie Madoff ponzi scheme playbook, and would be the equivalent of paying your Master Card bill with your Visa."The study found that the average American taxpaying family has invested roughly $800 in the auto bailouts so far. Moreover, the study found, the government support poured into General Motors, Chrysler, and GMAC - the financing subsidiary that supports sales at both - now stands at a towering $78.9 billion. Given that figure, and an estimate of how many vehicles GM and Chrysler will sell through the end of 2010, the study finds that each vehicle one of the bailed-out companies sells costs taxpayers $10,700.Finally, breaking down the costs by company, the study reports that every Chrysler vehicle sold costs taxpayers $7,600, and every GM vehicle sold costs taxpayers $12,200.The research is based upon a November study released by the Government Accountability Office (GAO), entitled "Continued Stewardship Needed as Treasury Develops Strategies for Monitoring and Divesting Financial Interests in Chrysler and GM," a follow-up report on the "Troubled Asset Relief Program," as well as statements and reports released from the U.S. Treasury.Additional Findings Include: GMAC receives government guarantees not available to most private firms. Coincidentally, these are the same private firms that are forced to compete with GMAC's taxpayer-assisted bank, Ally Bank. These guarantees save GMAC about $500 million annually in interest costs.During the first ten months of 2009, GM and Chrysler sales fell further than other major auto producers, down 33.4 percent and 38.9 percent, respectively.While the prospect of repayment of GM and Chrysler loans might be expected, after bankruptcy the vast majority of the bailout funds are no longer legal obligations of the newly-structured GM and Chrysler.If Americans are to believe public officials' claims that the government will eventually reprivatize the auto industry, the necessity of a thoughtful exit plan is essential. However, at this time no such plan exists, making it likely that the Treasury will not recover its investment."[T]he bailout has created moral hazard problems, inadvertently handicapping the progress of stronger, non-subsidized producers," Professor Hopkins concluded. "The problems extend beyond just the auto industry, as favored status for one financial company and its bank necessarily complicates prospects for non-subsidized rivals. The time has come to stop such bailouts, and in an orderly way, to seek at least some recovery for taxpayers."You sir, are a wonderful example of a straw man, see The "Straw Man" Fallacyyou did not refute any of my points, all you stated was what everyone already knows, that GM got into trouble, took some help from us, and are working hard at paying it back, the government only owns 26% of GM now down from 61% before, due to them selling back the shares that were bought for the bailout. the remaining 26% will be sold back in the next year when share prices rise enough as to not lose money on them. that being said, what does any of this have to do with our original conversation about the fact that silverado and volt trucks and cars are the motor trend trucks/cars of the year? please re-read my previous post, and respond to the actual conversation, or not at all, it's silly to argue with someone about apples and all their talking about is oranges...A Chevy Volt, car of the year, gets less gas milage than my 1981 VW Rabbit and it costs over $40,000. What a scam. Did you buy one?Why was GM bailed out? Because the UAW give sthe Dems million sin union dues each year. Plain and simple truth!!!How a guy can go on a fishing and hunting web site and brag about their GM product is beyond my comprehension.Still waiting for my check from GM. And they need to pay pay me interest for the tax payer loan too. Interesting that all of the stockholders of GM stock were screwed in this deal and lost tens of millions of dollars.GM vehicles are manufacture by the corrupt UAW union. The UAW forces their members to pay mandatory union dues and gives their dues in the form of political contributions to the Dem Party. Millions of dollars a year.Now many in the Dem Party want to outlaw firearms and ban hunting. They are the same ones behind the introduction of wolves so they can shut down hunting. No deer elk moose- no hunting.How sportsmen can convince themselves this a good thing is beyond my comprehension.http://visiontoamerica.org/21/obama-to-sell-gm-stock-at-huge-loss-to-taxpayers/You must just luv Obumbles and want him re-electedI'll stick with non-union American made ToyotasI believe were done here, I am a conservative, I do not like obama, nor do I want him re-elected, but do I hate gm because they are unionized? no, by that logic you hate all teachers because they are unionized, i guess you hate nurses too, get a grip on reality man. and the volt gets 50mpg on straight gas, but the first 40miles is all electric, so really, on a average day, you consume no gas, no I do not own one, but I do think the technology is amazing. your arguments are typical I hate unions banter, I'm not a fan either, but GM isn't benifiting from being a union, if you knew how unions worked you'd know that it cost companies more money when their employees go union, just stop getting it confused, you can get all political if you want, but none of that means anything about the vehicles themselves.
Quote from: 383man on April 20, 2011, 07:32:39 PMQuote from: ribka on April 20, 2011, 12:54:04 PMQuote from: 383man on April 19, 2011, 09:18:16 PMQuote from: ribka on April 19, 2011, 11:46:10 AMQuote from: 383man on April 19, 2011, 11:32:00 AMJust to be clear, I still haven't heard anybody contest the fact that the Chevy trucks in the test videos, have better braking, faster acceleration, firmer frames, less bumper sag, etc... than the fords? just personal preferance talk really...I love how people say "ford doesn't sell the most trucks every year for no reason", no, there's a reason, same reason mcdonalds sells there cheap food more than anybody else, cheap prices. There is however a reason why Silverado is Motor Trend Truck of the Year! Motor Trend ratings lost all credibility with that rating. They rated the Chevy Volt number one too.Of course it had nothing to do with the Obama administration spending billions of our tax dollars bailing them out. The GM auto unions in retrun donated millions of union dues to the Dem party and Obama. GM uses our money to bulid plants in Mexico and China. What a racket! No thanksEvery GM product I have owned has been unreliable.Just had a 2010 chevy work truck crap out with less than 15,000 miles. Transmission is shot. Replaced under warrantyAll my Toyotas have ran over 200,000 miles with only oil changes and brakes replaced. ZERO problems. All bulit here in the US with non Dem laborSee your confused, you are saying that because our tax dollars went into restructuring GM, the Chevy Volt isn't an amazing vehicle, and shouldn't be motor trend car of the year? I could be wrong, but i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say I dought company financing goes into how they choose their winners. and your completely missing the point on the mcdonalds comment, or avoiding it anyways, it's not because they are quality, it's because they're cheap, if you think that mcdonalds makes a quality product, jokes on you. And the fact that you think GM used our money to build plants in mexico and china is cute at best, definately laughable. GM doesn't have factories in china first off, second off, all the parts they build in mexico and send up for assembly have been being built there since way before the bailout, just like ford does, please be informed instead of making up points.So a tax payer funded bail out ( theft) of our money to give to corporations ( Gm) that in trun give them money ( forced union dues) to the corrupt Dem party is a good thing for me as a consumer. Sound slike money laundering to me. They needed a bail -out because they built a crappy product and could not compete on a fiar playing field. The Price Of A Bailout? Every GM Car Sold Will Cost Taxpayers $12,000 Through 2011 www.ntu.orgThe American taxpayer has put up $12,200 for every General Motors vehicle sold through the beginning of 2011, and $7,600 for every Chrysler vehicle sold as well, according to a new report issued by the 362,000-member National Taxpayers Union (NTU).The report, The Auto Bailout - A Taxpayer Quagmire, authored by NTU Adjunct Scholar Thomas D. Hopkins, Professor of Economics at the University of Rochester, does the math on what the government bailout of the auto industry - including General Motors, Chrysler, and GMAC - actually means to American taxpayers, including how much each taxpayer has contributed to the auto industry since December 2008 and how much each vehicle is costing us."Every time someone in your neighborhood drives home in a shiny new Chevy Silverado, remember that it cost American taxpayers more than $12,000," said Pete Sepp, NTU Vice President for Policy and Communications. "Between this and GM's plan to payback their bailout debt with other taxpayer funds, I wonder if all those Americans without work right now could think of any better ways to spend that money. This is a play out of the Bernie Madoff ponzi scheme playbook, and would be the equivalent of paying your Master Card bill with your Visa."The study found that the average American taxpaying family has invested roughly $800 in the auto bailouts so far. Moreover, the study found, the government support poured into General Motors, Chrysler, and GMAC - the financing subsidiary that supports sales at both - now stands at a towering $78.9 billion. Given that figure, and an estimate of how many vehicles GM and Chrysler will sell through the end of 2010, the study finds that each vehicle one of the bailed-out companies sells costs taxpayers $10,700.Finally, breaking down the costs by company, the study reports that every Chrysler vehicle sold costs taxpayers $7,600, and every GM vehicle sold costs taxpayers $12,200.The research is based upon a November study released by the Government Accountability Office (GAO), entitled "Continued Stewardship Needed as Treasury Develops Strategies for Monitoring and Divesting Financial Interests in Chrysler and GM," a follow-up report on the "Troubled Asset Relief Program," as well as statements and reports released from the U.S. Treasury.Additional Findings Include: GMAC receives government guarantees not available to most private firms. Coincidentally, these are the same private firms that are forced to compete with GMAC's taxpayer-assisted bank, Ally Bank. These guarantees save GMAC about $500 million annually in interest costs.During the first ten months of 2009, GM and Chrysler sales fell further than other major auto producers, down 33.4 percent and 38.9 percent, respectively.While the prospect of repayment of GM and Chrysler loans might be expected, after bankruptcy the vast majority of the bailout funds are no longer legal obligations of the newly-structured GM and Chrysler.If Americans are to believe public officials' claims that the government will eventually reprivatize the auto industry, the necessity of a thoughtful exit plan is essential. However, at this time no such plan exists, making it likely that the Treasury will not recover its investment."[T]he bailout has created moral hazard problems, inadvertently handicapping the progress of stronger, non-subsidized producers," Professor Hopkins concluded. "The problems extend beyond just the auto industry, as favored status for one financial company and its bank necessarily complicates prospects for non-subsidized rivals. The time has come to stop such bailouts, and in an orderly way, to seek at least some recovery for taxpayers."You sir, are a wonderful example of a straw man, see The "Straw Man" Fallacyyou did not refute any of my points, all you stated was what everyone already knows, that GM got into trouble, took some help from us, and are working hard at paying it back, the government only owns 26% of GM now down from 61% before, due to them selling back the shares that were bought for the bailout. the remaining 26% will be sold back in the next year when share prices rise enough as to not lose money on them. that being said, what does any of this have to do with our original conversation about the fact that silverado and volt trucks and cars are the motor trend trucks/cars of the year? please re-read my previous post, and respond to the actual conversation, or not at all, it's silly to argue with someone about apples and all their talking about is oranges...A Chevy Volt, car of the year, gets less gas milage than my 1981 VW Rabbit and it costs over $40,000. What a scam. Did you buy one?Why was GM bailed out? Because the UAW give sthe Dems million sin union dues each year. Plain and simple truth!!!How a guy can go on a fishing and hunting web site and brag about their GM product is beyond my comprehension.Still waiting for my check from GM. And they need to pay pay me interest for the tax payer loan too. Interesting that all of the stockholders of GM stock were screwed in this deal and lost tens of millions of dollars.GM vehicles are manufacture by the corrupt UAW union. The UAW forces their members to pay mandatory union dues and gives their dues in the form of political contributions to the Dem Party. Millions of dollars a year.Now many in the Dem Party want to outlaw firearms and ban hunting. They are the same ones behind the introduction of wolves so they can shut down hunting. No deer elk moose- no hunting.How sportsmen can convince themselves this a good thing is beyond my comprehension.http://visiontoamerica.org/21/obama-to-sell-gm-stock-at-huge-loss-to-taxpayers/You must just luv Obumbles and want him re-electedI'll stick with non-union American made Toyotas
Quote from: ribka on April 20, 2011, 12:54:04 PMQuote from: 383man on April 19, 2011, 09:18:16 PMQuote from: ribka on April 19, 2011, 11:46:10 AMQuote from: 383man on April 19, 2011, 11:32:00 AMJust to be clear, I still haven't heard anybody contest the fact that the Chevy trucks in the test videos, have better braking, faster acceleration, firmer frames, less bumper sag, etc... than the fords? just personal preferance talk really...I love how people say "ford doesn't sell the most trucks every year for no reason", no, there's a reason, same reason mcdonalds sells there cheap food more than anybody else, cheap prices. There is however a reason why Silverado is Motor Trend Truck of the Year! Motor Trend ratings lost all credibility with that rating. They rated the Chevy Volt number one too.Of course it had nothing to do with the Obama administration spending billions of our tax dollars bailing them out. The GM auto unions in retrun donated millions of union dues to the Dem party and Obama. GM uses our money to bulid plants in Mexico and China. What a racket! No thanksEvery GM product I have owned has been unreliable.Just had a 2010 chevy work truck crap out with less than 15,000 miles. Transmission is shot. Replaced under warrantyAll my Toyotas have ran over 200,000 miles with only oil changes and brakes replaced. ZERO problems. All bulit here in the US with non Dem laborSee your confused, you are saying that because our tax dollars went into restructuring GM, the Chevy Volt isn't an amazing vehicle, and shouldn't be motor trend car of the year? I could be wrong, but i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say I dought company financing goes into how they choose their winners. and your completely missing the point on the mcdonalds comment, or avoiding it anyways, it's not because they are quality, it's because they're cheap, if you think that mcdonalds makes a quality product, jokes on you. And the fact that you think GM used our money to build plants in mexico and china is cute at best, definately laughable. GM doesn't have factories in china first off, second off, all the parts they build in mexico and send up for assembly have been being built there since way before the bailout, just like ford does, please be informed instead of making up points.So a tax payer funded bail out ( theft) of our money to give to corporations ( Gm) that in trun give them money ( forced union dues) to the corrupt Dem party is a good thing for me as a consumer. Sound slike money laundering to me. They needed a bail -out because they built a crappy product and could not compete on a fiar playing field. The Price Of A Bailout? Every GM Car Sold Will Cost Taxpayers $12,000 Through 2011 www.ntu.orgThe American taxpayer has put up $12,200 for every General Motors vehicle sold through the beginning of 2011, and $7,600 for every Chrysler vehicle sold as well, according to a new report issued by the 362,000-member National Taxpayers Union (NTU).The report, The Auto Bailout - A Taxpayer Quagmire, authored by NTU Adjunct Scholar Thomas D. Hopkins, Professor of Economics at the University of Rochester, does the math on what the government bailout of the auto industry - including General Motors, Chrysler, and GMAC - actually means to American taxpayers, including how much each taxpayer has contributed to the auto industry since December 2008 and how much each vehicle is costing us."Every time someone in your neighborhood drives home in a shiny new Chevy Silverado, remember that it cost American taxpayers more than $12,000," said Pete Sepp, NTU Vice President for Policy and Communications. "Between this and GM's plan to payback their bailout debt with other taxpayer funds, I wonder if all those Americans without work right now could think of any better ways to spend that money. This is a play out of the Bernie Madoff ponzi scheme playbook, and would be the equivalent of paying your Master Card bill with your Visa."The study found that the average American taxpaying family has invested roughly $800 in the auto bailouts so far. Moreover, the study found, the government support poured into General Motors, Chrysler, and GMAC - the financing subsidiary that supports sales at both - now stands at a towering $78.9 billion. Given that figure, and an estimate of how many vehicles GM and Chrysler will sell through the end of 2010, the study finds that each vehicle one of the bailed-out companies sells costs taxpayers $10,700.Finally, breaking down the costs by company, the study reports that every Chrysler vehicle sold costs taxpayers $7,600, and every GM vehicle sold costs taxpayers $12,200.The research is based upon a November study released by the Government Accountability Office (GAO), entitled "Continued Stewardship Needed as Treasury Develops Strategies for Monitoring and Divesting Financial Interests in Chrysler and GM," a follow-up report on the "Troubled Asset Relief Program," as well as statements and reports released from the U.S. Treasury.Additional Findings Include: GMAC receives government guarantees not available to most private firms. Coincidentally, these are the same private firms that are forced to compete with GMAC's taxpayer-assisted bank, Ally Bank. These guarantees save GMAC about $500 million annually in interest costs.During the first ten months of 2009, GM and Chrysler sales fell further than other major auto producers, down 33.4 percent and 38.9 percent, respectively.While the prospect of repayment of GM and Chrysler loans might be expected, after bankruptcy the vast majority of the bailout funds are no longer legal obligations of the newly-structured GM and Chrysler.If Americans are to believe public officials' claims that the government will eventually reprivatize the auto industry, the necessity of a thoughtful exit plan is essential. However, at this time no such plan exists, making it likely that the Treasury will not recover its investment."[T]he bailout has created moral hazard problems, inadvertently handicapping the progress of stronger, non-subsidized producers," Professor Hopkins concluded. "The problems extend beyond just the auto industry, as favored status for one financial company and its bank necessarily complicates prospects for non-subsidized rivals. The time has come to stop such bailouts, and in an orderly way, to seek at least some recovery for taxpayers."You sir, are a wonderful example of a straw man, see The "Straw Man" Fallacyyou did not refute any of my points, all you stated was what everyone already knows, that GM got into trouble, took some help from us, and are working hard at paying it back, the government only owns 26% of GM now down from 61% before, due to them selling back the shares that were bought for the bailout. the remaining 26% will be sold back in the next year when share prices rise enough as to not lose money on them. that being said, what does any of this have to do with our original conversation about the fact that silverado and volt trucks and cars are the motor trend trucks/cars of the year? please re-read my previous post, and respond to the actual conversation, or not at all, it's silly to argue with someone about apples and all their talking about is oranges...
Quote from: 383man on April 19, 2011, 09:18:16 PMQuote from: ribka on April 19, 2011, 11:46:10 AMQuote from: 383man on April 19, 2011, 11:32:00 AMJust to be clear, I still haven't heard anybody contest the fact that the Chevy trucks in the test videos, have better braking, faster acceleration, firmer frames, less bumper sag, etc... than the fords? just personal preferance talk really...I love how people say "ford doesn't sell the most trucks every year for no reason", no, there's a reason, same reason mcdonalds sells there cheap food more than anybody else, cheap prices. There is however a reason why Silverado is Motor Trend Truck of the Year! Motor Trend ratings lost all credibility with that rating. They rated the Chevy Volt number one too.Of course it had nothing to do with the Obama administration spending billions of our tax dollars bailing them out. The GM auto unions in retrun donated millions of union dues to the Dem party and Obama. GM uses our money to bulid plants in Mexico and China. What a racket! No thanksEvery GM product I have owned has been unreliable.Just had a 2010 chevy work truck crap out with less than 15,000 miles. Transmission is shot. Replaced under warrantyAll my Toyotas have ran over 200,000 miles with only oil changes and brakes replaced. ZERO problems. All bulit here in the US with non Dem laborSee your confused, you are saying that because our tax dollars went into restructuring GM, the Chevy Volt isn't an amazing vehicle, and shouldn't be motor trend car of the year? I could be wrong, but i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say I dought company financing goes into how they choose their winners. and your completely missing the point on the mcdonalds comment, or avoiding it anyways, it's not because they are quality, it's because they're cheap, if you think that mcdonalds makes a quality product, jokes on you. And the fact that you think GM used our money to build plants in mexico and china is cute at best, definately laughable. GM doesn't have factories in china first off, second off, all the parts they build in mexico and send up for assembly have been being built there since way before the bailout, just like ford does, please be informed instead of making up points.So a tax payer funded bail out ( theft) of our money to give to corporations ( Gm) that in trun give them money ( forced union dues) to the corrupt Dem party is a good thing for me as a consumer. Sound slike money laundering to me. They needed a bail -out because they built a crappy product and could not compete on a fiar playing field. The Price Of A Bailout? Every GM Car Sold Will Cost Taxpayers $12,000 Through 2011 www.ntu.orgThe American taxpayer has put up $12,200 for every General Motors vehicle sold through the beginning of 2011, and $7,600 for every Chrysler vehicle sold as well, according to a new report issued by the 362,000-member National Taxpayers Union (NTU).The report, The Auto Bailout - A Taxpayer Quagmire, authored by NTU Adjunct Scholar Thomas D. Hopkins, Professor of Economics at the University of Rochester, does the math on what the government bailout of the auto industry - including General Motors, Chrysler, and GMAC - actually means to American taxpayers, including how much each taxpayer has contributed to the auto industry since December 2008 and how much each vehicle is costing us."Every time someone in your neighborhood drives home in a shiny new Chevy Silverado, remember that it cost American taxpayers more than $12,000," said Pete Sepp, NTU Vice President for Policy and Communications. "Between this and GM's plan to payback their bailout debt with other taxpayer funds, I wonder if all those Americans without work right now could think of any better ways to spend that money. This is a play out of the Bernie Madoff ponzi scheme playbook, and would be the equivalent of paying your Master Card bill with your Visa."The study found that the average American taxpaying family has invested roughly $800 in the auto bailouts so far. Moreover, the study found, the government support poured into General Motors, Chrysler, and GMAC - the financing subsidiary that supports sales at both - now stands at a towering $78.9 billion. Given that figure, and an estimate of how many vehicles GM and Chrysler will sell through the end of 2010, the study finds that each vehicle one of the bailed-out companies sells costs taxpayers $10,700.Finally, breaking down the costs by company, the study reports that every Chrysler vehicle sold costs taxpayers $7,600, and every GM vehicle sold costs taxpayers $12,200.The research is based upon a November study released by the Government Accountability Office (GAO), entitled "Continued Stewardship Needed as Treasury Develops Strategies for Monitoring and Divesting Financial Interests in Chrysler and GM," a follow-up report on the "Troubled Asset Relief Program," as well as statements and reports released from the U.S. Treasury.Additional Findings Include: GMAC receives government guarantees not available to most private firms. Coincidentally, these are the same private firms that are forced to compete with GMAC's taxpayer-assisted bank, Ally Bank. These guarantees save GMAC about $500 million annually in interest costs.During the first ten months of 2009, GM and Chrysler sales fell further than other major auto producers, down 33.4 percent and 38.9 percent, respectively.While the prospect of repayment of GM and Chrysler loans might be expected, after bankruptcy the vast majority of the bailout funds are no longer legal obligations of the newly-structured GM and Chrysler.If Americans are to believe public officials' claims that the government will eventually reprivatize the auto industry, the necessity of a thoughtful exit plan is essential. However, at this time no such plan exists, making it likely that the Treasury will not recover its investment."[T]he bailout has created moral hazard problems, inadvertently handicapping the progress of stronger, non-subsidized producers," Professor Hopkins concluded. "The problems extend beyond just the auto industry, as favored status for one financial company and its bank necessarily complicates prospects for non-subsidized rivals. The time has come to stop such bailouts, and in an orderly way, to seek at least some recovery for taxpayers."
Quote from: ribka on April 19, 2011, 11:46:10 AMQuote from: 383man on April 19, 2011, 11:32:00 AMJust to be clear, I still haven't heard anybody contest the fact that the Chevy trucks in the test videos, have better braking, faster acceleration, firmer frames, less bumper sag, etc... than the fords? just personal preferance talk really...I love how people say "ford doesn't sell the most trucks every year for no reason", no, there's a reason, same reason mcdonalds sells there cheap food more than anybody else, cheap prices. There is however a reason why Silverado is Motor Trend Truck of the Year! Motor Trend ratings lost all credibility with that rating. They rated the Chevy Volt number one too.Of course it had nothing to do with the Obama administration spending billions of our tax dollars bailing them out. The GM auto unions in retrun donated millions of union dues to the Dem party and Obama. GM uses our money to bulid plants in Mexico and China. What a racket! No thanksEvery GM product I have owned has been unreliable.Just had a 2010 chevy work truck crap out with less than 15,000 miles. Transmission is shot. Replaced under warrantyAll my Toyotas have ran over 200,000 miles with only oil changes and brakes replaced. ZERO problems. All bulit here in the US with non Dem laborSee your confused, you are saying that because our tax dollars went into restructuring GM, the Chevy Volt isn't an amazing vehicle, and shouldn't be motor trend car of the year? I could be wrong, but i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say I dought company financing goes into how they choose their winners. and your completely missing the point on the mcdonalds comment, or avoiding it anyways, it's not because they are quality, it's because they're cheap, if you think that mcdonalds makes a quality product, jokes on you. And the fact that you think GM used our money to build plants in mexico and china is cute at best, definately laughable. GM doesn't have factories in china first off, second off, all the parts they build in mexico and send up for assembly have been being built there since way before the bailout, just like ford does, please be informed instead of making up points.
Quote from: 383man on April 19, 2011, 11:32:00 AMJust to be clear, I still haven't heard anybody contest the fact that the Chevy trucks in the test videos, have better braking, faster acceleration, firmer frames, less bumper sag, etc... than the fords? just personal preferance talk really...I love how people say "ford doesn't sell the most trucks every year for no reason", no, there's a reason, same reason mcdonalds sells there cheap food more than anybody else, cheap prices. There is however a reason why Silverado is Motor Trend Truck of the Year! Motor Trend ratings lost all credibility with that rating. They rated the Chevy Volt number one too.Of course it had nothing to do with the Obama administration spending billions of our tax dollars bailing them out. The GM auto unions in retrun donated millions of union dues to the Dem party and Obama. GM uses our money to bulid plants in Mexico and China. What a racket! No thanksEvery GM product I have owned has been unreliable.Just had a 2010 chevy work truck crap out with less than 15,000 miles. Transmission is shot. Replaced under warrantyAll my Toyotas have ran over 200,000 miles with only oil changes and brakes replaced. ZERO problems. All bulit here in the US with non Dem labor
Just to be clear, I still haven't heard anybody contest the fact that the Chevy trucks in the test videos, have better braking, faster acceleration, firmer frames, less bumper sag, etc... than the fords? just personal preferance talk really...I love how people say "ford doesn't sell the most trucks every year for no reason", no, there's a reason, same reason mcdonalds sells there cheap food more than anybody else, cheap prices. There is however a reason why Silverado is Motor Trend Truck of the Year!
Quote from: 383man on April 20, 2011, 08:24:55 PMQuote from: ribka on April 20, 2011, 08:06:35 PMQuote from: 383man on April 20, 2011, 07:32:39 PMQuote from: ribka on April 20, 2011, 12:54:04 PMQuote from: 383man on April 19, 2011, 09:18:16 PMQuote from: ribka on April 19, 2011, 11:46:10 AMQuote from: 383man on April 19, 2011, 11:32:00 AMJust to be clear, I still haven't heard anybody contest the fact that the Chevy trucks in the test videos, have better braking, faster acceleration, firmer frames, less bumper sag, etc... than the fords? just personal preferance talk really...I love how people say "ford doesn't sell the most trucks every year for no reason", no, there's a reason, same reason mcdonalds sells there cheap food more than anybody else, cheap prices. There is however a reason why Silverado is Motor Trend Truck of the Year! Motor Trend ratings lost all credibility with that rating. They rated the Chevy Volt number one too.Of course it had nothing to do with the Obama administration spending billions of our tax dollars bailing them out. The GM auto unions in retrun donated millions of union dues to the Dem party and Obama. GM uses our money to bulid plants in Mexico and China. What a racket! No thanksEvery GM product I have owned has been unreliable.Just had a 2010 chevy work truck crap out with less than 15,000 miles. Transmission is shot. Replaced under warrantyAll my Toyotas have ran over 200,000 miles with only oil changes and brakes replaced. ZERO problems. All bulit here in the US with non Dem laborSee your confused, you are saying that because our tax dollars went into restructuring GM, the Chevy Volt isn't an amazing vehicle, and shouldn't be motor trend car of the year? I could be wrong, but i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say I dought company financing goes into how they choose their winners. and your completely missing the point on the mcdonalds comment, or avoiding it anyways, it's not because they are quality, it's because they're cheap, if you think that mcdonalds makes a quality product, jokes on you. And the fact that you think GM used our money to build plants in mexico and china is cute at best, definately laughable. GM doesn't have factories in china first off, second off, all the parts they build in mexico and send up for assembly have been being built there since way before the bailout, just like ford does, please be informed instead of making up points.So a tax payer funded bail out ( theft) of our money to give to corporations ( Gm) that in trun give them money ( forced union dues) to the corrupt Dem party is a good thing for me as a consumer. Sound slike money laundering to me. They needed a bail -out because they built a crappy product and could not compete on a fiar playing field. The Price Of A Bailout? Every GM Car Sold Will Cost Taxpayers $12,000 Through 2011 www.ntu.orgThe American taxpayer has put up $12,200 for every General Motors vehicle sold through the beginning of 2011, and $7,600 for every Chrysler vehicle sold as well, according to a new report issued by the 362,000-member National Taxpayers Union (NTU).The report, The Auto Bailout - A Taxpayer Quagmire, authored by NTU Adjunct Scholar Thomas D. Hopkins, Professor of Economics at the University of Rochester, does the math on what the government bailout of the auto industry - including General Motors, Chrysler, and GMAC - actually means to American taxpayers, including how much each taxpayer has contributed to the auto industry since December 2008 and how much each vehicle is costing us."Every time someone in your neighborhood drives home in a shiny new Chevy Silverado, remember that it cost American taxpayers more than $12,000," said Pete Sepp, NTU Vice President for Policy and Communications. "Between this and GM's plan to payback their bailout debt with other taxpayer funds, I wonder if all those Americans without work right now could think of any better ways to spend that money. This is a play out of the Bernie Madoff ponzi scheme playbook, and would be the equivalent of paying your Master Card bill with your Visa."The study found that the average American taxpaying family has invested roughly $800 in the auto bailouts so far. Moreover, the study found, the government support poured into General Motors, Chrysler, and GMAC - the financing subsidiary that supports sales at both - now stands at a towering $78.9 billion. Given that figure, and an estimate of how many vehicles GM and Chrysler will sell through the end of 2010, the study finds that each vehicle one of the bailed-out companies sells costs taxpayers $10,700.Finally, breaking down the costs by company, the study reports that every Chrysler vehicle sold costs taxpayers $7,600, and every GM vehicle sold costs taxpayers $12,200.The research is based upon a November study released by the Government Accountability Office (GAO), entitled "Continued Stewardship Needed as Treasury Develops Strategies for Monitoring and Divesting Financial Interests in Chrysler and GM," a follow-up report on the "Troubled Asset Relief Program," as well as statements and reports released from the U.S. Treasury.Additional Findings Include: GMAC receives government guarantees not available to most private firms. Coincidentally, these are the same private firms that are forced to compete with GMAC's taxpayer-assisted bank, Ally Bank. These guarantees save GMAC about $500 million annually in interest costs.During the first ten months of 2009, GM and Chrysler sales fell further than other major auto producers, down 33.4 percent and 38.9 percent, respectively.While the prospect of repayment of GM and Chrysler loans might be expected, after bankruptcy the vast majority of the bailout funds are no longer legal obligations of the newly-structured GM and Chrysler.If Americans are to believe public officials' claims that the government will eventually reprivatize the auto industry, the necessity of a thoughtful exit plan is essential. However, at this time no such plan exists, making it likely that the Treasury will not recover its investment."[T]he bailout has created moral hazard problems, inadvertently handicapping the progress of stronger, non-subsidized producers," Professor Hopkins concluded. "The problems extend beyond just the auto industry, as favored status for one financial company and its bank necessarily complicates prospects for non-subsidized rivals. The time has come to stop such bailouts, and in an orderly way, to seek at least some recovery for taxpayers."You sir, are a wonderful example of a straw man, see The "Straw Man" Fallacyyou did not refute any of my points, all you stated was what everyone already knows, that GM got into trouble, took some help from us, and are working hard at paying it back, the government only owns 26% of GM now down from 61% before, due to them selling back the shares that were bought for the bailout. the remaining 26% will be sold back in the next year when share prices rise enough as to not lose money on them. that being said, what does any of this have to do with our original conversation about the fact that silverado and volt trucks and cars are the motor trend trucks/cars of the year? please re-read my previous post, and respond to the actual conversation, or not at all, it's silly to argue with someone about apples and all their talking about is oranges...A Chevy Volt, car of the year, gets less gas milage than my 1981 VW Rabbit and it costs over $40,000. What a scam. Did you buy one?Why was GM bailed out? Because the UAW give sthe Dems million sin union dues each year. Plain and simple truth!!!How a guy can go on a fishing and hunting web site and brag about their GM product is beyond my comprehension.Still waiting for my check from GM. And they need to pay pay me interest for the tax payer loan too. Interesting that all of the stockholders of GM stock were screwed in this deal and lost tens of millions of dollars.GM vehicles are manufacture by the corrupt UAW union. The UAW forces their members to pay mandatory union dues and gives their dues in the form of political contributions to the Dem Party. Millions of dollars a year.Now many in the Dem Party want to outlaw firearms and ban hunting. They are the same ones behind the introduction of wolves so they can shut down hunting. No deer elk moose- no hunting.How sportsmen can convince themselves this a good thing is beyond my comprehension.http://visiontoamerica.org/21/obama-to-sell-gm-stock-at-huge-loss-to-taxpayers/You must just luv Obumbles and want him re-electedI'll stick with non-union American made ToyotasI believe were done here, I am a conservative, I do not like obama, nor do I want him re-elected, but do I hate gm because they are unionized? no, by that logic you hate all teachers because they are unionized, i guess you hate nurses too, get a grip on reality man. and the volt gets 50mpg on straight gas, but the first 40miles is all electric, so really, on a average day, you consume no gas, no I do not own one, but I do think the technology is amazing. your arguments are typical I hate unions banter, I'm not a fan either, but GM isn't benifiting from being a union, if you knew how unions worked you'd know that it cost companies more money when their employees go union, just stop getting it confused, you can get all political if you want, but none of that means anything about the vehicles themselves.I never sad I hated unions. I hate the fact all unions have been co-opted by the Dem Party and are now corrupt. How can one FORCE a free working person to give to a corrupt political party in the US? How is that possible?As soon as you buy a Volt to go hunting get back to me. Where does the electricity from the Volt come from. Magical Obama unicorns?You have to plug it in and electricity comes from mostly coal power now in the US.No one is buying the VolT except he Govt ( Obama) and GE which receives a huge tax credit from us the tax payers to buy them. WHat a scam by GM and Obama!!!In five years the batteries in the Volt are useless."One of the dilemmas facing electric vehicles today is what to do with all the batteries once they’ve been used up. The lithium-ion batteries used in EVs like the 2011 Chevy Volt can become highly toxic as they degrade and can produce more pollution just sitting in a landfill than the worst gas-guzzling car sold today"Obama 2012!!!!!.
You have to plug it in and electricity comes from mostly coal power now in the US.No one is buying the VolT except he Govt ( Obama) and GE which receives a huge tax credit from us the tax payers to buy them. WHat a scam by GM and Obama!!!In five years the batteries in the Volt are useless."One of the dilemmas facing electric vehicles today is what to do with all the batteries once they’ve been used up. The lithium-ion batteries used in EVs like the 2011 Chevy Volt can become highly toxic as they degrade and can produce more pollution just sitting in a landfill than the worst gas-guzzling car sold today"Obama 2012!!!!!.
The reason there are so many Ruger upgrades is because they're necessary.
Chebby and Ford will be the start of the second civil war .... GO FORD!
Quote from: ribka on April 20, 2011, 08:43:32 PMYou have to plug it in and electricity comes from mostly coal power now in the US.No one is buying the VolT except he Govt ( Obama) and GE which receives a huge tax credit from us the tax payers to buy them. WHat a scam by GM and Obama!!!In five years the batteries in the Volt are useless."One of the dilemmas facing electric vehicles today is what to do with all the batteries once they’ve been used up. The lithium-ion batteries used in EVs like the 2011 Chevy Volt can become highly toxic as they degrade and can produce more pollution just sitting in a landfill than the worst gas-guzzling car sold today"Obama 2012!!!!!.This is actually true although completely different than the original argument , it's also my primary argument against hybrid/electric/hydrogen powered cars. Small diesel engine powered cars and light trucks would be far better in all ways than any of those.EDIT: Do you guys know how to edit posts so you don't take up 13 pages with a single post? My scrolling finger is feelin' the burn!
right, skewed, by an accredited non-affiliated agency, looks pretty straight forward and clear to me, sore loser
Quote from: 383man on April 17, 2011, 09:02:31 AMright, skewed, by an accredited non-affiliated agency, looks pretty straight forward and clear to me, sore loser Based upon personal experience GM builds inferior productsThe accredited non-affiliated agencies no longer exist. If they did they could explain why my work vehicle, a 2010 Chevy, tranny blew up at less than 20,000 miles. Another 2009 Chevy Impala at work just blew an engine with less than 40,000 miles. Wow Chevy's are great because Obama tells us so. I worked in a GM plant one Summer in 1981 and I saw a lot of GM workers showing up drunk or high for work. Could not fire union employees. They purposely put parts on backwards so the vehicles rolling off the assembly lines would break down and have to be worked on again. Instant over time for union employees with no concern for public safety. All of our wind power in Washington goes to Kalifornia. A friend lost 30% of her property value because they stuck noisy innefficient a wind turbine right next to her property. She protested them being built next to her house along with all others in Kittitas County But Dem Gov Gregoire over ruled her. If wind power is so wonderful why doesn't Kalifornia build them there?I live on wind and solar power and I can tell you from first hand experience it is not the future.Last Toyota over 200,000 miles and not one cent of tax dollars stolen from me. Toyota gives no money to Obama. GM gives millions of dollars to Obama. Sorry will not buy GM
Go on craigslist...type in diesel 4x4 in the owner section.....lo and behold..there tons of used fords for sale locally compared to chevs! Maybe those guys see the light and wanna unload the scrap? you be the judgehttp://seattle.craigslist.org/search/cto?query=diesel+4x4&srchType=T&minAsk=&maxAsk=
Quote from: Armadillo on April 20, 2011, 10:29:52 PMGo on craigslist...type in diesel 4x4 in the owner section.....lo and behold..there tons of used fords for sale locally compared to chevs! Maybe those guys see the light and wanna unload the scrap? you be the judgehttp://seattle.craigslist.org/search/cto?query=diesel+4x4&srchType=T&minAsk=&maxAsk=That is because Ford made way more diesels than Chevy. Delete the diesel part and just put in 4X4 and a year and it will come up with a pretty equal number. Ford did not have a good gas motor until this model year. No I am not trying to start stuff with V10 owners.