Picture Proof - Wolves chasing Elk

[denali]

  well said

[wolf moderate]

Sorry but I'm blunt.  When I read a bunch of people talking about SSS and whining about hunting dogs dying on the job I can't help it.  Anywho, I spoke my peace, best of luck to you guys in the field.

Thanks.

[Gringo31]

Anywho, I am all for wolves, so long as they are kept "in check". 

Great Wolfmod!  Sounds like you are like most of us and therefore NOT for wolves.

[grundy53]

Sorry but I'm blunt.  When I read a bunch of people talking about SSS and whining about hunting dogs dying on the job I can't help it.  Anywho, I spoke my peace, best of luck to you guys in the field.

Thanks.

If by blunt you mean uninformed and talking out your a$$ then yes, your blunt. Now why don't you go find some different hunters to harass.

[bearpaw]

Wolf mod it sounds to me like you are not a hunter, you sound like an ecoenviro wolf lover who hates people and is trying to portray yourself as a hunter to stir the pot. I think there are too many holes in what you say, you don't have the knowledge of wild that you try to imply. Additionally, a real hunter (as you call them) would not be bashing every other hunter that doesn't hunt exactly as you say is "right". By your standards 90% of the hunters in the country are fat lazy slobs who don't deserve to be able to hunt.

Hello....
Real hunters in my book support each other and expect reasonable management of all species by the agencies. They work together to accomplish these goals and they don't knock everyone else while they try to portray themselves as the only ehtical being of the bush.

I have seen hundreds of cougar, thousands of bear, and tens of thousands of elk and deer, all in person on the mountain, I can assure you that is no exageration and people who know me can verify that. I am hunting 6 months of the year and have seen a fair amount of habitat throughout the west and other areas of the world in my time so I feel I am fairly qualified to comment on which habitats harbor the most wildlife.

Fact:
Some of the best elk habitat in the world is in Utah. Much of it has a maze of roads, cattle grazing, cougar, coyotes, plus gas and oil wells throughout. During hunting season I have looked at over 1200 elk in a single day. That is undisputable proof that road access is not the most significant factor for developing good wildlife habitat and high game numbers. Yes it helps elk to have blocks of a few square miles across for escapement from hunters, but the main reason roads are harmful to elk is only because they give hunters access. If you limit the hunting pressure, then a reasonable amount of roads are not that detrimental and the proof is shown by the many areas in the west that harbor the most wildlife, many are roaded areas.

Fact:
We hunt an alfalfa ranch in Utah that has a few thousand acres, you can drive practically anywhere on the ranch, except the willow thickets along the river, there are over-the-counter tags for bulls, but we limit the kill to 10-12 (6 point) bulls and 30 to 50 cows every year. There is a herd of 200 to 400 elk on the property constantly with workers and cattle running all over the ranch, farm equipment running, and even with that activity the ranch is still a wildlife paradise.

Fact:
The best mule deer and whitetail hunting I have seen is on private ranches in eastern Montana and Wyoming. NE Washington ranches have quite a few deer too. The ranches we hunt have cattle all over and the ranchers drive trucks, atv's, and ride horses all over the ranches year around checking and feeding cattle. They log part of these ranches every year on a 10 to 15 year rotation. In the winter the deer eat with the cattle while the rancher is spreading hay with the tractor. When we hunt these ranches we often see 30+ mature bucks per day while driving all over the ranch like a fat lazy slob hunter would. We road hunt, yep we road hunt them to death like a bunch of fat lazy slobs, but we look at nice bucks day after day and lots of them. I do not allow much hiking because penetrating bedding areas would push some game off the ranch. We see coyotes all the time and there are some bear and cougar as well, we kill coyotes, bear, and cougar when we can to help manage the predator population. With all the roads, motorized vehicles, human disturbances, and shooting of predators, the overall deer, elk, and even the predator numbers are higher than most anywhere else. More proof your theory is flawed. 

Game managers must limit harvest of deer or elk when needed and they must manage predators or all the game numbers will suffer, even the predator numbers will suffer in the end if left unchecked. It's not the roads, its not human interaction, it's not even a problem to shoot some predators, it's the failure of man to manage them all correctly that is the limiting factor for wildlife. Too many predators on the landscape heavily impacts the numbers of other animals and eventually will cause decline of the predators themself from starvation. Hunters do the overall predator population a favor by keeping their numbers in check. 

Fact:
If you want to see the lowest elk and deer populations go to yellowstone, the lolo, or north cascades park where large predator numbers have been unchecked. Predators now leave those places looking for better numbers of prey in human inhabited areas with all the roads and activity.

I have never wanted to see wolves wiped off the face of the earth, but I don't think having wolves in unchecked numbers is too smart. The wolf lovers have actually caused an uprising against wolves by being so forceful against allowing any reasonable management. The wolf lovers have actually caused the wolf population to decrease in areas like the Lolo because they wouldn't allow any management. Now wolves are having to dispurse to new areas to find food and even attack livestock due to the lack of wildlife.

Mt Emily
I know guys who hunt Mt Emily in Oregon and they kill huge elk. Roads and vehicles are irelevent. All F&G managers have to do is limit the amount of hunting season or tags and properly manage predators to control ungulate numbers. Pretty simple until wolf lovers or cougar lovers get involved and prevent proper management. Finally Oregon is waking up and going to manage their insane cougar population. If there are areas in Mt Emily that need help, killing a few cats will likely help.

Washington and Oregon can probably sustain 50 to 100 wolves each without significant impacts, but the wolf lovers will prevent reasonable management, wolf numbers will rise like they did in Idaho, ungulates, livestock, and pets will pay the price of improper management, and eventually people will revolt against wolves just like they have in Idaho and Montana. 

Wilderness
Washington has about 20 wilderness areas. Just how many do we need to make some of you guys happy. I am still able to get into these areas but I know eventually I will not be able to hike the mountains like I used to. What about all our senoirs and our disabled friends, by your standards they don't deserve to hunt or get into the mountains. Most of them have to drive to where they hunt and many have permits to shoot from within the vehicle. I guess they are fat lazy slobs who don't deserve to hunt. 

More wilderness means less access to all of those folks and to most Americans. If there are 20 wilderness areas in WA, just how many tens of millions of acres of wilderness is there in the west? How much wilderness do you guys need? My goodness do you have any sense of reality? 

Apologies to everyone for the rant and for sounding so arrogant, but my button was pushed pretty hard and I felt the need to offer a few real facts about where many of the best wildlife numbers really do exist, right on heavily roaded ranches and mountain areas with oil and gas drilling, cattle grazing, atv's, tractors, predator hunting, and all kinds of human activity.      

[buckhorn2]

Dale it might have been a rant but it sounded pretty damn good to me.

[MuleySniper]

 

[MuleySniper]

 
I actually saw this same sign hanging on a cable across a logging road in the blues.
MS

[Machias]

AMEN Dale!!!!!!!!!!

[mulehunter]

Wolfmod,  if u spend lot time support wolf. And ur group earn $4.2 billion.  We never get any return for all loss of our tradation hunting, THANK YOU for taking money and not care any much about our history. We grew up from family bloods from many many years ago and we hunt to eat and live.  We know what best for our future and children.
past 1930's. Old time, we all know what best and right for our future about wolves. We already explain and explain. We never want ur money but ur people as EG only want money and investment on Wolves busniess to kill everything what's in wood.   
people lost their animals to wolves. We lost two dogs to wolves pack and no other word to explain. TRUST ME.
I do forgive u if u support ur wolf who ate our dogs. But I will NOT FORGIVE THOSE WOLF FOR WHAT THEY DID TO US. People like u only look one way. (MONEY AND POWER) and not care any much for whole loss elk and other animals that wolves have killed.   

Mulehunter.

[bearpaw]

First of all, the deal was for 100 wolves in 3 states, agreed upon by all sides.

Next, The amount of meat a wolf eats each year can vary. During a study in Yellowstone Park, 24 wolves were observed for 1 month in 1997 and 57 wolves were observed for 1 month in 1998. A total of 81 wolves were observed for a one month period and 114 kills were observed. This included 106 elk, 6 moose, 1 mule deer, and 1 bison. The average kill rate was 1.4 elk per wolf per month. That study indicates that 1 wolf will eat  17 elk per year. It would require 44 deer to equal the same body mass as 17 elk. So at that rate, 100 wolves will eat about 1700 elk or 4400 deer per year, but 500 wolves will eat about 8,500 elk or 22,000 deer per year...(USGS Study)  http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/severity/results.htm#table1

500 wolves is too many for Idaho..... 

[wolf moderate]

The study was conducted during late March/early April, when elk are arguably at there most vulnerable.  It would be interesting to see numbers of successful elk kills by wolves in June-August.  I would guess that it's much lower than the 1.4/mth/wolf.  Really it doesn't matter though.  8500 elk isn't  even 10% of the state population so it's not too big of a deal anyway.  Have fun "hunting" those private ranches.  You should bring some of the disabled folk w/ you.  Personally I like road hunters (keeps them outta the woods), but they do put hunters in a bad light.  Oh well. 

While hunting mule deer out of Maupin, Oregon, my brother and I accidentally hiked onto a private ranch. It was awesome.  Saw 8 monster mullies and I shot a decent 4 pointer there.  unfortunately we came back the next day to fill my brother's tag and the land owner was there while my brother was about to shoot a wall hanger buck lol.  He threatened to have us arrested.  Luckily my military ID helped get out of that situation.  Not really hunting though, more paying to shoot.  It was along the Deschutes river with tasty alfalfa fields nearby that the deer could not resist 

[wsucowboy]

For starters wolfmod. You would get a lot further with people if you didn't come on here with your first few post and accuse us of being a bunch of moronic fat road hunters. Also Washington is as bad as California. That's why we are so worried.

Some of us are fat non road hunters you know! 

[Little Dave]

We need sportsmen that care more about the wildlife than their hunting opportunity.  We need people that recoginize wildlife and wild places as being the source of thier enjoyment, not just hunting. 

Don't get me wrong- I love the hunt and I love to pursue- I just feel like too many folks care more about thier ability to go out for a weekend and have a blast shooting at animals- more than they care about knowing that the animals are there.   

I see what you mean.  I don't agree.  Consider the converse of your argument which might be something like this:

We already have people that recoginize wildlife and wild places as being the source of thier enjoyment, hikers, campers, bird watchers.  Every year they have the opportunity to pay into the system that supports habitat buy purchasing lots of hunting gear, a deer tag, a duck stamp, a small game license, or a RMEF membership.  Generally they don't.  Generally, they think that they pay into the general fund and that's good enough.  Are they lousy people?  Not really, saving money is just a higher priority for them.

It's hard to figure hunters.  Some go for meat, some go for the kill, some go for the experience, some go to mentor, some go to just get away, tradition, lifestyle, a memory, hundreds of reasons.  We're all sportsmen no matter our reason for being out there or the way we hunt.  That's the emotional side of this and there's no figuring emotion.

So setting aside emotion, what's left is the economics.  Saving money is also in the interest of hunters, the hunter scouts for game and goes there.  It's always been that way.  If the game is not in Washington, he doesn't hunt Washington, it wouldn't make sense.  His money goes where he goes.  For lack of opportunity a hunter can enjoy what remains of the wildlife and wild places without paying into the system just like everybody else.

If the wolves move in and reduce opportunity, revenue dries up, the biologists learn to make fries and flip burgers.  It really is that simple.  Better have a lot of deer and elk available before the wolves move in.

[jackmaster]

Sorry but I'm blunt.  When I read a bunch of people talking about SSS and whining about hunting dogs dying on the job I can't help it.  Anywho, I spoke my peace, best of luck to you guys in the field.

Thanks.

do you have any idea what its like to have one of your hounds get killed, i doubt you have ever owned hounds, otherwise you wouldnt be making such STUPID REMARKS, sorry wolf mod fella but you kinda make me sick to my stomach,you dont have a fricken clue about what it takes to run dogs, it isnt exceptable for a dog to get killed while running his quarry and its my fault for putting them in a bad situation, so therefore i will protect them as i would my kids, so do think it would be ok if your bird dog gets picked off by a wolf???