talked to a biologist today who said we need wolves

[Curly]

We need to let the game biologists manage the animals scientifically.  Cattlemen, timber companies, P.E.T.A., H.S.U.S., A.L.F. and all the other special interest groups have their agendas and get in the way of proper wildlife management.  Predator/prey numbers will find equilibrium. 
So I am not misunderstood, I look forward to hunting wolves when their numbers are stable. Wolves are neither good nor are they bad, they are predators, like coyotes, cougars and us.  Don't let doom and gloom scenarios carry the day.

Problem is that a lot of the biologists have an agenda too.  A lot of them flat out lie.........that, or they were told lies by their college professors and are simply repeating what they believe to be correct.  That is what I believe based on reading a variety of sources anyway. 

[runamuk]

We need to let the game biologists manage the animals scientifically.  Cattlemen, timber companies, P.E.T.A., H.S.U.S., A.L.F. and all the other special interest groups have their agendas and get in the way of proper wildlife management.  Predator/prey numbers will find equilibrium. 
So I am not misunderstood, I look forward to hunting wolves when their numbers are stable. Wolves are neither good nor are they bad, they are predators, like coyotes, cougars and us.  Don't let doom and gloom scenarios carry the day.

I'm not sure how you can slap cattlemen in the face like that and lump them in with likes of P.E.T.A..  They don't have an agenda, they have a livelihood.  Big difference partner

cattlemen can be as self serving as any other group  ....I wouldnt toss them in with peta but the cattlemens association does fall into that realm as a special interest group. 

Again its somewhere in the middle that the answers lie unfortunately in this world only the loud, rich, special interests get listened to and when they wont be heard then they sue and tie up all parties abilities to do much of anything in any direction.

Wolves need to be managed cattlemen and sheepherders and small farms need to be allowed to protect themselves from ALL predators in the act of doing harm.  Hunters should be utilized to help manage wolves otherwise the wolves will have nothing keeping them in check... if we are gonna have wolves we need sound science and management goals that are realistic not based on some disney ideal OR based on some abolitionist ideal. 

I do find it funny how often schools and education are blamed for all our problems and on this same sight people promote getting an education to get ahead in life...so wghich is it schools are evil or school is the answer or again could it be somewhere in the middle?

[CedarPants]

Run - I agree with you.  My main point was that while they are a special interest group, they aren't and never will be of the likes of P.E.T.A. 

You raise an intereting point as well on the education side of things.  My personal opinion - witnessed first hand by yours truly while attending E.W.U ..... school and education in general are of course a good thing and are not to blame.  However, you are going to find professors here and there with a big time agenda that push it on all of their students.

When I was at Eastern the bear baiting issue was on the ballot.  A certain professor I had based almost an entire quarter of a literature classed focused on wildlife and environmental topics and saw to it that every one of his students voted on the issue.  The majority of them had never even given it a second thought, but 2 weeks later approximately 500 of them voted against it.

[spookgus]

The other thing he said, that seemed odd to me, was the elk moved in to more remote areas when the wolves showed up... I don't understand that one....
[/quote]

The elk in Idaho have just moved to such a remote area that nobody can find them.

[mulehunter]

http://m.missoulian.com/news/local/article_d7856492-c4e1-11e0-a667-001cc4c03286.html

I wonder what's like when its out of control over here.


Mulehunter.

[denali]

It will take some time..... in the end it will be just like coyotes ...buy a license and shoot on site.           NOT a S.S.S         a reality check         PM me if you dis agree.

[SCRUBS]

Well elkontherun, did you get an elk last week or not? Inquiring minds want to know

[brackens]

We already have hoof disease in SW Washington.  My  is that native Wolves should be managedt and for sure not introduced in any way.  If they naturally come down from Canada, then have a season just like all other predators.  You will not eradicate Wolves in the North Cascades or Ferry County.  Too much space too little people.

a little talk with a biologist and I learned that wolves make elk pack in larger herds. My immediate question was what about a disease that breaks out... say like hoof rot that is in Montana... his answer... We don't know yet... I asked what happens when wolves decide people are fat, slow and tasty. His answer, wolves don't eat people, those a hybrid animals that do that.... but on further questioning... I found out that he is a "wolf" biologist....

now, not to pick on anyone... if ones job depends on something... what is the chance they will make sure that something stays around....
  after inflation.

[woodswalker]

We need to let the game biologists manage the animals scientifically.  Cattlemen, timber companies, P.E.T.A., H.S.U.S., A.L.F. and all the other special interest groups have their agendas and get in the way of proper wildlife management.  Predator/prey numbers will find equilibrium. 
So I am not misunderstood, I look forward to hunting wolves when their numbers are stable. Wolves are neither good nor are they bad, they are predators, like coyotes, cougars and us.  Don't let doom and gloom scenarios carry the day.

Greyson, the problem is when you get activist biologists who take sides.  Its less damaging when they take the game's side and much more so when they take the wolve's side but its biased in either case.  The bio has to be neutral and take all sides concerns in a scientific and documentable manner (some sides have more documentable data than others - nuff said) and balance the WHOLE of the picture...including who has been PAYING for things and what they have been paying for...otherwise it gets into an illegal TAKING under color of law (IMNSHO).

We DO NOT HAVE NEUTRAL BIOS.

[twistiron]

its sad that the bios are playing politics game vice looking at the scientific evidence but it seams they know who is in power and who paying them! with that being said, i agree with managing all game in a scientific manner and all organizations and clubs should be exempt however exemptions must be made for self defense and protection of livlyhood. no farmer should have to face increased struggles because of a new predator. i really want to see the field data that is being collected by our bios to see if the data is jaded or the eyes interperting it are askew.

[huntinguy]

The other thing he said, that seemed odd to me, was the elk moved in to more remote areas when the wolves showed up... I don't understand that one....

The elk in Idaho have just moved to such a remote area that nobody can find them.
[/quote]

I have a friend in Idaho, he did get his elk last  year, nice one too. Year before he didn't see one at all, and believe me this guy is an elk magnet.... He said the one he got last year was the only one he saw after a week busting brush.

He did tell me though that a camp up from him had their elk taken right out of camp by wolves. Came right in and tore the meat up and drug it off.

Me thinks there are too many bold wolves around.... 

[DOUBLELUNG]

The game biologists do manage the game herds scientifically.  Science dictates that at a minimum, we need a genetically viable population (generally, 100-500 animals is all).  Science dictates at a maximum, biological carrying capacity is the upper limit, the most animals the habitat can physically support. 
 
Where they are managed between the extremes is social, not biological.  Political and economic factors influence the social tolerance.  At carrying capacity, there are too many vehicle collisions, too much agricultural damage, nuisance animals in urban environments, etc.  The upper limit then becomes the social tolerance capacity, which varies widely between different social and economic interests. 
 
Most hunters want herds as high as possible, unless their livelihood is also impacted (a forester or farmer may love to hunt, but has limited tolerance for depredation).  People who have lost loved ones, or suffered great economic hardship (destroyed vehicle, disability, trashed landscaping, lost pets/livestock, etc.) are much less tolerant. 
 
Scientific wildlife management is easy.  It's the social management that is tough. 

[elkontherun]

The kid did get his elk opening day at 535 the first clearcut we came to. 25 yards off the road one shot to the head and his elk season was over.

[Curly]

The kid did get his elk opening day at 535 the first clearcut we came to. 25 yards off the road one shot to the head and his elk season was over.

Congrats.

Too bad the season was so short and the pack out was so long.......  

[twistiron]

The game biologists do manage the game herds scientifically.  Science dictates that at a minimum, we need a genetically viable population (generally, 100-500 animals is all).  Science dictates at a maximum, biological carrying capacity is the upper limit, the most animals the habitat can physically support. 
 
Where they are managed between the extremes is social, not biological.  Political and economic factors influence the social tolerance.  At carrying capacity, there are too many vehicle collisions, too much agricultural damage, nuisance animals in urban environments, etc.  The upper limit then becomes the social tolerance capacity, which varies widely between different social and economic interests. 
 
Most hunters want herds as high as possible, unless their livelihood is also impacted (a forester or farmer may love to hunt, but has limited tolerance for depredation).  People who have lost loved ones, or suffered great economic hardship (destroyed vehicle, disability, trashed landscaping, lost pets/livestock, etc.) are much less tolerant. 
 
Scientific wildlife management is easy.  It's the social management that is tough.

well put, with that being said there is alot of room for social management when your suggested pop. runs from 100-500 animals( just using throwing out numbers) if we know hunter harvest and general prey pops., size of available range, range required per pack, estimated pack growth ect. then it should not be hard based on data being collected in other states and currently in ours to narrow the suggested pop. down to 200-300. leaving much less room for social managment options. i think we should also get a hunting season started, to maintain a stable slowly exspanding (to sustainable level) wolf pop. vice an exploding one like idaho. this will also slow the pressure of wolves on elk giving them a chance to adapt there habits to having another predator.