Moral Dilema...

[popeshawnpaul]

I am in kind of a moral dilema and thought I may get some opinions from some of you that have hunting dogs and aren't anthropomorphistic. 

I have a 6.5 year old Llewelyn English Setter.  She is a great hunting dog.  If you know the tv hunting show, "Hunting With Hank" then you know what type of dog she is.  I think Hank is her cousin and she is Dash's sister...?  A great grouse dog.  She keeps close and can find the grouse in the thickest stuff.  She'll find the bird but doesn't like to bring it just hand it over to me.  I'm decided early on I wasn't going to force train retrieve when I can walk my lazy ass over and pick up the bird she has found.  Her mother and father lived 9 years each.

A couple days ago she was hesitant to jump out of the truck after our vacation and then she saw a bird in the yard.  She went on point in the truck and I tapped her on the top of the head indicating that she can go for the bird.  She jumped out lightnigh quick and when she landed she just folded in pain.  Her rear legs were obviously paralyzed.  I saw some tiny movement in the legs and tail so I thought there may be hope, but was prepared to put her down.  Turns out she had FCE or a bloot clot that prevents blood from going to a portion of her spinal cord.  Although there is initial pain, she is in no pain now but has no use of her rear legs.  Many dogs recover and walk and even run, but most have debilitating effects.  Most never come back as strong as before.  Many have to wear a cart and wheels and never regain use of their hind legs.

So my issue.  The vets can't understand why I wouldn't want to let her live in a cart and wheels if it came to that.  I am of the feeling that if she can't walk or run again, I'm going to put her down.  It's a shame to see an athletic hunting dog in a cart and wheels.  She would never be able to go after birds or anything.  I'm not sure I can handle that.  My plan is to give her a few weeks to see if she can learn to walk again.  I am told after 7-14 days you know how much they can recover.  I'm really debating with my wife right now on what to do.  If she can walk but not run?  Barely gets around?  Needs a cart and wheels?  I'm of the opinion if she can't get back to being able to run, I'm going to put her down.  I don't expect her to be lightning quick like before, I can live with that.  So you guys with bird dogs, what would you do?  I'm kind of morally lost on this one.

Sadie:

[cohoho]

Too bad to hear all that, especially a good looking dog like that.  Tough choice, but a dog on a cart is not a life either..

[DeKuma]

You have to use your own judgement on this one Pope.  You know your dig best.
I am of the opinion that I would do whatever it took to keep her.  The life may change, but that does not mean the quality is any less.  My neibor has a lab that had to have her leg removed.  He was worried about it, like you.  She is amazing and still runs and retireves to her best ability.  She does not look unhappy in the least.  Just does it a littel different.
I have seen dogs with the crat and wheels still run and gun, just different than before.
If she is a memeber of your family, you do what you have to do.  I know you will make the decision that is best for you and your dog, whatever you choose.

[boneaddict]

Really sorry to hear about that Shawn.   This is an extremely personal issue, but I suppose you asked what we would do.  If I put myself in your shoes an d her being my dog, I would put her down.  In fact its not just words as I have done that sort of thing.  I also did it myslef.  It is one of the hardest things a man can do, but I hugged her, looked her in the eyes and put her down myself.  You won't feel right for awhile I suppose, and there are those that think that is inhumane and against the law and blah blah.  I just didn't feel right about taking her to a stranger and letting him do it.  It is wild west at my home.   Good luck with your decision.  You'll make the right one and it will be one of the hardest, and I don't even pretend to be a big animal lover. 

[WDFW-SUX]

Sorry about your dog I've had to put my horse down before and it sucks............If the animal cant live and enjoy any quality of life its time to let them go. I think thats our responsibility as good pet owners.

[DOUBLELUNG]

I've had to have two labs put down, both due to cancer.  My male was in so much pain, it was easy, even though he was only 4.  His 1/2 sister was 11, her cancer had metzed, and we decided against treating it.  When she was starting to act pained, the vet came to the house and administered the euthanasia.  In both cases, I held my dogs until they died, and I'm tearing up as I type this.  It is heart-wrenching.  I also have put a bullet in the brain of a lab that was run over by the truck in front of me, she was screaming in pain and fear, and her injuries were terminal.  I pulled her off to the shoulder and left.  

I can't make a recommendation.  If I thought she would be happy and not in pain, I wouldn't rule out the cart.  There is no wrong decision, just the one that is best for you, your dog and your family.  My heart's with you, whatever you decide.

[Intruder]

That really sucks... I'm truly sorry to hear that!!

As people have said it really comes down to what you feel is best.  Certainly hard to argue right or wrong.  My take on it were it my dog is that I would decide based on as many objective things as I can.  Things like: Dogs age, is she in pain or not, cost, and her quality of life as well as yours.  I don't think I'd put my dog down based soley on he couldn't run/hunt anymore.  As far as the whole cart thing.... I just don't know.  I know my wife would lobby for that big time.     

[Smokepole]

Hey, Pope.  Sorry to hear about your pup.  Hope it all turns out okay for the dog.

I feel pretty strongly about this topic, because I have a 13 year-old crippled up chocolate lab.  In her day she was a birding machine, related to Superchief, and a real good student.

She took lame when she was about two, with arthritis in her hocks pretty bad.  We put her on all kinds of medicine, including aspirin.  We love the dog so much, we didn't want to put her down, unless it was the right thing for her.

You can tell a lot by a dog's mood.  If they're really hurting and unhappy, they'll turn mean on you.  They won't have the same personality.  Then, in my mind, it's time to help them out of their pain.

My dog is so crippled now, she can hardly make it out to the restroom -- but, you know, sometimes I gimp around pretty bad too.  She's had a lot of good hunts, and good memories, and I get the duck call out now and then and get her all fired up in the living room by the fire.  I'll bring her in some duck wings once in a while, just so she can get a good sniff.

So it came to this... I decided that as long as our old dog could wag her tail, and demonstrate an inkling of happiness, then there's got to be something inside that needs to live.  Sure, she's stoved up tight as a drum, but the dog keeps smiling and wagging every time we treat her to a biscuit, or give her some kind words.

I hope your dog isn't done hunting, but if she is, maybe she can get around enough to get by.  In that case you should do everything you can to help her enjoy the rest of the journey.

Good luck!

[ICEMAN]

Having laid my beloved dog of 18+ years down in February, I understand the decision making process you are going thru now.

It would be far different if this happened to a 6 month old dog you just got to know, or maybe a two year old you just took off a friend. Your connection to the dog will be one of your guiding lights. I have put down a few cats over the years, with one of them it was like; "come here...your next....", not much attachment to that one. My point is, how well do you know the dog. Does she know you? Will you even be able to understand how she feels or reacts to life spent on a helper dolly? Are you even able to commit the amount of time necessary to care for her in this way? These are the cold hard items to consider. Money. Time. Physical Surrounding. Time Committment. It will be a bothersome change to your life. Is your home situated to allow for this type of care?

Heaven knows you love her. She knows it, you know it. That is not the issue here. In my opinion, the issue is, or will be; Are the both of you happy with the new way? If she is not doing well with the change, it will be a far easier decision for you,...she will have made the decision....  If you are not happy though, it puts you into the position of thinking that; if you lay her down, it gives the appearance that you are shallow, or cold hearted. This is not accurate.  I think that making the decision to lay her down, for whatever reason, will be yours, and not for anyone else to second guess. I do not think it would be selfish to lay her down if you do not feel that you are going to be able to commit all that is necessary to make her comfy for the next 10 years....

Many times as my dog aged and approached the day where I decided to lay him down, many times I wished to myself that he just go in his sleep. It would be so much easier that way. I sometimes feel ashamed for thinking that, but that is the truth.

In your case, it looks like you will be forced into making the tough decision.

[tlbradford]

If it happened to my dog, and he had no pain, I might give the cart and wheels a try.  If it meant that they became a family dog and were just in the yard with the kids, but appeared happy, I would keep them.  If the dog was miserable from its change of lifestyle, I would not hesitate to put it down.  Seeing a working dog crippled like that may be tougher on the owner than the dog, but you know her personality bette than anyone else.  I do not view my dogs as a family member.  There is a clear distinction between a pet and a child in my house and that was how I was raised. I love animals as much as anyone else, and I believe they are to be treated with kindness, and as much attention as possible.  I have had to put down two dogs in my lifetime and I cried like a baby.  I did one myself when she became blind and arthritic.  I will take my current dog to our favorite pheasant spot when it is his time.  I look at it as my responsibilty and believe that my dog would want it to be that way as well.

[Shannon]

I know your pain. I have a 13 year old lab that is deaf and going blind and hips have been shot since he was 2 years old. Everyday I come home I drive by him in the driveway and he doesn't lift his head because he is deaf and I look to see if he is breathing. I hope he goes on his own and I don't have to make the decision you are going to have to make. On the other hand, if he couldn't walk  I would put him down without hesitation. I think of it if I was in there shoes. If I was paralized I would want someone to put me out of my misery. I will do the favor to my dogs before I put them in a cart. My mother-in-law had a dog in a cart and it was so pathetic to watch I vowed I would never let my dogs go through that. Just my two cents. Good Luck with your decision no matter what it is.

[MountainWalk]

that my friend, is something every person has to figure out for himself. its a very personal issue.

[Ridgerunner]

my dog, and he had no pain, I might give the cart and wheels a try.  If it meant that they became a family dog and were just in the yard with the kids, but appeared happy, I would keep them.  If the dog was miserable from its change of lifestyle, I would not hesitate to put it down.  Seeing a working dog crippled like that may be tougher on the owner than the dog, but you know her personality bette than anyone else.

Makes sense to me, she may not be as good of hunting companion but she could still be good for something.  Tough choice,

[chukar-ridge-quest]

Just want to say sorry brother.  It's the hardest choice to make. Dogs can't say "I'm feeling OK.", it's the opposite. They may be in a great deal of pain but they always want to please. It takes big shoulders to make the decision, which ever one it is. 

My best to you and our dog.

CRQ

[high country]

have you had a consult with a board certified surgon, or just a general vet................there is a HUGE difference. my wife works in a surgical practice and the things they do are utterly amazing. I would get her on here right now for an opinion, but she is still in montana...........good luck.

[bobcat]

I wouldn't feel right about my dog only being able to get around with a wheel attached. Just doesn't seem right and I don't think the dog would be happy either. If it were me I'd put the dog down. Sad, but I think the other option is sadder.

[MountainWalk]

after some thought,, i would not put the dog down. it may seem weird or foreign, but the dog prolly doesnt have some compunction about having wheels, and would prolly just learn to cope with it. animals are cool because they can adapt so easily to what humans think is a done deal. i just figured, that if it came down to me being shot or being in a wheel chair, id take the chair.. dogs dont feel sorry for their selves or situations. if they are near folks who love thm and care for them, thats all they ask

[Head-shot]

have you had a consult with a board certified surgon, or just a general vet................there is a HUGE difference. my wife works in a surgical practice and the things they do are utterly amazing. I would get her on here right now for an opinion, but she is still in montana...........good luck.

That would be my suggestion as well. My folks had a couple dogs with arthritis and hip displasia. The local vet said there was nothing to be done, but they found a specialist somewhere that fixed the hips and did something to the arthritis that allowed the dog about 7 more years. I'm sure it was spendy but when it comes to a member of the family, the money can always be made again. Maybe rent a sling/wheelchair type thing if needed short term and get her to the people Highcountry suggested.

Good luck.

[popeshawnpaul]

I appreciate all the opinions, and I did want them because all I was getting from the vets and everyone was put her in wheels.  I was beginning to think I was crazy.  The problem with the wheels is they urinate/deficate on themselves and it is very messy and time consuming.  Not sure I'm up for that...

I took her home yesterday.  Turns out she had a blood clot in the spine and there isn't any surgery she needs.  Time will tell if she can recover.  She has improved over the last three days.  she is still partially paralyzed, but can move her back legs and tail a bit.  She can almost walk on the left leg but it's too weak at this point.  I have to take her out to go potty and do rehab with her 4-5 times a day.  My plan is to give her 2-3 weeks and see how she does.  If she can't walk on her own, my thought is to put her down.  If she can walk on her own, then I have a good house pet.  If she can regain her strength enough to run again, we are going grouse hunting in September.  She really has to reteach herself to walk again.  The brain doesn't tell the legs how to move.  I can tell she is frustrated but it is not painful.  She is in absolutely no pain.  So, it's hard work re-habbing her and I'll let you guys know how it is progressing. 

(p.s. - This is a personal subject.  I don't usually care to share personal stuff but I was very confused as I have never been in a situation like this and began to doubt what I was thinking.  It's good to get a few opinions.)

[boneaddict]

I Appreciate your openess with this matter and good thoughts everyone.  You are doing exactly what I would do at this point.  Good luck with her.

[jackelope]

my dog has a strained left rear cruciate cardial ligament and will need a surgery at some point to be fixed so i was told. every once in a while i can tell he's hurting, so i take him out to pee on a leash and don't let him run or use the stairs. this usually lasts a day or 2 then he is fine, back to normal for another few weeks or month or 2, then he is sore for a day or 2...blah blah blah. the limits i have to put on him and the little bit extra i have to do is time consuming  but i can't imagine what you're going through pope. i didn't really feel like commenting on this earlier but feel like you are making the right decision. you have a wife and little one who presumably love that dog very much too, and if she can't be a hunting dog but can live a happy life and make you and yours happy, then it is what it is....good call.

[bucklucky]

Just curiouse if your Vet does any natural cure stuff with herbs and what not? My wife is  a Vet Tech and works at Scattercreek Vet clinic in Rochester. They do alot of herb type stuff that may help with your dog having a better chance at regaining the use of its legs. I use some things for incontinance that worked great, maybee there is a Local Vet up there that will try the herbal stuff? Could help. Good luck.

[jackelope]

i will second what charlie said for what it's worth. pope there's a great holistic vet in redmond if you want some info let me know.  i went on a recommendation from my hippie dad in NY and it worked out well. my dog is on some holistic meds daily.

[Intruder]

Keep us posted.... I'm sure hopin for the best for you, your family and the pooch!

[GoldTip]

Pope, I would be following the same track you are on right now if I were in your position.  But yeah, if she can't learn to even walk again, I'd probably put her down as well if it were my buddy Gage.  If it were my dog, seeing him in a cart with wheels would be more than I or he could stand I am sure.  Hope you at least end up with a house pet, that I could tolerate as well.

[bucklucky]

Hey Pope, just curiouse as to what your dogs diet is? My wife and the Vet are looking into this to maybee find some different answers for ya. Never know what they may come up with.

[PacificNWhunter]

Man Pope, sorry to hear about your pup. Wish I had some advise for you. I was faced with a similar problem about 2 years ago. Gunner jumped off a retaining wall chasing another dog landed only to crumple up and start whining. Scooped him up and took him to the vet for X-ray. Come to find out he compressed a disk in his back and lost control of his back legs, they told me I could pay the 4500 bucks to have a surgery that may or may not work or wait a week or two to see if he would pull out of it. I had a million thoughts going through my head on what to do. I have had him since I was 16 and he is my best pal, all the sudden I'm having to basically play god. I decided to take him home and after about 3 days of holding him up to use the bathroom and eat, he started to gain a little sensation back into his back legs. About 2 weeks later he was able to stand and eventually was able to walk and now can run. He can't however jump into the truck or hunt for more then 2 hours or so before getting really sore. Personally I don't think I could have watched him live paralyzed and not be able to do what he loved to do. But it's a hard choice either way. Hope she gets better soon! Keep up posted.

[popeshawnpaul]

That's exactly the situation I was in PacificNWhunter.  Everyone thought I was crazy for not doing the $5200 back surgery that it turns out he didn't need because in my case it was a blood clot.  You did exactly what I am doing and I hope my dog recovers as much as yours...

It's nice to know other hunting dog owners have gone through this.  It's also nice to know I'm not crazy for making the decisions I have made thus far and that it is reasonable and rational to see if your dog can heal itself.  My purpose for this thread was not to garner sympathy, but rather to see if others with hunting dogs have had to make these tough decisions and whether the basis for my decisions are rooted in rational thought.  Thanks everyone.

[DeKuma]

It is not just hunting dog owners who have been faced with this decision.  As I said before, I have faith you will make the best choice possible for you and your dog, and no matter what that is, no one has a right to fault you.  You know the dog best, and yourself best.

I am pulling for you man!

[Intruder]

My purpose for this thread was not to garner sympathy, but rather to see if others with hunting dogs have had to make these tough decisions and whether the basis for my decisions are rooted in rational thought.  Thanks everyone.

Faced a similiar deal w/ my dog 5 years ago.  He was 7 1/2 and diagnosed w/ cancer.  WSU, as I'm sure you're aware, has a great vet school so we decided to try chemo.  It was pricey but it seem like a reasonable choice based on his age, etc.  It ended up buying him almost a year.  If he would have been 10 or more years old I probably wouldn't have done it.  Access to top vet help was also a factor.  Always alot to consider in the end.  It's amazing though, cuz you'll know when it's time to say goodbye.  Trust your instincts.   

[Bigshooter]

A friend of my dad had the same problem with his lab.  It wasn't able to get around for about a month.  One day my dad was at his friends house with his female wire hair that was in heat.  The lab was a uncut male.  After about an hour of the lab dry humping the ground he finally got up and started chasing my dads dog around.  He has been fine ever since.  I am not making this up.  So your dog might have a chance.  I would maybe load her up grab your shot gun a take her out like you are going hunting and see what she does.

[bwana]

Hi. This is "Buck Lucky's" wife, Kelley.  Just curious as to how things are going with Sadie, if you have looked into any other options.  There is a holistic veterinarian in Bellevue, Dr. Tejinder Sodhi at the Animal Wellness Center (425)455-8900 if your interested. 

[popeshawnpaul]

I was thinking of taking her to a few veterinarians like this, but quite frankly her progress has been remarkable.  I brought her home on Sunday and she couldn't walk or stand.  I taught her to stand on Monday and got her to take a step or two.  When i got home from work on Tuesday, she was so excited to see me she wagged her tail...I was in awe.  That night I got her to take a few steps in a row on her own.  Yesterday she was walking around feabily on her own.  She could generally go about 20-30 yards before falling over or giving up.  She gets real tired when she walks, but I'm pushing her to rehab hard.  Yesterday I actually got her to gallup/slow run with me for a 20 yard stretch and for the most part was placing the pad of her paw down instead of her knuckle.  Her urination control is back as well.

At this point my only concern is that if she twists a bit wrong she will yelp in pain.  I have her on anti-inflamatory pain killers and pain medication.  I'm going to take her out for another long rehab walk/run tonight.  I'm really ecstatic and at this point I think her recovery is up to her.  I'm a bit concerned about her yelping when turning wrong but figure it must be related to the inflamation in her back from the blood clot.  I must say I was very disenchanted with some of the vets that I took her to.  Besides making us feel morally like bad people they recommended treatment that wasn't necessary without knowing she needed such treatment.  I know they are qualified at what they do but in emotional circumstances like we were in, I would appreciate a straight shooter that could tell me what's a reasonable and rational way to proceed with care.  Perhaps I'm blowing it out of proportion in my mind because it's such was such a trying time for me.  I'll reflect on it. 

Thanks for the interest and points of view on this thread.  I certainly helped me feel confident in my decisions whether they were right for everyone or not.

Shawn

[Wayne1]

That's very uplifting new's....

[chukar-ridge-quest]

That's f-in awesome.  I'm so glad for your family, and most important the pup, that she's getting back to "normal".  If she wags the tail all is well.   Give her a big hug and kiss on her wet nose, from the Chukar family. 

[bucklucky]

Pope I am glad she is doing so much better, wife is happy to hear this also. Keep us posted on her recovery!.