Wolfer

[bearpaw]

No I haven't read it and do not plan to. 

Niemeyer is well known in Idaho and Montana and I know more than I need to know already to make the decision to never provide a penny to the man by buying his book. I will not support someone who makes misleading statements to influence poor wildlife management decisions that devastate elk herds. 

A year or so ago a cow was killed not far out of Boise near Eagle by wolves. Wildlife Services and IDFG investigated the kill and confirmed it was wolves. On another large ranch a little farther north I believe over the last 2 years something like 22 wolves have been shot for causing problems. Carter Niemeyer shows up a week later at the cow kill near Eagle and says it wasn't wolves that killed the cow. There was nothing left to look at.... that was at best laughable and exposed his true alliance. 

To clarify again, people in Idaho and Montana will give you an earful about Niemeyer.   

I am one of those people who believe the wolf can fit in in limited numbers in remote wilderness areas. But Idaho and Montana are proof that the numbers of wolves supported by the likes of Niemeyer will devastate 100 years of successful big game management. 

[quadrafire]

 Whether you are for or against wolves in the lower 48 I think it is a good read.

I'll just leave it at this statement (above). I am not going to argue about it. I realize that this is a very heated situation.

[bearpaw]

Sorry quadrafire, 

I didn't mean for it to come off confrontational to you, you are entitled to any opinion you choose. I suppose if a person has never read the various trapping books that are available his book would certainly seem very fascinating. I would offer this, he is the only trapper I know with that view about wolves. I thought it may be informational for some to know more about Mr Niemeyer before he is heralded as some sort of saint.

[quadrafire]

Sorry quadrafire, 

I didn't mean for it to come off confrontational to you, you are entitled to any opinion you choose. I suppose if a person has never read the various trapping books that are available his book would certainly seem very fascinating. I would offer this, he is the only trapper I know with that view about wolves. I thought it may be informational for some to know more about Mr Niemeyer before he is heralded as some sort of saint.

Definately am not painting him as some form of saint Sounds like most that he worked with in the early days didn't end up liking him much. As far as trapping books I thought it was pretty good. I have read alot of them, I used to trap back in the day so appreciate the expertise.
I have not been keeping up on the wolf topics like many, so for me it was interesting to see how the process happened.

No offense taken!!

[bearpaw]

Sorry quadrafire, 

I didn't mean for it to come off confrontational to you, you are entitled to any opinion you choose. I suppose if a person has never read the various trapping books that are available his book would certainly seem very fascinating. I would offer this, he is the only trapper I know with that view about wolves. I thought it may be informational for some to know more about Mr Niemeyer before he is heralded as some sort of saint.

Definately am not painting him as some form of saint Sounds like most that he worked with in the early days didn't end up liking him much. As far as trapping books I thought it was pretty good. I have read alot of them, I used to trap back in the day so appreciate the expertise.
I have not been keeping up on the wolf topics like many, so for me it was interesting to see how the process happened.

No offense taken!!

Glad to hear, I felt bad after I went back and reread my post. I should not have sounded so critical.

[358NM]

BearPaw
I would be interested in where you got all your information and insight on Neimeyer.
I am just finishing the book and it is a very good read and extremely interesting, kinda reads like a documentary.
Some of your opnions of him I am not finding in the book, but I still have a quarter of the book to go.
I did a lot of looking around on the internet prior to purchasing the book.
Neimeyer seems to be pretty unpopular on both sides of the argument evern more so on the pro wolf side, at least from what I found at various forums and websites.
I guess that is what prompted me to read the book.
I have hunted Idaho since 1983.
Started in the Chamberlain Basin and now pretty much the Panhandle.
I was back in the Frank Church Wilderness in 2005.
Could not believe the difference that apparently wolves had made.
Never saw a grouse or and elk in 10 days.
So no I am not pro wolf.
Probably similar to you, maybe a few in remote wilderness at the most.
However I have not found Neimeyer's book to be pro wolf.
He details how he examines dead livestock to determine cause of death.
From my experience he uses a pretty common sense approach.
Maybe the book is all BS but it doesn't sound like it to me.
It has been my experience over the years that to win and argument or political fight you have to base your argument on facts and the truth not emotion and propaganda.
And I guess that is why I read the book to gather as much information as I can, as I believe we are way over populated with wolves to the great determent of our wildlife.
I know you are very interested and envolved in the wolf issue. Maybe you have already researched the introduction of wolves. If you haven't this book details it from A to Z, and may be of interest to you.
And by the way thanks for all your time and efforts.

[Special T]

I think it is important to remeber EVERYONE has a axe to grind! I would have a whole lot different vie on the wolf subject if the money trial worked out differently... The book may be an honest attempt at showing facts about wolves.  It may be interesting but not relevant... Wolves is about $$$ not wildlife, not saving the planet, its all about getting $$$ from the big pot of cash, the Pitmans Robers fund. 

[bearpaw]

BearPaw
I would be interested in where you got all your information and insight on Neimeyer.
I am just finishing the book and it is a very good read and extremely interesting, kinda reads like a documentary.
Some of your opnions of him I am not finding in the book, but I still have a quarter of the book to go.
I did a lot of looking around on the internet prior to purchasing the book.
Neimeyer seems to be pretty unpopular on both sides of the argument evern more so on the pro wolf side, at least from what I found at various forums and websites.
I guess that is what prompted me to read the book.
I have hunted Idaho since 1983.
Started in the Chamberlain Basin and now pretty much the Panhandle.
I was back in the Frank Church Wilderness in 2005.
Could not believe the difference that apparently wolves had made.
Never saw a grouse or and elk in 10 days.
So no I am not pro wolf.
Probably similar to you, maybe a few in remote wilderness at the most.
However I have not found Neimeyer's book to be pro wolf.
He details how he examines dead livestock to determine cause of death.
From my experience he uses a pretty common sense approach.
Maybe the book is all BS but it doesn't sound like it to me.
It has been my experience over the years that to win and argument or political fight you have to base your argument on facts and the truth not emotion and propaganda.
And I guess that is why I read the book to gather as much information as I can, as I believe we are way over populated with wolves to the great determent of our wildlife.
I know you are very interested and envolved in the wolf issue. Maybe you have already researched the introduction of wolves. If you haven't this book details it from A to Z, and may be of interest to you.
And by the way thanks for all your time and efforts.

Let me explain it this way, if you live in Idaho or Montana you know who Butch Otter or Brian Swetzer is, everyone does. Now there are other names involved on both sides of the wolf introduction issue such as Bangs, Mech, Graves, Geist, Kay, Allen, Sime, Niemeyer, and many others on one side or the other. Anyone who has followed either side of the wolf issue will recognize every one of these names and many more and will also know whether that person has helped to cause the mismanagement of wolves or not. Niemeyer is viewed by hunters very poorly and the wolf groups revere him. He helped to move wolves into Idaho and Montana which has earned him the hatred by hunters who know who is who in this whole wolf fiasco. The wolf groups love him because he was a government trapper who turned wolf lover who was a key person introducing canadian wolves in the NRM.

So "NO" Niemeyer is not hated by the wolf groups they love him, that is what I mean by saying I view this book as a way to marginalize the wolf issue to try and use the disney effect on people in regard to accepting wolves. Bottom line, you are reading biased information whether you realize it or not.

From a Wolf Group:  http://www.livingwithwolves.org/wwd_a_c.niemeyer.html

About Carter Niemeyer
Mr. Niemeyer, as the Wolf Management Specialist of the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Animal Damage Control Department, served as a member of the wolf capture team that brought the first reintroduced wolves from Canada to Yellowstone National Park.

Carter’s career as a wildlife manager and trapper began during his childhood years spent on his family’s farm in Iowa. After college, he moved to Montana and worked for the Montana Department of Livestock, conducting a rabies suppression program. He then became a District Supervisor for the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Animal Damage Control Department, responsible for the district’s predator management program, which included bears, mountain lions, coyotes, eagles and wolves.

By 1989, his experience had led him to become the Wolf Management Specialist for the U.S. Department of Agriculture Wildlife Services, conducting wolf depredation investigations in the three Western wolf recovery states of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. He was a member of the review team during the development of the final Environmental Impact Statement for the reintroduction of the wolf into the Northern Rockies, and became a key member of the team that captured the newly reintroduced Yellowstone wolves.

Moving to Idaho, Carter served as the Wolf Recovery Coordinator of the U. S. Fish and Wildlife
Service, coordinating day-to-day activities regarding federal wolf recovery in Idaho. He retired in 2006, moving to the Idaho Department of Fish and Game as a wolf trapper, mentor and advisor on wolf matters, working in the summers and writing his book, Wolfer.

He received his M.Sc. and his B.Sc, both in Wildlife Biology, from Iowa State University

[358NM]

Yea Bearpaw I know who those people are.
This isn't my first reading on the subject.
Giest is my favorite reading regarding ungulates, very knowledgable and unbiased in my opnion.
I believe he predicted exactly what has happened with the exploding wolf populations and the corresponding reduction in ungulates in the recovery area.
Anyway, my only point was that from previous readings on the subject over many years I felt this book did a very good job of documenting how the actual capture and relocation went down.
I felt is was very relevent to the overall topic of wolf introduction and our efforts to get the numbers reduced.
Just doing a quick google search I came up with 3 pro wolf sites that think he is the devil himself and a wolf murderer.
I did notice he is "revered" as you put it by some of the pro wolf sites also.
My point being I don't think is either hated or loved by all camps on either side.
I really don't know Neimeyer other than his name came up many times over the years, I was only interested in the facts of the reintroductin.
Where did you come up with the Disney thing? I didn't get that out of the book at all.
Anyway wasn't trying to argue just express and defend my opnion of the book.
Hopefully I will get back to the St Joe next month with a wolf tag in hand.
Good Luck

[bearpaw]

No worries, we are all entitled to our opinions and preferences. 

I am biased due to Niemeyer's hands-on involvement releasing the very wolves that have destroyed western elk and moose herds. He can try to justify his actions in his book, maybe it's even an interesting read, but at least a dozen elk herds in multiple states and thousands of hunters have suffered the wrath of Niemeyer's work, it's my opinion he has done a great injustice to the American west. I simply prefer to read the writings of people who have contributed in a positive manner to our wildlife and hunting heritage.

Good luck in the Joe, it's beautiful country, and there are plenty of wolves to hunt, shoot straight. 

[Lowedog]

Didn't Carter Niemeyer help WDFW trap and confirm wolves in the Teanaway? 

[bearpaw]

Didn't Carter Niemeyer help WDFW trap and confirm wolves in the Teanaway?

I don't know. I was told that he was involved at LeClerc Creek in GMU 113, but have not seen that in print.

[WAcoyotehunter]

Carter trapped the diamond pack in 2009.  He was brought in as a contractor by the WDFW.  I met him up there and thought he was knowledgeable and very 'matter of fact' about trapping and wolves.  He seemed like a great guy. I don't know what information anyone here has about him intentionally misinterpreting data, but to accuse a scientist of that without grounds is a serious insult and totally inappropriate.  Hopefully it's based on facts and not a personal grudge.

[bearpaw]

WAcoyote, there are a lot of people who have been insulted during this wolf fiasco. Dozens of outfitters have been driven completely out of business and even more ranchers have suffered huge financial losses, I see that as a bit of an insult too. I have never met Niemeyer and can say nothing from personal experience about the man. I'm passing on what many others have said about him and it appears to me that he has earned his reputation in Idaho and Montana by his own actions.
Here's an example:

http://explorethebitterroot.com/pro-wolf-community-stoop-to-lies-deception

Pro-Wolf Community Stoop to Lies & Deception
by BitterrootBob on August 29, 2011

When the truth doesn’t support your cause, you resort to lies and deception. Obviously, that is the belief of the pro-wolf community. Unfortunately, the Internet has enabled anyone with a connection to become a so-called journalist. The problem is many are too lazy to complete essential interviews necessary to find all the facts or don’t want factual evidence to interfere with their agenda. Such is the case with a couple of articles regarding the shooting of two wolf pups last week in the Bitterroot Valley.
 
The first story came out in the Ravalli Republic quoting a former government wolf trapper and depredation investigator Carter Niemeyer stating these wolf pups didn’t need to die, “They would kill no livestock for at least a year or more if ever”. This was an irresponsible statement considering the situation. The rancher shot and killed two wolves that had his sheep and goats rounded up. He had lost a sheep to a wolf only five weeks prior to this incident. After he shot the wolves, the rancher notified Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks (FWP). An investigation was done by Joe Jaquith, FWP Warden and Joe determined the rancher acted appropriately and within Montana law. Mr. Niemeyer claims these wolves couldn’t kill for a year.
 
These claims were not validated by the wildlife biologists I spoke with including Mitch King, retired Regional Director United States Fish & Wildlife Service (USFWS), Ed Bangs, retired USFWS Wolf Recovery Coordinator and Liz Bradley, Region 2 wolf biologist FWP. In fact Liz Bradley stated, “this was the inevitable end for these two pups. The pack had chosen a poor place to live and there was a history of livestock depredation.”
 
The second article has so much wrong with it I don’t even know where to begin. The article is on Wolf Watcher, a new, radical organization headed locally by Marc Cooke of Stevensville.
 
The first thing that strikes the reader is a picture of approximately 6 week old pups that give the reader the idea this is what was shot. The wolves that were shot were up to 45 lbs and looked nothing like this photo. The inclusion of this photograph is outright deception aimed at getting public sympathy and inciting public outcry. The article then goes on:
 
“It is widely accepted science that at four months old, wolf pups rely on their mother and other pack members for all nourishment; biologists believe at this young age these wolf pups could not take down prey on their own; evidence of that fact was the emaciated condition of the pups when they were found. Thus, we assert that the Hamilton pups were in no way a threat to Mr. Schram and/or his livestock and property.”
 
Mr. Cooke, what biologists believe these wolf pups could not take down prey on their own? Where did you get the fallacy that these wolves were in an emaciated condition? When you publish articles maybe…just maybe you should actually speak to a biologist. Maybe you should speak to someone who actually investigated the incident and examined the wolves.
 
Mitch King, retired Regional Director USFWS wildlife biologist, said to me, “sheep and goats would be easy pickings for two 4 month old, 40 lb wolf pups.” Liz Bradley also told me, “while wolf pups this age don’t normally kill, they are capable. They were larger than a full grown coyote and coyotes kill sheep every day.” Liz went on to say, “these two wolves were not under-weight and were in excellent condition.” Mr. Cooke, Liz Bradley is the Region 2 Wolf Biologist for FWP. Who did you speak with about their emaciated condition?
 
I also had a lengthy conversation with Ed Bangs. Ed does not believe these wolves were orphaned as other reports have indicated. Liz Bradley was also skeptical about them being orphaned due to their excellent condition. Mr. Bangs is certain there are still adult wolves in the vicinity of the Schram ranch that were caring for these wolves.
 
All three of the biologists thought Carter Niemeyer’s comments were irresponsible. They were unanimous in their opinions that Mr. Schram acted not only within the law but he acted appropriately given the situation. Mr. Cooke, you assert that the Hamilton pups were in no way a threat to Mr. Schram and/or his livestock and property. The biologists I spoke with do not agree. And even if, in hindsight, there was agreement that the livestock was in no danger, it is not the responsibility of a landowner to make the judgements you and Mr. Niemeyer are claiming he should have made. Mr. Schram saw his livestock being rounded up by large, apex predators weeks after he lost a sheep to another predator. He acted. He acted appropriately. He acted within the law.
 
You say you reached out to FWP to re-investigate this incidence but were not satisfied with their response. FWP investigated and found the rancher acted appropriately and within the law. The last thing we need is to spend taxpayer dollars conducting a follow-up investigation of an incident that was so clearly appropriate and lawful!
 
Mr. Cooke you also add a suggested comments section with a suggested comment reading:
 
“I believe the Hamilton wolf pups killed by Mr. Schram were no threat to him and/or his livestock and property. I want Montana FWP to further investigate the circumstances that led to the wrongful death of these wolf pups and hold Mr. Schram accountable for his poor judgment.”
 
I know from speaking with Liz Bradley that FWP does not release the names of people who shoot wolves or who have wolf depredation. You claim Mr. Schram used poor judgement, although not a single credible person is in agreement with you.
 
The people I want held accountable for poor judgement are those who released the name of the Schrams along with people like Mr. Niemeyer and yourself who have slandered the Schrams through lies and deception. This is serious business, as others in the Schram’s position have received death threats along with Google maps showing the location of their homes, jobs and even their children’s schools posted online.
 
Now Mr. Cooke, I call on you to write a retraction to your article and replace it with facts instead of lies & deception.

[Lowedog]

That story has to be true it was written by Bitterroot Bob on the Entire Net! 

Sorry I couldn't help myself.    

Whatever the guy has done he is doing good things for us now by helping WDFW confirm wolves in WA isn't he?