Free: Contests & Raffles.
My understanding is that if you are of slightly open mind, that no matter if you are pro-wolf or anti-wolf, your viewpoint is likely to become slightly weakened and you will appreciate the other side ever so slightly.We'll see
FYI - Many people in Idaho and Montana lay blame on Niemeyer as a key player in downplaying the impacts and helping to establish the extremem numbers of wolves in Idaho and Montana. Ultimately it's these same wolves that will impact Washington herds.I will not be buying his book ever.
It's good to see that you are keeping an open mind
will look for it. When you readl Flowers books on bears you will note later in life he was involved in developing alternative methods of dealing with bear damage to reduce the need to kill bears. I think if a person spends enough time working closely with one species they tend to have a better more full understanding of that animal.
There is quite a difference between "Black Bear and Flowers" verses "Wolves and Niemeyer". May I suggest an opposing view to Niemeyers that won't even cost you to watch it? The facts coming out of Idaho and Montana support the fact that the wolf is not all the wolf lovers have cracked it up to be!
Quote from: runamuk on September 13, 2011, 08:22:27 AMwill look for it. When you readl Flowers books on bears you will note later in life he was involved in developing alternative methods of dealing with bear damage to reduce the need to kill bears. I think if a person spends enough time working closely with one species they tend to have a better more full understanding of that animal. There is quite a difference between "Black Bear and Flowers" verses "Wolves and Niemeyer". Bear have not devastated the best elk herds in the world and have not been lied about in order to get higher numbers of them in the states. Flowers to my knowledge did not provide misleading information about black bears to further his agenda. May I suggest an opposing view to Niemeyers that won't even cost you to watch it? The facts coming out of Idaho and Montana support the fact that the wolf is not all the wolf lovers have cracked it up to be! 5 or 10 years from now Washington will be just like, or even worse off than Idaho is today, let's revisit this discussion in 10 years and see who was closest to being correct, WARNING (history is on my side). http://cryingwolfmovie.com/apologies for threadjacking...
Quote from: bearpaw on September 13, 2011, 01:11:21 PMQuote from: runamuk on September 13, 2011, 08:22:27 AMwill look for it. When you readl Flowers books on bears you will note later in life he was involved in developing alternative methods of dealing with bear damage to reduce the need to kill bears. I think if a person spends enough time working closely with one species they tend to have a better more full understanding of that animal. There is quite a difference between "Black Bear and Flowers" verses "Wolves and Niemeyer". Bear have not devastated the best elk herds in the world and have not been lied about in order to get higher numbers of them in the states. Flowers to my knowledge did not provide misleading information about black bears to further his agenda. May I suggest an opposing view to Niemeyers that won't even cost you to watch it? The facts coming out of Idaho and Montana support the fact that the wolf is not all the wolf lovers have cracked it up to be! 5 or 10 years from now Washington will be just like, or even worse off than Idaho is today, let's revisit this discussion in 10 years and see who was closest to being correct, WARNING (history is on my side). http://cryingwolfmovie.com/apologies for threadjacking...I will have to read the work in order to form an educated opinion....I have no idea who niemeyer is even so until I find and read what is being discussed....just saying there are two sides to this issue and neither polarity is completely right...
Whether you are for or against wolves in the lower 48 I think it is a good read.
Sorry quadrafire, I didn't mean for it to come off confrontational to you, you are entitled to any opinion you choose. I suppose if a person has never read the various trapping books that are available his book would certainly seem very fascinating. I would offer this, he is the only trapper I know with that view about wolves. I thought it may be informational for some to know more about Mr Niemeyer before he is heralded as some sort of saint.
Quote from: bearpaw on September 13, 2011, 01:48:52 PMSorry quadrafire, I didn't mean for it to come off confrontational to you, you are entitled to any opinion you choose. I suppose if a person has never read the various trapping books that are available his book would certainly seem very fascinating. I would offer this, he is the only trapper I know with that view about wolves. I thought it may be informational for some to know more about Mr Niemeyer before he is heralded as some sort of saint.Definately am not painting him as some form of saint Sounds like most that he worked with in the early days didn't end up liking him much. As far as trapping books I thought it was pretty good. I have read alot of them, I used to trap back in the day so appreciate the expertise.I have not been keeping up on the wolf topics like many, so for me it was interesting to see how the process happened.No offense taken!!
BearPawI would be interested in where you got all your information and insight on Neimeyer.I am just finishing the book and it is a very good read and extremely interesting, kinda reads like a documentary.Some of your opnions of him I am not finding in the book, but I still have a quarter of the book to go.I did a lot of looking around on the internet prior to purchasing the book.Neimeyer seems to be pretty unpopular on both sides of the argument evern more so on the pro wolf side, at least from what I found at various forums and websites.I guess that is what prompted me to read the book.I have hunted Idaho since 1983.Started in the Chamberlain Basin and now pretty much the Panhandle.I was back in the Frank Church Wilderness in 2005.Could not believe the difference that apparently wolves had made.Never saw a grouse or and elk in 10 days.So no I am not pro wolf.Probably similar to you, maybe a few in remote wilderness at the most.However I have not found Neimeyer's book to be pro wolf.He details how he examines dead livestock to determine cause of death.From my experience he uses a pretty common sense approach.Maybe the book is all BS but it doesn't sound like it to me.It has been my experience over the years that to win and argument or political fight you have to base your argument on facts and the truth not emotion and propaganda.And I guess that is why I read the book to gather as much information as I can, as I believe we are way over populated with wolves to the great determent of our wildlife.I know you are very interested and envolved in the wolf issue. Maybe you have already researched the introduction of wolves. If you haven't this book details it from A to Z, and may be of interest to you.And by the way thanks for all your time and efforts.
Didn't Carter Niemeyer help WDFW trap and confirm wolves in the Teanaway?
The ranch foreman in charge of the cow herd near Eagle, who reported a dead cow to Wildlife Services, was gracious enough to let me, my wife, Jenny, and Suzanne Stone (Defenders of Wildlife) take a look at the cow carcass.
A point I need to make here is that in all my years of investigating wolf damage to livestock I have verified only two incidents where wolves have killed adult cows. I have never seen a situation where a bull, mule or horse have been killed. I’ve had more opportunity than most people to investigate wolf damage to livestock, so I am telling you, without equivocation, that it would be an extremely rare incident to see wolves kill large livestock. Wolves do not expend a lot of energy killing large prey unless they are hungry, regardless of the stories being told in the media and on blogs. When they do kill large prey, an individual wolf can consume 10-20 pounds of meat in a single feeding. Very little meat was eaten from the cow carcass except from visits by coyotes and an eagle.
I am no longer employed by any agency, and my opinion doesn’t change the outcome of this event. The government has authorized some wolves to die and I don’t expect that my conclusions will change that outcome either. I just wanted to express my opinion and remind the public that livestock depredation incidents need to be investigated professionally, and with transparency and oversight, because I think wolves have been, and continue to be, taking a bad rap for problems they do not create.