point minimum and herd management question

[DoubleJ]

From a completely non scientific point of view I have a question on point restrictions.  Some GMU's in the northeast went to 4pt min. this year to increase the number of deer and boost the herd (or so I'd assume).  Might this backfire?  In another GMU I hunted last year, there was a 3pt minimum on mulies and had been for a very long time.  This GMU is popular and draws a lot of hunters.  While there, my son and I counted no less than 2 dozen bucks.  Most of them were pushing 200lbs (estimate) or more.  They were BIG animals.  EVERY one of them had skinny main beam and skinny forks.  That was it.  200+lb 2x2 mulies.  Seems that in a very short amount of time, the genetics of one non-legal, bad gene carrying buck had spread to the point that, the only deer left in the area were now not growing to legal size.

In my very non scientific POV, wouldn't a point MAXIMUM or a slot limit work better?  In this GMU, if they went to a slot limit where, the deer's allowed to be harvested were 2pt only, wouldn't a buck or 2 not from the bad gene pool breed out the area.  A few years, maybe 10, of this and those bigger, better bucks would have the area better bred and the bad genes would be washed out.

In the NE, they could do this too.  Make it maybe a 2-3pt only area, allowing the spikes to grow and the trophys to breed.  Sell off 4pt or better quality tags to keep interest in the area and let the area get fat with trophy bucks.

Just my uneducated opinion.  Please comment

[buckfvr]

Where whitetails are concerned, if genetics are decent, and winter is mild, with good feed, a 1 1/2 yr old buck can and often times does carry a small 8pt rack, if he was a june fawn.  That would be a 4pt mini.....not a trophy by any user groups definition.  ANd only needing to be 4 on one side. 

Mulies can be different.....200lb live weight is a young muley buck in alot of areas.  Depending on when the buck was fawned, he may not become 3 or 4pter until 3 1/2 yrs old.  My guess is your looking at young deer......I saw 6 mule bucks last week....only one was legal, I was only scouting for late archery whitetails, but saw these.....of the 5 forkies, 3 were most obvious 1 1/2 year olds, and two larger bucks I guessed at 2 1/2yr old.  Looked big, but not mature deer.

[boneaddict]

There is a little bit to that, obvious with genes being spread.  Every year we see giant two points.  however remember that %50 of genetic material is carried by the does.   You talk to the old timers and they will talk of big two points back in the day as well.   Many opinions will be based on bias of whichever direction the person believes or their side of th earguement.  You can take the stance that larger mature bucks will breed more does thus propetuating those genes.    If all the bucks are dead, who is doing the breeding.  Will you still have older age class, natural survivers breeding or whatever survived the slaughter.

as for whitetails.  I se MANY 1.5 year olds with 4 points.   

[sirmissalot]

If washington adopted a plan that involved a slot or maximum point restriction I would absolutely not hunt this state. No way in heck.

[boneaddict]

To offset the two point bias which "may be" occuring, I have always suggested a youth hunt or permit tag for them. 
More $'s for the WDFW!

Would you put in for a november 2 point tag.   I probably would actually becasue I have seen some killers.

[boneaddict]

The state needs to do some sort of adjustment to native treaty rights if it were to plan for a trophy area.  As noted with places like the Clockum and elk, how it is working out.  Few select tags, have lots of nice big bulls so they can all leave in the back of trucks August through January or whatever the season is.  Other than that......they shut hunting down in Alta for a couple of seasons.  You should have seen it the year they opened it, or better yet, the year before.   There were some monsters running around.  I wish I had been more able to get out with a camera. 

[buckfvr]

there was a monster 2X on the hill behind the house 3 years ago......He was not with the does when the rut came, instead a couple much larger 4Xs showed.......didnt see the 2X the next year, figured he probably forked again......

I can be counted as having seen the large variety 2X's in the Okanogan and Chelan units in the mid 70's to the early 80s.....only difference then was you would also end up seeing the mature bucks as well.

Let me add....yep....Antoine Creek, Black Canyon, and west side of Goat Mt. used to be amazing.............

[CedarPants]

as for whitetails.  I se MANY 1.5 year olds with 4 points.

   Especially in 121 

Several years ago I came across a hunter near Odessa who had just shot a buck with a MONTSTER rack, and I mean coke can bases and nearly as tall as my arm is long (I'm 6'3'').  He was on the side of the road with the buck in his truck and was on the phone, so I stopped to look.  Overheard his call, he was turning himself in - it was a 2 x 2.  Gamie showed up and took care of what needed to be taken care of, the guy was sick to his stomach and the gamie felt bad for him (even stating 'damn, I would have pulled the trigger too).

I know they now issue a good handful of 2 x 2 permits in that same unit for that very reason - trying to get a handle on the big 2's.

[DoubleJ]

The unit I am talking about is Foster Creek.  More than a couple of people I've talked to on here before I went and hunted that unit warned me ahead of time about them.  These are not young bucks.  These are mature bucks with sagging backs and full faces.

[WAcoyotehunter]

maybe making archery or MZ season open for 2 pt deer would help get rid of some of them.  I used to work in Foster and know what you mean about the mature 2pts.

[Special T]

I think  comparing Mulies to WT is a bad idea. Since WT cover such a large geographic area i'm sure there have been studies on the affects of different kinds of restrictions. As far a mulies and BT i think the avalibility of studies is going to be quite limited.. Especially when you consider the different habits of those deer. 

[WAcoyotehunter]

I think  comparing Mulies to WT is a bad idea. Since WT cover such a large geographic area i'm sure there have been studies on the affects of different kinds of restrictions. As far a mulies and BT i think the avalibility of studies is going to be quite limited.. Especially when you consider the different habits of those deer. 

You're right- its like comparing apples and oranges.

[buckfvr]

all three deer have to be managed seperately.....no mistaking that.

[Special T]

I think making a comparison of BT and Mulies is closer more like comparing red delicous to  Gongolas...