WA management critics can crank up the volume

[asl20bball]

I just got back from Republic and just let me say that in the 16 years that I have been hunting over there, I have never seen the deer count so low  Also, there were more predators this year than I have ever seen there too.

Ditto...6 years of hunting Republic/Curlew and fewer deer then ever this year. I think the weather had a huge part of not seeing as many muleys but even the white tail #'s are WAY down. Used to not be able to keep the WT deer out of the headlights when driving back to the cabin in the evenings now there's hardly any WT deer...they need to reduce the 65+ & youth doe permits even further and add antler restrictions to the WT deer.

[bigtex]

Sorry, but I have to disagree withn you on this one Dave.

I think it's nearly 100% economy. People can't afford to go hunting. I am seeing fewer hunters in every state, Idaho, Utah, and I am expecting it in Montana when it opens. In Idaho on the elk opener there is an area where I usually see 25 to 40 camps, this year I counted 8 camps, that was it. In Utah I saw the fewest hunters I have ever saw when out elk hunting.

I was on the whitetail working group that recommended the 4pt rule and I voted for it to reduce the harvest. So I am happy to hear that the harvest is down, even though I credit the majority of the reduction in harvest to the economy and a depressed deer herd. For example, hunters hunting in 3 other units with no antler restriction still have to pass the check station on their way back to Spokane, guess what, those hunters had no deer either. 

I agre bearpaw, 100% economy.
People are staying closer to home again this year. I talked to a friend that hunted the Snoqualmie Tree Farm in King County which requires a $225 annual permit. He said that this year Hancock increased their permits from 500 to 800. He said he saw more people on opening day then he's seen the past 6 years combined, and he hunts all deer season long. I guess every hunter he ran into said the same thing. In this case I think your King County residents would rather pay the $225 annual pass, pay the $40-50 in gas and have a good shot at a deer and go home every night, then spending the $200 roundtrip in just gas to go places like Colville or the Blues, plus have to spend all the money on food, etc for just a single trip.

[Sumpnneedskillin]

The antler dilemma has interested this column because it should logically also apply to mule deer, which have been under a 3-point minimum restriction for more than a decade. In southeast Washington, this column saw a lot of 2-point bucks over the weekend, and darned few legal 3-point or better animals.

I was outside of Pomeroy opening weekend saturday, sunday and monday morning and would honestly say I saw more legal bucks than not legal bucks. The weather sucked and we were socked in with fog more than we were not so we didn't see a lot of deer either way, but the bucks we saw were more legal than not legal. Some more mature bucks would be nice, but there was definitely no shortage of legal bucks. If the weather was better, I suspect we could have easily all tagged out if we just wanted to shoot legal bucks.

We do not want to see Gary Douvia bumped off the commission.  He's one of the better ones as far as wolf issues go.

There's so many potential variables to a decrease in hunter numbers. The economy is in the crapper. With gas at almost $4 a gallon combined with so many people out of work, on a tight budget, etc, it's no surprise to me that hunter numbers were down. I drove from western wa to Pomeroy and spent almost $200 just in gas alone. Antler restrictions surely played a part in the 2 units that were changed, but there's lot of other things contributing as well. It seems only natural to me to blame the WDFW given the recent string of events.

Jackelope, we when went out Sat afternoon and all we saw were Mulie does.  It went from singles to a group of 6.  We saw probably 20 or so during the time we were out.  I do know that there were some decent bucks and just plain bucks taken around the area.  Saw lots and lots of hunters, the constuction detour goes past my house.  If I'd had a nickle for every camper, motorhome and travel trailer that went past the house this weekend I'd be able to hunt out of state for the next couple of years.   

[Glockster]

Micro econ theory 101 has everything to do with it.  Each hunter does a CBA...cost benefit analysis in their heads when it comes to spending limited time and treasure on hunting each season.  The economy is simply squeezing us all in every direction we look....pay more get less.  WDFW's hunting program is simply exhibit A when it comes to 'less is the new more' green is great ride your bike to work Obama-nomics math.

Gas, plus time off, plus grief from the missus, plus tags/licenses/parking passes, etc subtracted from the greatly reduced likelyhood of bringing home a deer or elk under antler point restrictions simply didn't pencil for 49% of NE whitetail hunters and 38% of Okanogan hunters this year.  ~And it surely didn't pencil for the 40 some odd percent of WA hunters who have dropped out of the ranks since the 80's.

More and more of us are simply seeing the costs outweigh the benefits of hunting here in WA.  The end result is fewer hunters standing together when it finally comes time to say "enough is enough!!!".  Fewer and fewer in line to buy groceries and gas in Colville, Naches, Colfax, and Twisp. 

Problem with antler point restriction in WA is they never go away!

[bearpaw]

... we were pretty much told by the WDFW that predator management wasn't much of an will never be considered as an option, we discussed other options too, but the only readily available method option we'll ever put into practice to reduce pressure was to reduce human harvest.

Replace WDFW with Conservation Northwest in that sentence 

Just had to poke fun, as I also agree with the 4-point minimum and agree the herd needs reduced pressure up there.  I just don't like seeing the WDFW telling us so matter of factly that predator management isn't and never will be an option, especially with wolves moving in.  More wolves = more reduced hunter harvest.  They are going to be managing us, not the other way around

You hit the nail on the head, my statements needed rewording....

Honestly folks I agree that its all messed up, maybe we will learn something from this, maybe we won't, but at least the commission was willing to listen to the whitetail group and try soemthing other than the failing WDFW strategy. Obviously the WDFW hasn't found the solution, the herd keeps dropping. Think about that for a minute, do you want to get rid of those commissioners. If I lived in the Okanogan or elsewhere I would be looking for some solutions to the dropping deer numbers, maybe you guys can work with the commission on some possible solutions for other areas too. One thing is for sure, our deer herds need help.

Another thing, if anyone will consider looking at predator management its the Commission, history has shown us WDFW will not help us like we need help with predator management. Just maybe the commission, the same commission that is questioning the faulty wolf science will tell the WDFW to manage predators. I know that's a long shot, but its the only shot we have. 

[buckfvr]

My personal feeling is we will never hear the whole truth and nothing but truth from either entity.   Too much politicing and deal making going on behind the scenes.  I trust none of them.....WDFW is under the thumb of the Governor and goes in the direction they are told, elseways looking for another job.  In the past, and I dare say, now and in the future, a Director of F&W that opposes the Governor, will find his/herself out of a job.   Google Bern SHanks and read a bit.  Same scenario, different players.

Closing roads, wolves, why this change and not that....I think we would all be appalled and fit to be tied if we were ever told the truth.  I dont look for truth any time soon.  Heck, we cant even demand ratification of current commissioners.......We should be able to vote for regional commissioners.......and fire them.  Its our government, but we sure as hell have zero control, and barely any input........

[Wenatcheejay]

I don't think that Dave is wrong.

The restriction is a factor. It is also a kick in the butt because of poor management. No predator control means many will question if this is a desperate act. There is no scientific approach to this new Antler Restriction and no way to prove if it works or not. Those comments came from WDFW to me.
So, outside of opinion, there is no way to if this will work and no way to know what all is the reasons are. It is sad if the economies of these towns suffer from it. But when you add the economy to the pot and is it really so hard to see the idea that it is not worth the bother to the average hunter? I'll be going elsewhere for a few years.
Regardless, the "hope" was not for this season, it was for 2013 or 2014. That I can wrap my thick head around.
I really do hope that it improves things up there it is a blast to hunt.

edit

Dale, agreed with your rewording. I don't outright oppose the restriction for the time frame in place I just hope it is as it has been put in place and does not become a moving target. At the WDFW meeting I attended we discussed a 15 or 30 day spring bear season in 117 and 121 which was not met with any resistance.

[hunter360]

I just got back from Republic and just let me say that in the 16 years that I have been hunting over there, I have never seen the deer count so low  Also, there were more predators this year than I have ever seen there too.

Ditto...6 years of hunting Republic/Curlew and fewer deer then ever this year. I think the weather had a huge part of not seeing as many muleys but even the white tail #'s are WAY down. Used to not be able to keep the WT deer out of the headlights when driving back to the cabin in the evenings now there's hardly any WT deer...they need to reduce the 65+ & youth doe permits even further and add antler restrictions to the WT deer.

I saw two deer the whole trip. I usually see massive herds. The two I saw were the 3x3 that my buddy shot, and the 4x5 I shot

[huntnphool]

Perhaps it is time for the public to start asking state and federal managers just why it is they seem intent to discourage the public from using public land for legitimate purposes, whether camping, sight-seeing, target shooting or hunting.

 Hence the "Discover Pass"

[500 long]

They should restock the deer numbers, anywere needed, with the numerous garden fed city deer.

[huntnphool]

Gas, plus time off, plus grief from the missus, plus tags/licenses/parking passes, etc subtracted from the greatly reduced likelyhood of bringing home a deer or elk under antler point restrictions simply didn't pencil for 49% of NE whitetail hunters and 38% of Okanogan hunters this year.

 If that is the case then they should have been tipped off by a 38% decrease in license sales earlier this year. Was there a 38% decrease in sales?

 This also goes further in proving that WDFW is only interested in revenue. If there is a statewide decrease in hunters in the field, yet the decrease in license sales is not the same percentage, then one must conclude that the only reason a lot of guys purchased a license was because it is required in order to purchase a special hunt permit.

 If they trully are not just in it for the revenue then why not let people apply for permits without purchasing a license, like for OIL permits? Truth is they are only interested in getting the money, they couldn't care less how the hunting is.

[huntnphool]

 I remember a thread a couple years ago where we all were discussing antler restrictions and how it never worked in other states and was removed everywhere except here. It was also suggested that we have a 4 point restriction in some units, also suggested to WDFW in their survey. Their reply was 4 point restrictions wouldn't work because it would mean that only the most mature deer would be harvested/targetted.

 My question to Dale is how is this any different, why is it acceptable now?

[boneaddict]

I suppose another topic we vary a bit on.  Mostly substantiated by anecdotal evidence I suppose which is just chaulked up to my experiences.  I enjoy the three point or better rule, at least in the Methow.  as I believe it helps with escapement of the idiot critters when they are young and impressionalble.     Same with bulls. 

I'd probably mix it up a bit though.   2 point season for youth, or something like that for muledeer.

as for whitetails, I see so many younger deer that are 4 points I just shook my head on that one and moved on to other topics.   

[bigtex]

Gas, plus time off, plus grief from the missus, plus tags/licenses/parking passes, etc subtracted from the greatly reduced likelyhood of bringing home a deer or elk under antler point restrictions simply didn't pencil for 49% of NE whitetail hunters and 38% of Okanogan hunters this year.

 If that is the case then they should have been tipped off by a 38% decrease in license sales earlier this year. Was there a 38% decrease in sales?

WDFW is on track to break or tie their all time record for license (hunting and fishing combined) revenue.

[500 long]

I ask any one who could answer. What would it take to get someone to transplant them garden fed city deer.  The technology is certainly available. I would love to do a little "catch and release" if I was allowed. We as a group have a voice, can we make it happen?