Is there a need for the cow hunts in SW WA?

[wrongway]

 

[AKBowman]

I think they should give more tags for the environmentalist.  It's sickening to watch the National Forest to go to hell..  They need to log that sum biatch!  No kitchen=no food=no elk..

Otherwise, I agree with more cow permits..  Higher the Bull to Cow ratio the healthier the herd.  I hunted my arse of this last season.  Every timber stand, every creek bottom and swamp, hrs glassing in a gated unit.   End Result this year,  19spikes,  85 cows.  Not how it should be..  Had I not spent so much time in the brush the spike and cow numbers woulda been alot higher.

Wow ! I only spent 5 days in a gated unit, called in 7 Branched antlered bulls, and 3 cows (different times, not together) saw 37 other Elk, including another branched bull but not able to close the distance, this does not count the 9 other bulls I heard bugle, but never got to see...
I beleive a FEW cow permits are no big deal, it is when they offer 100's to reduce the herd that I object.
I feel that if they want to reduce the herd, it should be by allowing an additional week for all user groups, and reduce the herd by allowing a larger overall harvest, not by eliminating calf recruitment by killing cows, and eliminating production.
as their own mission statement is,

sustain –
and even enhance – hunting opportunities,
care for our wildlife areas, and meet our other
responsibilities for wildlife stewardship in the
coming years.

sustain - and even enhance - hunting opportunities, does not include herd reduction to decrease future harvest. 

Stik- You are right on but if they lengthened the season to reduce elk numbers rather than giving out permits they would miss out on the revenue. Apparently, teh WDFW should change their mission statement to

     "pillage the hell out of the people of Washingtons wild game, fleece the hell out of the hunters who provide our wages and over everything else bend over backwards to create revenue and take nothing else above the almighty dollar"

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

Unfortunately, it seems like they are too busy trying to

"sustain –
and even enhance –  OUR paycheck,
care for our wildlife areas, and meet OUR OTHER responsibilities in the
coming years, so WE have jobs.

Have you seen the new "activity reports" ? sure wish I got a salary to do almost nothing but write a few sentences about a day in the woods once a week. 

[Huntbear]

I think they should give more tags for the environmentalist.  It's sickening to watch the National Forest to go to hell..  They need to log that sum biatch!  No kitchen=no food=no elk..

Otherwise, I agree with more cow permits..  Higher the Bull to Cow ratio the healthier the herd.  I hunted my arse of this last season.  Every timber stand, every creek bottom and swamp, hrs glassing in a gated unit.   End Result this year,  19spikes,  85 cows.  Not how it should be..  Had I not spent so much time in the brush the spike and cow numbers woulda been alot higher.

You should see how bad it is on the south side of Mt. St. Helens, in the N.F.  They have done some land swaps so bits and pieces could be logged, but anything near the monument area is hands off..... almost wish for a forest fire, at least there would be grass to feed the elk.  The reprod where I hunt elk is 20 yrs. old now.  they finally thinned it and the huckleberry brush took off.  More bear sign than I have ever seen.  Elk?  not so much...

[elksnout]

Our group hunts the Gifford Pinchot. We see less elk each year. And to some degree it may be because of the reprod has grown up so much you can't see and needs thinning. Or they have found greener pastures. Either way = less elk. We enjoy the area and we are not keen on the idea of moving. But I really do not think it's because of cow permits, just less food for them to hang around anymore without at least some logging.

[ICEMAN]

I drew a tag and claimed a winston cow this January on a new hunt this year, designed to thin the herd. I am conflicted on the topic.

On one hand, I always want to see herd size increase, no matter what, and I feel that thinning the cows is a bad idea. But, I am supposed to trust that Wildlife has the herds best interest in mind, that they are the professional managers of the resource and I should trust their decision making process. ( Have they reduced cow hunt numbers in other units?)

On the other hand, there may just be more elk there than we know. My cow hunt lasted until 10am of day 1. At dawn I found a sizeable herd, but they were busted up by a couple of other hunters shooting at greater distance than I was from the animals. I claimed my cow on the second encounter of the morning. There are obviously elk in the area, even after a long long hunting season of a lot of pressure.

So, this is the rub, I want herd size to increase, yet there I was applying for the new hunt to help keep my freezer full. I guess I am part of the problem?    If I was a better bull hunter maybe I would not apply for these types of hunts...

Do I fully trust that wildlife is sponsoring hunts that are needed to keep the herd healthy? 

Has greed caused me to apply for a hunt I am not sure needed to be exercised?   

My biggest concern regarding all of the permit hunts in this state is that I do feel they may be about money. Sell off the herds to fatten the state coffers, not about proper game management. I envision a future where every single hunt in the state is a pay to play permit hunt, where all of us are just robotically submitting permit apps and paying fees in order to simply be considered to even be able to hunt. The odds of getting drawn for any hunt worsen every year and I do not see how they can change the methodology of it. How can they now yank points out from guys feet after they have applied for years? Just like welfare. Get us invested in the program and you are committed to it. Do guys want to see the system scrapped and watch their quality hunt app points zeroed out for a better plan? A lot of guys have max points for quality hunts and cringe at the thought of others like myself blowing points on a lousy cow hunt. I hear you. I am a meat hunter, so it feel like I have thrown caution to the wind when applying for a meat hunt.

So hear I sit not sure if I am part of the problem of; or part of a solution to game management.

[Arteman]

I drew a tag and claimed a winston cow this January on a new hunt this year, designed to thin the herd. I am conflicted on the topic.

On one hand, I always want to see herd size increase, no matter what, and I feel that thinning the cows is a bad idea. But, I am supposed to trust that Wildlife has the herds best interest in mind, that they are the professional managers of the resource and I should trust their decision making process. ( Have they reduced cow hunt numbers in other units?)

On the other hand, there may just be more elk there than we know. My cow hunt lasted until 10am of day 1. At dawn I found a sizeable herd, but they were busted up by a couple of other hunters shooting at greater distance than I was from the animals. I claimed my cow on the second encounter of the morning. There are obviously elk in the area, even after a long long hunting season of a lot of pressure.

So, this is the rub, I want herd size to increase, yet there I was applying for the new hunt to help keep my freezer full. I guess I am part of the problem?    If I was a better bull hunter maybe I would not apply for these types of hunts...

Do I fully trust that wildlife is sponsoring hunts that are needed to keep the herd healthy? 

Has greed caused me to apply for a hunt I am not sure needed to be exercised?   

My biggest concern regarding all of the permit hunts in this state is that I do feel they may be about money. Sell off the herds to fatten the state coffers, not about proper game management. I envision a future where every single hunt in the state is a pay to play permit hunt, where all of us are just robotically submitting permit apps and paying fees in order to simply be considered to even be able to hunt. The odds of getting drawn for any hunt worsen every year and I do not see how they can change the methodology of it. How can they now yank points out from guys feet after they have applied for years? Just like welfare. Get us invested in the program and you are committed to it. Do guys want to see the system scrapped and watch their quality hunt app points zeroed out for a better plan? A lot of guys have max points for quality hunts and cringe at the thought of others like myself blowing points on a lousy cow hunt. I hear you. I am a meat hunter, so it feel like I have thrown caution to the wind when applying for a meat hunt.

So hear I sit not sure if I am part of the problem of; or part of a solution to game management.

Iceman, I live here and have hunted the unit my whole life, I believe these cow hunts have more to do with the timber companies than anything else.  There are a lot of elk in the Winston but the herd is not unhealthy other than hoof rot issues, but these cow hunts won't solve that problem.  These hunts are more in Wecos best interest than the herds.  These elk don't have a tough winter there with a lot of lowlands in the unit, and with it being one of heaviest logged areas in recent years there is a lot of fresh feed.  So i cant say if hunting them at this time hurts them or not in that area, but my guess would be yes, especially heavy with calves.  I know Weco wanted to give out cow hunts to employees as Christmas gifts but got shot down on the idea.  Not long ago I talked to a good recourse of a neighboring timber companie that told me they push for these permits to reduce damage to their trees on their lands.  I can't argue that the timing of the hunts might not be the best time for these Elk, but ill continue to put in for the late hunts as long as they offer them.  This way I can concentrate on bulls during regular season and if unsuccessful I know I have meat coming in the late.  It makes my decision easy because I can tell you if had to decide to take a cow before a bull there would be one less guy to compete for tags against.

[BOWHUNTER45]

The whole point of such a long late hunt is to reduce the herds on there wintering grounds.... highly doubt there is that many elk hanging around in some of these areas in Sept or early Nov... Am I wrong ? All I can say is that cow my son got may be one of the best dang elk I ever layed my lips on 

[Tbar]

The whole point of such a long late hunt is to reduce the herds on there wintering grounds.... highly doubt there is that many elk hanging around in some of these areas in Sept or early Nov... Am I wrong ? All I can say is that cow my son got may be one of the best dang elk I ever layed my lips on 

IMO that is the reason for a late season. They have a controlled harvest  by giving them a few weeks to settle down into their winter areas. The late muzzy season can be feast  or famine in these areas. The area always hold elk but not  the #'s that are there in january. This also  is the time when they do the most damage to weyco land because of the depleted nutritional value of the available food sources they turn to eating the tree buds...... Imo

[WSU]

The whole point of such a long late hunt is to reduce the herds on there wintering grounds.... highly doubt there is that many elk hanging around in some of these areas in Sept or early Nov... Am I wrong ? All I can say is that cow my son got may be one of the best dang elk I ever layed my lips on 

Yes, you are wrong.  The vast majority of the area inside the hunting areas are not wintering grounds.  The elk live in these areas 12 months a year and, for the most part, are not migratory. 

[HntnFsh]

 

[wrongway]

 

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

So, this is the rub, I want herd size to increase, yet there I was applying for the new hunt to help keep my freezer full. I guess I am part of the problem?    If I was a better bull hunter maybe I would not apply for these types of hunts...

Do I fully trust that wildlife is sponsoring hunts that are needed to keep the herd healthy? 

Has greed caused me to apply for a hunt I am not sure needed to be exercised?   

I have nothing against exercising your rights as a citizen (any ethnic faction), it is anger against the WDFW that offers these, the reason they offer is twofold, to make applicants happy enough to continue to apply, but still feel that herd reduction would best be served by a BALANCED harvest, from all age classes, not HERD REDUCTION, by slaughtering the reproductive majority of the herd...
Figure it like this...
St Helens Herd = 13,000 animals (all inclusive units)
WDFW offers 500 cow permits a season for 3 years = 1300 cows killed (wdfw estimate of +/- 90% success on permits and non participants)
This reduces the herd the first year by 500, yet count out the 150-200 calves, (survival of newborns, and calf mortality in the first year of 30%) annually, takes 700 elk out of herd, so, next (2nd year) another 700, and the third, 700, total of 2,100 cows/calves.
Now the herd is +/- 10,000, a 30% reduction in TOTAL herd size, in only the permit areas, closer to an increase of OVER 100% harvest TOTAL IN THAT AREA !!, concentrating harvest in those areas, reduces future opportunity, while in areas without the harvest increase suffer a loss from herd dispersal, and in areas w/o the additional permits are already either under-hunted (due to access), or permit only there is only a minimal change in herd structure, Bull/cow ratio has been increased, yet due to low calf recruitment mostly mature (3+ y/o bulls) makes hunting better for branched bull harvest (further reducing herd size), now the WDFW has 8,000 Elk in the St.Helens herd, a few lucky hunters are happy about harvesting their animals in past seasons, but their kids say, ... The hunting sucks around here, why, back in the day, you saw them hanging in almost all the camps, the old guys complain about how there just is not the same "quality" of hunting, and everyone blames the WDFW (rightly so) and wonder   
IT IS SIMPLE MATH, REDUCE THE NUMBER OF BREEDING COWS = LESS ELK,  I will continue to say, offer a few days more season, give hunters more days to hunt = more animals harvested, cows still produce = still more animals for hunters... Why complain about losing days from ALL user groups, when we allow an already imbalanced Elk:Hunter ratio with more hunters than Elk, and the WDFW "manages" by herd reduction ?
That is just plain ignorant, and they all should study economics to understand the relationship between supply and demand.
More Elk = more days to hunt = increased harvest = happy hunters = more revenue...
Less Elk = decreased harvest = fewer days to hunt = unhappy hunters = more hunters hunting other states = less revenue 
If the herd needs reduction, open the season for more days GENERAL season, so EVERYONE can hunt !!
Again, it is all about making $$$ now, to hell with the future, 3 years from now, they will just open more "Watchable" wildlife areas, where you can park at a field and watch the birds and coyotes, read a sign about how the Elk "coexist" and the food cycle of a Salmon in the little creek that flows through, the life cycle of a tree..and wonder why there are no Elk standing there...