Federal and State Wildlife Agencies Destroying our Elk

[Elkaholic daWg]

 Thanks  to an Old Friend that left  this Site a while back....


Ed Bangs: Well, we needed wolves that knew how to make a living in an area like Yellowstone National Park. And so we began to think about where to get wolves that would know what an elk is, how to find one, and how to kill one—and where to get wolves that are used to living in cold mountainous terrain. All you have to do is look north of the border and you find that next to Banff National Park in Alberta, and a little bit farther north in British Columbia, you have such wolves

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/wolves-yellowstone.html



 PBS...wgbh Boston, so expect lies.

[Johnb317]

What a whitewash.  "the DNA is close"?   There has been considerable research about the origins of domestic dogs and wolves.   
The new journalism - ask only questions that support your position-  its the new science too.   The problem with all these people is they want things to be returned to what it was like before human encroachment, and that can't be done.   

Humans (and hunting) need to be in the equation. Very few wolf and tree huggers put their money into preservation of lands and wildlife.  They lobby for the govt to pay. 
Maybe we should do the same.   Wasn't it a hunter named teddy who started the national park system?

Sigh.   

[Bob33]

"And so we began to think about where to get wolves that would know what an elk is, how to find one, and how to kill one—"

Mission accomplished.

[Humptulips]

Amazing how facts get skewed. I don't think unintensionally either.
I read the interview from the link. In it Ed Bangs said there were 5 cattle and 5 sheep a year being lost to wolves.
From the USF&W own figures in the year of this interview, 1997, there were 22 cattle and 126 sheep that were confirmed wolf kills in the wolf recovery zones.
It would only go up from there, reaching a high of 944 confirmed wolf kills of domestic animals a year. Very important to note "confirmed wolf kills"

I wonder how his $19 million in additional economic activity because of wolves turned out?

[humanure]

Wasn't it a hunter named teddy who started the national park system?

It was Teddy who finally took the idea serious, but in reality, it was started by a small few, mostly spearheaded and conjured up originally by the great Aldo Leopold.

[GrainfedMuley]

Wasn't it a hunter named teddy who started the national park system?

It was Teddy who finally took the idea serious, but in reality, it was started by a small few, mostly spearheaded and conjured up originally by the great Aldo Leopold.

Blah, Blah, Blah...................

[dreamunelk]

Wasn't it a hunter named teddy who started the national park system?

It was Teddy who finally took the idea serious, but in reality, it was started by a small few, mostly spearheaded and conjured up originally by the great Aldo Leopold.

Wrong again!  The first national monument was Yellow Stone established by President Ulysses S. Grant.  Roosevelt took advantage of the antiquities act and established more.  So he did take it seriously.  However when this occurred Aldo Leopold was just starting his first year in college.

Aldo Leopold is responsible for establishing the North American model of Wildlife Management.  And wrote the first book on it.  While he was one of the first to realize that extirpating predators was a serious error.  He never once was against managing predator populations.

The Park System was established in 1916.  Aldo worked for the Forest Service at this time.

[humanure]

You are right on which president started it.

But even before his first year in college, Aldo had these idea's that people vastly disagreed with, but he shared them regardless because he felt in his heart was the best option for how things were going(he saw how things were gonna turn out. a man before his time). And yes, he was for predator management. I didn't dispute that. Sand County Almenac is a favorite book of mine.

[WAcoyotehunter]

You are right on which president started it.

But even before his first year in college, Aldo had these idea's that people vastly disagreed with, but he shared them regardless because he felt in his heart was the best option for how things were going(he saw how things were gonna turn out. a man before his time). And yes, he was for predator management. I didn't dispute that. Sand County Almenac is a favorite book of mine.

Aldo Leopold didn't have anything to do with the NPS.  He was certianly a visionary that understood natural systems and predator prey relationships.  I think he would be a little shocked to see our current problems.  The social aspect should never enter the equation.

[Elkaholic daWg]

Wasn't it a hunter named teddy who started the national park system?

It was Teddy who finally took the idea serious, but in reality, it was started by a small few, mostly spearheaded and conjured up originally by the great Aldo Leopold.

What does this have to do with wolves?

[WAcoyotehunter]

not much other than the park being ground zero for wolf recovery and being a 'test' for non human hunting wildlife management.

[humanure]

NPS were started because people like Leopold and others knew that if they didn't do something, the logging industry was gonna have their hands on all the forests and we would never have what we know as 'wild' life. If that had happened, hunting would have been terminated long ago and we would be seriously fuked beyond all hope. We truly would have become another England.

[Humptulips]

NPS were started because people like Leopold and others knew that if they didn't do something, the logging industry was gonna have their hands on all the forests and we would never have what we know as 'wild' life. If that had happened, hunting would have been terminated long ago and we would be seriously fuked beyond all hope. We truly would have become another England.

So the National Parks are the saviour of hunting.
That's certainly a different interpretation.

[humanure]

In a way, yes. It's the savior for a vast amount of things related to wildlife and the land we live in. I'm telling you, had it not been for the NPS.... *shudders* holy *censored* we would be so fuking eef'd. It would be worse than England/Ireland. I had friends from Ireland over a couple years ago, and before coming to my house, none of them had ever held a rifle in their lives. In fact, they got super freaked out because it's ILLEGAL to own firearms back in their home, and they thought they were about to be in trouble. That's what America would have been like without the NPS.

[Bob33]

NPS were started because people like Leopold and others knew that if they didn't do something, the logging industry was gonna have their hands on all the forests and we would never have what we know as 'wild' life. If that had happened, hunting would have been terminated long ago and we would be seriously fuked beyond all hope. We truly would have become another England.

We know that in spite of your protests to the contrary, you hate hunters.  Now you have added loggers to the list.  Please enlighten us: what is youe reference for claiming that national parks were developed as protection against logging?

[humanure]

I don't hate anyone. I disagree with some people, but i don't hate. Hate is for bigots and homophobes. My best friend is an avid long-bowman and hunter. I don't hate him. Plus I hunt as well. So to break it down(again), I love hunting, I love the skill that it brings. However, I disagree with alot of methods and attributes that some other hunters hold.

As for the NPS, it's because people, like Leopold, saw how things were being handled in a strict 'for-profit' sense, and knew that if our forests were not protected or at least restricted from logging companies and certain 'game' organizations, our wildlife, natural landscape and resources would have fallen in the wake of so-called progress. The government and the departments in charge of wildlife only looked at the landscape as a means to make money, without caring for the eco/biology and how we were going to effect it. So many out in the field, like Leopold, who had an understanding of wildlife and The Sanitation Effect saw what was to come and acted before it was too late. My reference is The Sand County Almanac.

[Bob33]

I don't hate anyone. I disagree with some people, but i don't hate. Hae is for bigots and homophobes. My best friend is an avid long-bowman and hunter. I don't hate him. Plus I hunt as well. So to break it down(again), I love hunting, I love the skill that it brings. However, I disagree with alot of methods and attributes that some other hunters hold.

As for the NPS, it's because people, like Leopold, saw how things were being handled in a strict 'for-profit' sense, and knew that if our forests were not protected or at least restricted from logging companies and certain 'game' organizations, our wildlife, natural landscape and resources would have fallen in the wake of so-called progress. The government and the departments in charge of wildlife only looked at the landscape as a means to make money, without caring for the eco/biology and how we were going to effect it. So many out in the field, like Leopold, who had an understanding of wildlife and The Sanitation Effect saw what was to come and acted before it was too late.

You didn't answer the question.  What is your reference for claiming that national parks were developed as protection against logging? 

[humanure]

I re-edited and said "The Sand County Almanac". I'll add various Leopold biographies and books of how the NPS and wildlife conservation was started. The logging companies had to be held back from having all of out forests in their death-grip's.

[humanure]

I'm not naive and hate the logging industry. To live, we need that resource. But I am aware that they base their motives on money.

[Bob33]

I re-edited and said "The Sand County Almanac". I'll add various Leopold biographies and books of how the NPS and wildlife conservation was started. The logging companies had to be held back from having all of out forests in their death-grip's.

Interesting.  Sand County Almanac was published in 1949, right before the first national park was established as protection against logging.

Thanks for the history lesson. 

[humanure]

Yes, of course! Thats where I get my reference of how things were going leading up to the decision to create something like the NPS.

[humanure]

The other Leopold biographies and books on US conservation painted a broader stroke of what went on before and after. But it's Sand County where you get the story leading up to it by one of the guys who was part of it all, who was there.

[Humptulips]

In a way, yes. It's the savior for a vast amount of things related to wildlife and the land we live in. I'm telling you, had it not been for the NPS.... *shudders* holy *censored* we would be so fuking eef'd. It would be worse than England/Ireland. I had friends from Ireland over a couple years ago, and before coming to my house, none of them had ever held a rifle in their lives. In fact, they got super freaked out because it's ILLEGAL to own firearms back in their home, and they thought they were about to be in trouble. That's what America would have been like without the NPS.

You really do need to look at a map especially an old one from say the 60s. There are large parts of the US where there were no NPs in the 60s and that is mostly true today if you throw out all the developed Monuments.
Hunting seemed to thrive in those places in spite of this lack of NPs.
Tell me more about how the NPS defends our Second Amendment rights.

[GrainfedMuley]

The other Leopold biographies and books on US conservation painted a broader stroke of what went on before and after. But it's Sand County where you get the story leading up to it by one of the guys who was part of it all, who was there.

Blah, Blah, Blah...............................

[bearpaw]

I'm not naive and hate the logging industry. To live, we need that resource. But I am aware that they base their motives on money.

What kind of ******** are you. The reason any business exists is to make money. The reason anyone even works is to make money, that includes any agency, WDFW, NPS, USFS, or any other agency, people are there to make money, take away the money they would leave the agency. The reason the US has existed as a strong nation is because people want to make money and succeed. Nearly everyone in my family has worked in the logging industry and there is more game in NE Washington because of logging. You will have a hard time proving otherwise since the NE has the best hunting in the state for many big and small game species.

Your lack of intelligence is simply astounding.....

[Special T]

Funny how some people don't realize that clear cuts and selective logging is GOOD because ti provied grasses and other forage for deer and elk.  COVER is important, but FOOD is more important.... 

[WAcoyotehunter]

I agree that food is important and logging provides plenty of that, but thermal cover and escape cover are also critical.  Balance is the key to robust and sustainable populations.

Funny how some people don't realize that clear cuts and selective logging is GOOD because ti provied grasses and other forage for deer and elk.  COVER is important, but FOOD is more important.... 

[Special T]

The best kind of cover is EDGE  habitat... Logging can be a great tool to create lots of  artifical medows or food.  Lots of the thick stands of doghair, or lodgepole pine on the hillsides great great "thermal" cover due to its ability to protect and ddropp wind. 

[bearpaw]

For years I heard loggers getting a bad rap about clearcuts. Most of the loggers and landowners I know prefer selective cutting to get maximum growth. You can log every ten years when done properly and this keeps cover and encourages forage growth while at the same time getting maximum growth of forests.

The large clearcuts that gave logging a black eye were the product of the USFS prefferred techniques and big logging companies.

Modern clear cuts are often done on small acreages and much logging is selective cut with no clear cutting. Modern mozaic patterns of logging provides everything that most animals need.

[asl20bball]

Lack of logging = lack of forest managment which indirectly is a lack of game management as the sun light allows vegitation to grow for animals. When logging is done properly it benefits so many things. To say otherwise is simply a lack of education and understanding.

[humanure]

Exactly! Selective and edge logging are great methods. I was criticising the logging methods from the early 1900's when their methods weren't being regulated. Hell, I probably wouldn't have seen as much elk growing up had it not been for the clearcut nearby where I lived then.

I don't disagree with making money(since I work to make money). But it's the old ethics-thrown-to-the-wayside-over-monetary-gain attitude that I critisize.

As far at the NE having the best hunting, I never disputed that either.

[TikkaT3-270Shortmag]

I think logging got a bad reputation for destroying or harming  habitat along streams. Things are much different these days due to "buffers" which are based on the level of stream or river it is.

[Special T]

I'm not naive and hate the logging industry. To live, we need that resource. But I am aware that they base their motives on money.

Exactly! Selective and edge logging are great methods. I was criticising the logging methods from the early 1900's when their methods weren't being regulated. Hell, I probably wouldn't have seen as much elk growing up had it not been for the clearcut nearby where I lived then.

Its hard to hate the loggin industry when so much is needed from them, and they can use proper techniques to maximise $$$ and environment.

Your often contradictory statements make it hard to believe you know much of what you are talking about, or why we benefit from your statements.

[humanure]

I don't think any of that is contradictory. The buffers and better methods were put in place because people saw how careless the logging industry was being. Like anything in life and industry, things have to be monitored. I don't feel the logging industry should be dismantled, but it needs to stay regulated and under a close eye. Even today logging companies break rules from time to time.

[villageidiot]

Not to worry.  The Logging industry is watched closer than you can imagine.  They can't make a single move without the contract administrator knowing about it.  If you see a bad logging job on federal or state land it is not the logger that is responsible. The logger only does what he is told by the federal or state.  They show up sometimes every single day to make sure the logger does not make one single wrong turn.  One logger I know even got a ticket from them for spraying a rock about the size of a softball trying to get his paint can to work that the forest service requires him to spray on the end of every single log.  Just last week  a friend got shut down for not having only 250 foot of hose on his hose reel instead of 500 feet.  Yes they are required to have all their fire equipment even now in the snow.  They are required to have a 300 gallon water tank with 500 ft. of hose.  At present the water freezes at night and by the way it takes 300 gallons of water to fill a 500 foot hose.  Brilliant!   Get one drop out the end and your out of water because the hose is full.    Whew