Possible new AKC Grand Field Champion title.....

[jetjockey]

I just got a group email and it looks like the AKC is considering a new title for pointing breeds. The new title would be Grand Field Champion and Amateur Grand Field Champion. A dog would have to be a FC or AFC first, and then only points in 1 hour trials would go towards the GFC or AGFC title. Not sure it will come to fruition, but I certainly hope it does.

In the brittany world, since there is a lot of emphasis on dual dogs, many of the FC titles, and trials get watered down. Last year there was even a push to get rid of the requirement that a dog must have a 3 point major win to achieve a FC. Ive heard stories of trainers being told by some clubs that trials were full, just so they wouldn't enter their dogs and take most of the points. Because of that, a lot more credit is given to dogs who also have American Field Championships to their name. The problem is that not all of the 1 hour trials are dual sanctioned championships, so with the exception of points awarded for the dog of the year awards, there is no difference between a dog that wins a 1 hr trial or a dog who wins a 1/2 hr trial. Because the 1 hour trials have points awarded for dog of the year awards, there will basically be no way to water those down because the pro's won't skip those trials. Plus, it takes a LOT more dog to run all out for 1 hour then it does for 30 minutes.

I sure hope the AKC jumps on this. It will take some of the politics out of trialing and give a distinction to the truely great dogs.

For those who don't trial or don't understand the confusing points system, Ill try and help explain it a little. Just remember, all breeds are a little different. Brittanys aren't required to place or win in a retrieving trial like GSP's and some of the other breeds, but I think the point system for an AKC FC is basically the same among all breeds.

To obtain a FC title, a dog needs 10 points from either 1/2 hour or 1 hour trials, there is no difference between the two. A dog gets 5 points for winning a trial with 25 or more dogs, and can get 2 points for placing second with 25 or more dogs. A dog gets 4 points for a win with 20-24 dog, 3 points with 15-19 dogs, and 2 points with 10-14 dogs. A dog can bring two points forward from puppy and derby trials provided they win a trial with at least 10 dogs in it. So, a young dog who wins a puppy and derby trial that both had 10 or more dogs, could bring forward a total of 4 points towards the 10 total needed for an FC title. But, if a derby aged dog wins 5 trials all with more then 10 dogs, they can still only bring 2 derby points forward. That is the reason a lot of young dogs get pulled from puppy or derby once they achieve their points.

For the dog of the year award like the Purina All Age dog of the year and the Tri-Tronics Shooting dog award the points are calculated a little different. When you hear someone say they have the #1 All Age dog in the country, or say something like "my dog is in the top 15 in the country", they are usually refering to one of the awards from their breed.

Those points are calculated yearly and calculated only for 1 hour trials. Heres the breakdown for those points.
1st.. 8 X number of dogs started
2nd 6 X number of dogs started
3rd 4 X number of dogs started
4th 2 X number of dogs started

[Happy Gilmore]

AKC is targeting people with highly disposable incomes by adding more titles and encouraging people to keep playing games once a title has been achieved. The only way people with money to blow will keep playing is to add higher level titles. It is and has happened in vitually every AKC venue across the board. Hunt tests, obedience, rally, conformance etc.....


Most people chasing higher level titles have their dogs professionally trained and handled. Professional trainers and handlers typically have influential contacts and they definately want higher level titles which are difficult to achieve to protect their livelihoods.

[jetjockey]

And there is nothing wrong with that.  Luckily, it doesn't sound like they plan on changing any of the requirements to achieve a FC or AFC.  It's a personal choice and it helps the truly great dogs get more exposure.  The people looking to pin a dual on a mediocre hunting dog can still do it.  Hell, it might even make it easier.  The only people I think you will hear complain are those who have FC's that aren't capable enough to run against the best dogs for an hour to achieve a GFC. Having a GFC title might make a FC look a little less impressive, but in the Brit world we already do that since the Championships are dual sanctioned by the AKC and American Field.  My dog achieved her FC before she was 2 1/2, but she is only a 1X Runner Up AmFld champion, and 1X AmFld Derby champion.  The American Field Championships are a heck of a lot harder to achieve.  It isn't hard to pin a FC on a dog if you pick the right trials........ 

BTW Happy.  The winningest Brittany on the circuit right now who is the 3X back to back to back All Age dog of the year, National Champion, RU Amateur National Champion, FC and AFC has been 100% amateur trained and campaigned until this year when the owner injured himself and put the dog with a Pro for a few months.........   I don't see any drawback to the AKC adding a Grand Field Champion title to the mix.

[Happy Gilmore]

Didn't say there was anything wrong with it. The only downfall is that "most" pro trained dogs do not have owners who are very active in the sports.

Non-active owners means that "most" pro's bring little to the table and make a living off of volunteers running field trials and hunt tests on weekends. The higher level of titles pro's chase with their dogs means the more focused they become on winning/passing. With this focus means less and less owner involvment which leads to the bottom line of fewer and fewer people volunteering to put on field trials and hunt tests.

With fewer people involved, more volunteers getting burned out putting on events for a truck load of pro trained dogs, the sport dies.

[jetjockey]

I'm going to disagree to a certain extent. Pros bring two VERY important things.   Money, and dogs!  Just because owners can't travel all over to follow their dogs does not make them inactive.  They open their check books every trial they enter their dogs in.  Many of the trials barely breaking even now days.  Without entry's from Pros, a lot of trials would disappear.  Besides, when a pro shows up to a trial with 20-30 dogs, it's hard enough to keep then from overlapping braces, let alone asking them to help with a dog wagon or planting birds.  However, every trial I have been to the Pros still help out.  I've seen Pros run dog wagons, plant birds, judge, and even shoeing other people horses for them.  Every Pro I know realizes that trialing numbers are continually declining and they need to help out to keep their profession viable.  Some times they can't do much because they often run so many dogs, but make no mistake about it those entry fees are greatly needed.....   As an owner, I have run dog wagons, planted birds, and my wife and I already have volunteered ourselves for a Low Country boil next spring at the first trial we can attend.  My dog will run in the championship during the week and I'll run her in the amateur during the weekend.  The guy who puts on the entire trial has anywhere between 6-10 dogs with the trainer and he will be busting his butt to make sure everything turns out. 

I have always said that not all Field Champions are created equal.  Adding another level will simply separate they good ones from the great ones.  I don't see how that will lower entry's at trials in any way.

[Happy Gilmore]

Some pro's help. Those that do make a big difference. And not just at National's but, more importantly at small weekend trials/tests. Adding 20 dogs to a trial just requires more volunteers, more expensive birds and more days at expensive grounds especially, for Pointer FT where you are required to run specified amounts of time and there is only soo much daylight and ability to run X amount of braces.

Pro's think they bring all the money to the clubs but, with less dogs, there is a lot less cost and overhead. Profit doesn't need to be as high. My opinion is that pro's with more than a certain number of dogs should be required to bring a helper for the clubs.

Professionals making money off of non-profit organizations should be a little more gracious in many cases. Although, Pointer trials just don't have the worker/help requirements that it takes to put on a retriever HT/trial. Grounds, birds, coffee and a few judges....not too difficult.

[jetjockey]

Happy, I'm curious how many AKC or AF Horseback trials you have attended.  Based on your comments several months ago where you didn't know what American Field was, I'm going to guess none.  You seem to forget that it costs a lot of money to get decent grounds.  Throw in needed up to twelve judges who often need horses, and you have no idea what it takes to put on a horseback trial.  You forgot about people to run the dog wagon, road crossing blockers, people to bring hay, food (at HB trials they typically have lunches and dinners on the grounds), people to clean the clubhouses, money to rent the clubhouses if it's not included in the rental.  What about getting horses from point A to B?   At the AKC nationals at Ames the afternoon breakaway was 5 miles from the morning breakaway at the clubhouse.  Believe me, you see WAY more trials cancelled because of lack of entry's then you see full trials.  Many of the AKC trials that don't have championships associated with them are disappearing because Pros aren't showing up and they don't have enough entry's to cover the costs.   Come talk to me when you've ridden a couple HB trials and then tell me they aren't much work to put on.

[Happy Gilmore]

I volunteered for three days setting up and riding planting birds at Sulfur Creek Ranch a couple months ago. Not nearly the set up, amount of people or equipment required that I'm used to doing 5-8 times a year for retrievers depending upon how many other clubs trials I go and volunteer at.

I know nothing about the rules of pointer trials american field or otherwise. I just showed up to work.


Still the same holds true. The fewer Am's running their own dogs means the sport is weakened by more pro's. Simply due to workers. If 20 Am's show up with a dog or two a piece they usually have a spouse etc that is probably almost 40 people at the trial. When a pro shows up with 20 dogs, their owners typically are there with their hands off the sport (in their pockets) to watch and don't provide the level of help(which reduces costs) versus a pro just rolling in and running dogs.

When you've run a club for a few years that puts on events with about 4X the entries a pointer field trial has, you might have a better understanding.

And, don't get me wrong, (edit here to clarify) LOTS of Pro's help out and volunteer a lot of their time. I'm complaining more about the offset of volunteers helping and people showing up to support the clubs where their dogs may be running. I train with Pro's, I'm friends with a lot of Pro's and many help out whenever I ask BUT, I try very hard NOT to ask them to help because I know they are busy. I just wish more PEOPLE(dog owners) would get involved. That is my main point. Not pro-bashing.

[Happy Gilmore]

How many trials did your dog run last year?

How many trials did you attend and volunteer to work at where your dog was running?

[jetjockey]

Maybe where you are they don't help, but believe me, Pros and amateurs help out here on the East coast and in the Midwest help out a lot whenever they can.  Again, HB trials are much different the. What you are used to, especially when you throw in championships.  Weekend trials don't exist out here with the exception of a few clubs with great membership.  My dog ran in 6 hour trials and one weekend trial this spring.  I attended the weekend trial and also ran my dog.  I helped with the dog wagon for two of the trials, there were about 120 entry's and the trial LOST money!   The thing you don't realize is that in the HB game, amateurs RARELY have one dog on a string.  HB is in a whole different world when it comes to cost, especially at the top level.  I would have loved to see my dog run a lot more, but since the circuit took her to GA, AL, TN, OH, IL, and NE, it's kinda hard to make every trial, especially when she only runs in 1hr trials that usually occur during the week.  I did help out at every trial I could drive to however.  Btw. I just looked at all the trials my dog ran in and they averaged about 130 total entry's per trial.   

[Happy Gilmore]

Maybe where you are they don't help, but believe me, Pros and amateurs help out here on the East coast and in the Midwest help out a lot whenever they can.  Again, HB trials are much different the. What you are used to, especially when you throw in championships.  Weekend trials don't exist out here with the exception of a few clubs with great membership.  My dog ran in 6 hour trials and one weekend trial this spring.  I attended the weekend trial and also ran my dog.  I helped with the dog wagon for two of the trials, there were about 120 entry's and the trial LOST money!   The thing you don't realize is that in the HB game, amateurs RARELY have one dog on a string.  HB is in a whole different world when it comes to cost, especially at the top level.  I would have loved to see my dog run a lot more, but since the circuit took her to GA, AL, TN, OH, IL, and NE, it's kinda hard to make every trial, especially when she only runs in 1hr trials that usually occur during the week.  I did help out at every trial I could drive to however.  Btw. I just looked at all the trials my dog ran in and they averaged about 130 total entry's per trial.   

Example of a retriever hunt test..... Oregon Hunting Retriever Club had about 450 entries last Memorial Day Weekend.

[jetjockey]

What's your point, it's a hunt test, not a field trial.  An AA championship can usually run 12 dogs a day.  Its totally different.  Hell, the AF Nationals run 4 dogs a day, 2 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon.  90% of the MH in the pointing dog world can't hold a candle to a HB dog.  I've seen it, a friend of mine has a nice little MH that couldn't cut it in the HB world, so he pinned a MH on it instead.  Nice little dog, not much run.

[Happy Gilmore]

What's your point, it's a hunt test, not a field trial.  An AA championship can usually run 12 dogs a day.  Its totally different.  Hell, the AF Nationals run 4 dogs a day, 2 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon.  90% of the MH in the pointing dog world can't hold a candle to a HB dog.  I've seen it, a friend of mine has a nice little MH that couldn't cut it in the HB world, so he pinned a MH on it instead.  Nice little dog, not much run.

My point is the need for help via the people who run in trials and ht. When 450 entries show up, logistically set up and tear down literally takes a small army of volunteers. Not sure how a big running dog has much to do with higher titles and participation in the sport which increases the potential for viability of the sport into the future.

If Pro's are all that is left running dogs in the future....the sport is done until they can find a way to support it financially by hiring all the help to put on a trial. That will further eliminate the ability for the average guy to be able to put a single title on a dog let alone a higher title.

[jetjockey]

Happy, your still trying to compare HB trials to hunt tests.  They are a different animal.  Yes, HB trials are going the way of the Pro.  There are many reasons, but people just aren't raised on the farm anymore with horses.  HB trials aren't going away, but they are changing.  AmFLd started out with a couple of farmers who wanted to see who had the best dogs.  Now with very few exceptions, if you want ANY chance of competing in the AF Pointer world, you better have LOTS of money and a really good Pro.  Entry fees can easily be over $300 and purses between $10,000 and $15,000 are not uncommon.  I believe the AF Nationals is a $20,000 all or nothing purse.  Dogs who win it sell for up to $50,000 afterwords. AKC has been going the same direction.  Less amateur and weekend trials and more championships.  If they want to try and compete with AF they will have no choice but to adjust.  The interesting thing is the trials with the most entry's are the AA Championships.  And rarely does a true amateur win.  If the weekend people want trials, they NEED the support from Pros.  Hell, people were complaining about cluster trials because they couldn't get enough dogs to run a trial if they were within 500 miles of the cluster trials because the Pros were all at the cluster trials.  Now days, without Pros, very few clubs can get enough entry's to run a trial, especially a closed breed trial.  That's why you are seeing more all breed trials.  That wouldn't happen if they had enough of a certain breed to fill a trial.  The most important thing clubs need right now is money and entrys.  Without dogs, it doesn't matter how many volunteers a club has.  And believe me, Pros will find championships to run in.  Its a lot different world out here in pointing breed land of the Midwest and southeast.  There's a reason the bird dog hall of fame is located in Grand Junction TN and Waynesbor GA is considered the bird dog capital of the world.

[wildweeds]

Played the game.wrote the checks.drove the dog truck,hauled the water,tended to birds,loaded birdbags..................... had a great dog that rates in the top ten of all dogs handled in a 30 year carreer of training/handling.HB AKC FT are really nothing more than a owner sport IMO.I've seen ALOT of FC's that I can guarantee have not had a wild bird killed over them in a hunting situation.If they want to not make a FC title so "Cheap" they need to get rid of the 4 points available from puppy and derby stakes.Or they could just add a number in front of the title like nstra or af.My Fc would be a 3X ,Another good one died the other day from some unknown ailment and he would have been a 5X,Another would be a 4x.All of those dogs were great dogs who were almost never bred,Setter people will not breed to a dog they have seen or compete against,they would rather breed to an american field dog that they have never seen.
Closed breed stakes can be to blame for less than stellar FC specimens also.

  I've got the run em all no matter the breed and see what shakes out mindset.I remember a trial where Bluemoon handled a NAFC pointer braced with a 2X NFC.FC vizla and that was an exciting brace to watch,neither were slouches,fact is that stake was extremely talented,5 different nfc breed champions,and a slew of other fc's and dogs with placements .

 Grand Champeen title is nothing more than a way for the AKC to make more money.