I need a 400 yard deer gun. Here’s my options......

[builtfordtough]

30-06 all day for me too. I shoot a 165 Remington core lock. Gun is a model 700 Remington with a leaupold 2x10 scope. Have had it for over 20 yrs now. Haven't adjusted my scope in yrs. Went to the gun range a few weeks ago and shot 180 grains through it and it was  1" to the left and 1" low.  Decided on my big bull hunt I would stay with the trusted 165 grain. Last week shot a 7x7 in the colokolum day 2 of my hunt. First shot double lunged at 337 yrds and second shot was at 367 yrds and broke 2 ribs going in and 3 out. Dropped him in his tracks. No meat loss and the bullets went exactly where I was aiming.

[yorketransport]

243 has plenty of energy for deer past 500 even with 95gr bullets.  Get some trigger time and a decent scope and it will do fine.

A 165 gr. .308 (.30-'06) has approximately 50% more kinetic energy at 400 yards than a .95 gr. .243, with a bullet like a Winchester silver tip.

Kinetic energy doesn’t kill stuff.

That's about as naive a statement as I've seen on here.  If a hunter is going to shoot an animal at 400 yards, he had better have adequate energy to compensate for less than perfect shot placement.  If the round he is shooting has minimal energy to do the job, then he had better be very selective in the shots he takes...............and most hunters are NOT.  And, the .243 falls into the category of minimal kinetic energy to kill a deer at 400 yards with perfect shot placement.

Read this:

Kinetic energy, the ability to do work (or in this case damage), is the most common measure of killing power for rifle bullets.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_killing_power.htm

Again, 400 yards just isn't that far for anyone who practices even occasionally. Not to mention that I see hunters taking more bad shots at close range than they do at long range.

Choose your source material carefully, this is a direct copy and paste from the link you posted. You left out part of the section you quoted.

Energy and killing power

Kinetic energy, the ability to do work (or in this case damage), is the most common measure of killing power for rifle bullets. And it is, in fact, a reasonable indicator. But it is by no means the only factor, or even the most important factor. Energy gives us an idea of how much power there is to initiate things like bullet expansion and penetration, but does not guarantee that they will occur.

The argument over kinetic energy, momentum, optimum game weight formulas, Taylor knockout values or killing power as measured in units of of pixie dust per acre are all just arbitrary numbers. Animals die because the oxygen supply has been cut off to the brain. Than can happen as a result of damage to the CNS which causes the brain to stop functioning, or by stopping the flow of oxygen to the brain through lack of blood. A bullet into a deer's heart at 400 yards from a 243 Win will kill just as well as a bullet from a 416 Rigby at the same distance. Bullet performance has a much greater influence on lethality than any numerical value ever will.

To the OP, go out and practice with whichever gun shoots better for you and have fun. Hitting an 8" target at 400 yards under field conditions isn't that tough.

[300rum]

I remember when I was a kid hunting with all of my relatives many you would call "old-timers".  They carried lever actions, other's had bolt rifles without a scope, some had bolt guns with fixed scopes.  A few of them, seemed to be the same ones, always shot real nice bucks.  Bucks on the run, neck shots, across canyons with Iron sights, basically things you can't do now because the gun magazines tell us you can't.   

After the hunt they all sat around the fire talking kinetic energy (not).   

What happened is that we used to have a nation of rifleman.  Not Riflesmen, as in plural rifles, they had one rifle and had it for many, many years and knew how to use it.  The gun magazines made us Tiffany and Co. hunters and an Apple app. now makes us shooters. 

There are literally guys on here who pull out a telephone, a range finder, and a kestrel to shoot a deer.  Here's a secret, you don't need to do that! 

[RockChuck]

Well said  but what’s the fun in only one choice?? 

[Igor]

243 has plenty of energy for deer past 500 even with 95gr bullets.  Get some trigger time and a decent scope and it will do fine.

A 165 gr. .308 (.30-'06) has approximately 50% more kinetic energy at 400 yards than a .95 gr. .243, with a bullet like a Winchester silver tip.

Kinetic energy doesn’t kill stuff.

That's about as naive a statement as I've seen on here.  If a hunter is going to shoot an animal at 400 yards, he had better have adequate energy to compensate for less than perfect shot placement.  If the round he is shooting has minimal energy to do the job, then he had better be very selective in the shots he takes...............and most hunters are NOT.  And, the .243 falls into the category of minimal kinetic energy to kill a deer at 400 yards with perfect shot placement.

Read this:

Kinetic energy, the ability to do work (or in this case damage), is the most common measure of killing power for rifle bullets.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_killing_power.htm

Again, 400 yards just isn't that far for anyone who practices even occasionally. Not to mention that I see hunters taking more bad shots at close range than they do at long range.

Choose your source material carefully, this is a direct copy and paste from the link you posted. You left out part of the section you quoted.

Energy and killing power

Kinetic energy, the ability to do work (or in this case damage), is the most common measure of killing power for rifle bullets. And it is, in fact, a reasonable indicator. But it is by no means the only factor, or even the most important factor. Energy gives us an idea of how much power there is to initiate things like bullet expansion and penetration, but does not guarantee that they will occur.

The argument over kinetic energy, momentum, optimum game weight formulas, Taylor knockout values or killing power as measured in units of of pixie dust per acre are all just arbitrary numbers. Animals die because the oxygen supply has been cut off to the brain. Than can happen as a result of damage to the CNS which causes the brain to stop functioning, or by stopping the flow of oxygen to the brain through lack of blood. A bullet into a deer's heart at 400 yards from a 243 Win will kill just as well as a bullet from a 416 Rigby at the same distance. Bullet performance has a much greater influence on lethality than any numerical value ever will.

To the OP, go out and practice with whichever gun shoots better for you and have fun. Hitting an 8" target at 400 yards under field conditions isn't that tough.

I chose my source material VERY carefully.  As to leaving part out, that is why I posted a link, so anyone interested could read the entire article if they chose to do so.   

As far as putting "A bullet into a deer's heart at 400 yards".........that is downright laughable.  I have spent a lot of time on rifle ranges in my lifetime, and the majority of hunters I have seen are totally satisfied with shooting a 3"-4" group at 100 yards......not exactly a heart-sized group at 400 yards.  You just keep smokin' that pixie dust.

[Bill W]

If the heart area is defined as the heart and the nearby arteries coming from the heart then I'm a pixie dust smoker.  I can hit that area.   Back when I was a High Power shooter we could put 10 rounds in that area rapid fire at 300 yards.  No 400 yard targets were part of the discipline.

[buckfvr]

Pretty clear there are guys here at both ends of the spectrum where ability/skill is concerned.  Also guys who hang out at the wrong ranges if satisfaction comes from 4" groups. 

Too much bs here for the op to make any good decisions unless he ignores most of the bs in this post.  Hunting isnt everything.......its just part of the shooting sports.  For those of us that enjoy shooting A LOT year'round, learning all their equipment as well as becoming efficient with it, 400 yards is nothing........Killing deer at 400 yards is slam dunk.  Twice that far.  If a shooter decides to use his Kestrel and his phone, so what......cheat sheets are faster. 

We're all hunters and shooters to different degrees so this one up, my way is the right way, is a bunch of crap.

[fishngamereaper]

Besides basics like body position, trigger control, breathing etc... ballistics are an important factor obviously..most well placed shots from any caliber will kill most any size animal... but it's best to put as much energy down range as you can given your available options..also taking into environmental conditions such as wind, angle of the shot etc...how many people practice in full value wind. What's 15 mph do to a 95 grn bullet at 400 yds... enough to make it a bad shot.

Ya, 400 yds is not that far, if you've been shooting to a mile. But if your a 200 yd shooter you owe it to the animal to practice out to 500-600 so 400 is easy.. imo

[mountainman]

Besides basics like body position, trigger control, breathing etc... ballistics are an important factor obviously..most well placed shots from any caliber will kill most any size animal... but it's best to put as much energy down range as you can given your available options..also taking into environmental conditions such as wind, angle of the shot etc...how many people practice in full value wind. What's 15 mph do to a 95 grn bullet at 400 yds... enough to make it a bad shot.

Ya, 400 yds is not that far, if you've been shooting to a mile. But if your a 200 yd shooter you owe it to the animal to practice out to 500-600 so 400 is easy.. imo

Well said

[HarboritE]

Dang guys !! So much good info and so many opinions. I can absolutely sift through a little bs and take away a lot from this thread. The most obvious..... practice a lot. I can do that. I think changing my shooting habits a bit will help as well. I’m glad to see the overall opinion is not to guy buy a $1000 scope, at least not yet. Again everyone, thank you for all of your insight.  300rum particularly thank you for taking the time to provide those tips

[Dan-o]

Enjoy!

I think you'll find it a rewarding experience to stretch out your distance.

[Igor]

Dang guys !! So much good info and so many opinions. I can absolutely sift through a little bs and take away a lot from this thread. The most obvious..... practice a lot. I can do that. I think changing my shooting habits a bit will help as well. I’m glad to see the overall opinion is not to guy buy a $1000 scope, at least not yet. Again everyone, thank you for all of your insight.  300rum particularly thank you for taking the time to provide those tips

Best wishes on your shooting/hunting endeavors.  It's definitely a learning process, and half the fun is just getting to a spot where you are totally comfortable with your equipment. 

If you don't already reload, I would encourage you to think about it.  I have been reloading rifle ammo for  over 40 years, and that hobby is rewarding in itself.  There are always new things to learn, and taking game with loads you have developed is quite gratifying.

[Alchase]

If you don't already reload, I would encourage you to think about it.  I have been reloading rifle ammo for  over 40 years, and that hobby is rewarding in itself.  There are always new things to learn, and taking game with loads you have developed is quite gratifying.

 
When you start shooting 100+ rounds a week, it gets expensive fast!
Reloading is a very time intensive hobby, at least it was for me. It was also one of the first hobbies to go when I got remarried. 
Now I get complaints about how much ammo I buy 

[HawkCreek]

My personal limit is 400 yards. I can reliably make good hits further but I'm not a long range hunter. I prefer getting closer. I use an old beat up Remington 700 ADL in .30-06 with a well used 3-9 VariX-II, 400 yards is pretty easy with that gun but then again I've had it since I was 15 so it's a familiar friend to me.

[jrebel]

Nice optics that have the ability to dial MOA or Mill will help any hunter that wants to shoot past 300 yards.  I recently (within the last 10 years) got in the game of long range shooting.  There is a learning curve but once you educate yourself....it really isn't rocket science out to 600 yards.  Things you will have to learn and make decisions on....First or Second focal plane, MOA or Mill, your ballistics and velocity of desired rounds and wind.  All the other stuff that everyone will tell you is important is not really relevant unless you are really reaching out to 7-800 plus yards......(elevation, temp, Coriolis effect, etc.....

Like said earlier...you will need a rangefinder too. 

I only dial if I am past 300 yards....Most rifles if zeroed at 200, will make easy work to 300 with a little practice.  Practice, Practice, Practice.....trigger time is hands down the most important aspect of any shooting. 

Between your two rifles....I would pick the 06.  With that said...this looks like and excuse to buy a new one!!      300 win mag topped with a nightforce SHV 4-14 or 5-20 will do you just fine.