Another Mule deer study

[Skyvalhunter]

When I grow up I wanna be like Rainier10!!! Thanks for your dedication!!! 
I just gotta grow up... My wife tells me that all the time... 

I think your boy said it too!!

[Rainier10]

When I grow up I wanna be like Rainier10!!! Thanks for your dedication!!! 
I just gotta grow up... My wife tells me that all the time... 

You are already just as passionate as I am.  We all do our part in one way or another.  I am blessed to have the finances to do it on a big scale but everyone that buys hunting gear, guns and ammo are technically helping hunters and wildlife with every purchase.  Being involved with the season setting process helps.  Every little bit helps.

[Rainier10]

Sounds like they wrapped up netting deer for the year. 22 more collars, purple ear tags, last year was white.  Hoping by late spring they have all moved on and just the local deer are hanging out here.

[Karl Blanchard]

Sounds like they wrapped up netting deer for the year. 22 more collars, purple ear tags, last year was white.  Hoping by late spring they have all moved on and just the local deer are hanging out here.

thanks for the update rainier 

[Jingles]

Sounds like they wrapped up netting deer for the year. 22 more collars, purple ear tags, last year was white.  Hoping by late spring they have all moved on and just the local deer are hanging out here.

They either finished or are waiting for another chopper after crashing
 the one in Winthrop

[wolfbait]

The Methow has a plenty of "habitat" just not many deer..

Primary reason for ungulate decimation is overstocked predators, they can "study" migration routes etc. till the cows come home, but it they don't control the predation there won't be anything left to migrate.

[Alan K]

It seems like the biologists are always looking for some obscure cog in the wheel to blame population struggles on, while always glossing over the direct take. They ignore the problems that unchecked predator populations have had, be it wolves, bears, cougars, and humans in the case of ungulates, or seals and humans on salmon.

I think it comes down to their begging for study funding. The studies already show that predators take an exorbitant amount of game. They have to find new things to study in order to secure funding. Tough to get grant or landowner money to study something that has already been established. It's like needing a study in 2021 to understand the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.  Nobody is going to throw money at that study.

[bigmacc]

The Methow has a plenty of "habitat" just not many deer..

Primary reason for ungulate decimation is overstocked predators, they can "study" migration routes etc. till the cows come home, but it they don't control the predation there won't be anything left to migrate.

  BINGO,

We know of 20 or so migration routes give or take(some blend together at certain points), we know where most originate, where they stage, where they stall and where they end depending on snow depth and temps. Those routes back in the 50,s and 60,s had thousands of deer move through in a 3-4 day period when the time hit, 70,s and 80,s, still thousands, in the 90,s the numbers started to decline noticeably. The early 2000,s, the largest numbers we seen come through one particular area was around 300 over 4 days, went into that same area a few years ago and counted 41 over 4 days, this last year 11. you see the trend. Back in the 90,s predators began being coddled, how their numbers were controlled became restricted and the wolf was "officially" on the scene. Don't even get me started on some of the migrations my dad used to see or what my great grandparents witnessed going back to the early 1900,s, my great grandma and grandpa seen one migration in the Methow back in the early 20,s or 30,s I believe that they watched come down a particular ridge that numbered over 2000 and took over 3 hours for the herd to pass. Theres a study for them(WDFW), it started in 1917 and didn't cost them anything, deer numbers are decimated, predator numbers are up, we have been eyewitnesses of it.

[Skyvalhunter]

I was over there this weekend. All you have to do is drive from Pateros up to Twisp and look at the side hills. There has been plenty of snow over there to push the deer down lower. Problem is there is very few deer. Thus you see very few deer trails in the snow. It doesn't take a special study of the migration routes to see where the deer travel in as much snow is there is now. The deer I seen were in peoples yards and close to the town of Twisp. This year there is no helicopter survey so they have the Bio's driving around counting deer. Am I missing something? 

[Rainier10]

Sounds like they wrapped up netting deer for the year. 22 more collars, purple ear tags, last year was white.  Hoping by late spring they have all moved on and just the local deer are hanging out here.

They either finished or are waiting for another chopper after crashing
 the one in Winthrop

The first time they asked if they could have access to my property my buddy said I should have said yes if they would let me shoot the net gun.  When I mentioned it I was told the choppers and net gun work are hired out and no WDFW are in the choppers because of the crash rate and losing WDFW officers or bio's was just not worth the risk.

This year I just gave them access again and didn't pursue being in the helicopter, not a risk I am willing to take.

[Rainier10]

I was over there this weekend. All you have to do is drive from Pateros up to Twisp and look at the side hills. There has been plenty of snow over there to push the deer down lower. Problem is there is very few deer. Thus you see very few deer trails in the snow. It doesn't take a special study of the migration routes to see where the deer travel in as much snow is there is now. The deer I seen were in peoples yards and close to the town of Twisp. This year there is no helicopter survey so they have the Bio's driving around counting deer. Am I missing something?

I am only familiar with the study in the ellensburg area, GMU 328.  The article mentions other areas but I am not familiar with those or if they even happened.

[bigmacc]

I was over there this weekend. All you have to do is drive from Pateros up to Twisp and look at the side hills. There has been plenty of snow over there to push the deer down lower. Problem is there is very few deer. Thus you see very few deer trails in the snow. It doesn't take a special study of the migration routes to see where the deer travel in as much snow is there is now. The deer I seen were in peoples yards and close to the town of Twisp. This year there is no helicopter survey so they have the Bio's driving around counting deer. Am I missing something?

I don't think your missing anything, the Methow herd is just not the priority it once was. Like I have said many times, not just on here but to anyone that will listen including WDFW folks, this herd has slipped down many rungs of the ladder. The population of the valley is changing, the old guard of ranchers, cowboys, orchard owners etc. are being replaced by transplants from Seattle, California and other locals and they are bringing their politics, they frown on hunting and love their predators, "because nature should balance populations, not hunters"(that was told to me by one of the "skinny skiers" as Jingles calls em when I was doing some scouting a couple years ago). Hell, Don is selling the Chewuch River Ranch and getting out of Dodge, like him or not, his family are some of the old guard that are leaving. I have talked with other locals I know who in a nutshell have said, I quote, "the valley is turning into a real s@#t show". I remember as a boy watching some of the "deer roundups", my grandparents new some Game Dept. folks who would let grandpa know when they would be doing them up by Sullivans Pond (some of the old net posts are still there), they would run deer into corals made of net and trap them then tranquilize and tag them, we would watch from a hill with binoculars. This was back in the late 50,s, early 60,s when they were really studying the migration routes in the valley, my dad remembers he, grandma and grandpa having many conversations with Game folks. Back then the Methow herd was on a pedestal, it was the pride and joy of the dept, like I've said before it was at one time the largest migrating herd in the country, estimated numbering between 35-40,000 head at its peak. I have ran into many, many different study groups in the valley over the last decade or so and the majority have been studying "other creatures" rather than deer, not saying thats bad because they need to know the impact  those "other creatures" are having, but on the other hand this isn't rocket science, this particular herd has been decimated over the last 25 or so years, deer numbers have plummeted, predator numbers have boomed, not that complicated.....HMMM?......

[wolfbait]

 

The rest of WA will eventually look just like the Methow, in the 2010-2011 the UW and WDFW were doing a deer study on the Golden Doe, they were walking though fresh wolf kills to get to the deer nets. Their study was to find out the impact wolves were having on the deer. What a joke.
By the way that was the same year they claimed the Lookout pack was down to just a few wolves, friend and I showed them pictures of several wolves we got on camera in just a few weeks, they stuck to their same BS story.

This is just another bogus study, pretending they give a damn about the ungulates as they protect predators above all else

[Ironhead]

I was over there this weekend. All you have to do is drive from Pateros up to Twisp and look at the side hills. There has been plenty of snow over there to push the deer down lower. Problem is there is very few deer. Thus you see very few deer trails in the snow. It doesn't take a special study of the migration routes to see where the deer travel in as much snow is there is now. The deer I seen were in peoples yards and close to the town of Twisp. This year there is no helicopter survey so they have the Bio's driving around counting deer. Am I missing something? 

What they are really doing is checking how much the Wolves have affected the migration Patterns of old compared to what we have today. They have known the Migration trails and patterns for decades.

[bigmacc]

True, they have known the migration trails for decades, problem is there are very few deer using those trails, not nessasarily because they have changed routes (tho some have changed) but because there are drastically reduced numbers of deer period, at least as far as the Methow goes. We know of a couple routes that about 11-12 years ago moved one drainage over basically(approx. 6 or so miles), we had been finding lots of cougar kills for about 4-5 years straight in the old route when we were doing our post season November scouting. We found dozens of cat kills one year, couldn't find the cat but the area was obviously his "open buffet". The deer adapted, the deer switched turf to make it to their winter range, we have scouted that "new" route during post season for the last few years, just not many deer period. My great grandparents discovered a staging area back in the 1920,s, my dad and I seen over a thousand deer gather over a 4-5 day period in this particular area many, many times in November, they would hold up for days with more and more deer trickling in each day, deer would come in from 3 or 4 small routes and "hang around" then move out, wed go in there one day and they would all be gone. My dad said that area had been like that since he could remember when grandma would take him in there as a boy back in the 30,s. Have not seen any signs of wolves in there, no sign of cats in this particular area but over the last 25 years the numbers have declined steadily, now you can't even tell it was once a historic staging area for a historic herd, I haven't seen more than 20-30 deer in there at one time, during "prime time" for over 15 years, hell theres a a lot of years lately that I haven't seen a deer in there, over 3 or 4 days. Im not anti study, I'm pro common sense, at least for the Methow its simple, like I said, not rocket science. Yes, migrations routes have been tweaked because pf heavy predation, at least whats left of a "migration" in the Methow, yes predator numbers have boomed over the last 25 years, yes those growing numbers of predators eat deer and eat more deer every year, yes, deer numbers are less than half of their historic numbers and continue to drop, it doesn't take study after study after study to verify this, more AND growing numbers of predators equals less number of prey animals, common sense, more predators eat more deer. There are no elk in the Methow anymore(there were some at one time), there are no caribou, a small number of moose so deer are the main target of predators in this particular valley, bear numbers have exploded, cougar numbers have exploded, coyotes are everywhere and wolves have taken hold, once again, not anti study, just pro common sense, save some "study money", at least in the Methow. Predators are AND have hammered this herd, plain and simple. Common sense- aggressively getting predator numbers in check=growing the herd numbers, that is, if thats a goal, like I said the Methow valley is changing politically, soon hunters will be frowned on over here.

I know I ramble about the Methow, its what I know, my family has history there and so do I. I know other study areas in other parts of the state have different issues, but one thing is common, the more "other things" that are killing our deer and elk, the less that there will be for hunters and future hunters, whether it be over harvesting by the tribes, or growing predator numbers that have exploded since the gloves were put on over how we hunt them to name a few. IMHO predators are the number one issue concerning our big game herds, sure there are others but predators are number one by a long shot, bears hammer fawn and calf crops as well as coyotes also, cats kill a deer per week on average(how many cats do they claim, its well underestimated by many), and now wolves are growing and spreading, once again, Im not anti study, im pro common sense. Save some of those millions spent on study after study and put them into predator management and bettering our big game herds, a blind man can see (without studies costing millions over the years) that there are much more predators on the landscape and all seem to be growing in numbers, if you've spent decades out there especially, you have seen it year after year. Its hard to tell what the "big picture" is concerning our herds, it used to be to take care of the herds and bring in more money from tag and license sales, now I think we as hunters in this state have been surpassed by other money, they still get our money because there are still some game animals out there, they don't want to just discard us, at least not yet.....