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Author Topic: Fish Trap on cedar Creek  (Read 5149 times)

Offline buckcanyonlodge

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Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« on: October 13, 2023, 02:12:01 PM »
Trying to post an article from FB about the fish trap on Cedar creek. Sickening... If you have a way to copy and put it on here people need to know what is going on with our salmon at the hands of NOAA. Long report from a guy that videoed and talked with the WDFW guys that were bashing the salmon and then slashing them into a pile on the ground. CHECK IT OUT. Apparently FB won't let anyone copy/paste.....    Found a Way...Look below at next post.....
« Last Edit: October 13, 2023, 02:17:24 PM by buckcanyonlodge »
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Offline buckcanyonlodge

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2023, 02:19:27 PM »
Here is the guys post and more pics....
There is a fish trap on Cedar Creek near the mouth. I was there yesterday and observed hundreds of dead unspawned fish that were left to rot on the bank.
I went back to the trap today and spoke with the WDFW employees who were hacking apart the fish. They were nice and willing to talk but one very apparent thing is the older (I’m assuming more experienced ones) recognized the stupidity of what they were doing. They explained the reasons why which are not there fault although I do not think that excuses them completely. If you are being paid with public tax dollars to do something that obviously is a waste of a public resource or that lacks any common sense basis and you are not blowing the whistle then shame on you for collecting a pay check. That being said feel free to continue reading to learn more about what they told me. I’m going to call these employees biologists since they work for that part of WDFW, that being said I do not know their actual titles.
I asked the biologists why they were killing all of the hatchery fish and they essentially explained that regulators at NOAA believe hatchery fish are inferior to Wild Fish so they do not want the Hatchery Fish to breed with the wild fish. They said if they do not keep the hatchery fish off of the spawning grounds then the regulators at NOAA will not let them produce as many hatchery fish the next year.
I asked them how long they had been trapping the hatchery fish on Cedar creek and they advised it had been occurring for the past 3 years. They admitted that before that time, Hatchery fish and wild fish had been coexisting and breeding on cedar creek. In other words, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A WILD FISH. They also admitted the original hatchery stocks came from wild fish straight out of the local river system.
While I was there, they were taking DNA samples from fish. I asked them if they were given two pieces of fish DNA (one wild and one not wild) if they could tell the difference and they admitted they could not. They stated the closest they have been able to get so far is that they can generally identify which river system the fish is a part of. In other words, THEY ARE THE SAME FISH. If the concern is genetic diversity then why don’t we let the Hatcheries use some wild fish each year to mix in knew genes.
I asked them why WDFW implements limits on Hatchery fish when the biologists are just going to kill them all anyways and they said THEY ASK THEMSELVES THE SAME QUESTION. One of them stated that in his own opinion it would hurt very little to nothing to allow people to catch and retain as many hatchery fish as they wanted to on cedar creek. The further explained, that regulators worry wild fish may be harmed inadvertently while harvesting hatchery fish.
I then asked them if Hatchery fish were used to plant the creeks and rivers above Swift Reservoir to created the new “wild runs” above the damns and they admitted they were. In other words, THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME FISH. WILD FISH AND HATCHERY FISH ARE THE SAME.
I asked them where the surplus fish that are killed at the hatchery typically go. They advised a company call “AMCAN” buys the fish. I tried to find information about the company however I was unable to locate anything. They said it was there understanding a certain percentage of the fish had to be processed for the food bank and prison system and then the company was allowed to do whatever they wanted with the rest. WDFW has posted almost zero public information about this agreement that I can located so I will have to fill out a public disclosure request to actually get more information about the arrangement. You would think the sale of a publicly owned resource would be much more public.
Their excuse for hacking and leaving the fish on Cedar creek instead of selling them to the same company is there was no good access to load the fish.
All that being said, the biologist seemed to give the impression that they recognize that the NOAA regulators are morons, there is no need for the traps in the creeks and rivers. On top of that there is no difference between hatchery fish and wild fish which came from wild fish originally and have been cross breeding with wild fish since the existence of the hatchery programs.
No I am not a biologist but it’ doesn’t take a college degree to have common sense and to recognize that the only difference between “Hatchery fish” and “Wild Fish” is a fin clip when an entire upper river system was stalked with Hatchery fish and they now call them wild.
Thanks for all for your past support...We officially pulled the plug and have retired from the Biz. Still dabble a little in real estate.
Call Westergard Real Estate  for your REAL ESTATE needs in the Tri-County area. Hunting/Recreational or retirement properties. Tri County Area 509-722-3949

Offline buckcanyonlodge

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2023, 02:21:37 PM »
Cedar creek pics...
Thanks for all for your past support...We officially pulled the plug and have retired from the Biz. Still dabble a little in real estate.
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Offline buckcanyonlodge

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2023, 02:28:37 PM »
How many of our creeks and rivers have traps on them?? How can we get the traps removed?? Seems like they are trying to destroy another food source. Where do we draw they line and say NO MORE and remove the traps ourselves. At least let them spawn naturally.So many questions about how in the he11 did this get approved and by WHO??
Thanks for all for your past support...We officially pulled the plug and have retired from the Biz. Still dabble a little in real estate.
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Offline metlhead

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2023, 02:39:37 PM »
Only a zillion Cedar creeks. Where are we talking? I'm sure somebody will make it disappear. If you can burn a city and be applauded, a fish coffer should be cake.

Offline 7mmfan

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2023, 02:50:47 PM »
This has been going on for years. You can blame NOAA and WDFW, but the real cause of the issue is the anti-hatchery, wild fish only groups that sue the state every time they release hatchery fish. There is tons of evidence showing that brood stock programs are highly effective at restoring and bolstering wild fish populations, but the wild fish groups will sue the pants off the state if they try to initiate these kinds of programs. The state won't fight them on it. Oddly, Oregon and Idaho don't seem to have any issues with brood stock programs, just our state.
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Offline HntnFsh

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2023, 09:14:21 AM »
Very true 7mmfan.
This going on, on multiple river systems.
Another question would be, why aren't the carcasses being distributed through that system to provide essential nutrients for all of the habitat?

And yes, the wild fish groups have sued these fish almost to extinction.




Offline jackelope

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2023, 12:12:06 PM »
This has been going on for years. You can blame NOAA and WDFW, but the real cause of the issue is the anti-hatchery, wild fish only groups that sue the state every time they release hatchery fish. There is tons of evidence showing that brood stock programs are highly effective at restoring and bolstering wild fish populations, but the wild fish groups will sue the pants off the state if they try to initiate these kinds of programs. The state won't fight them on it. Oddly, Oregon and Idaho don't seem to have any issues with brood stock programs, just our state.

Nailed it.
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Offline IRONMIKE88

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2024, 09:17:07 AM »
Do you know which Cedar Creek this is in Washington?

Offline LDennis24

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2024, 10:18:02 AM »
Can you PM me the guys Facebook link if you  don't want to post it on here

Offline chukardogs

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2024, 05:55:34 PM »
This is an argument that has been clearly and thoroughly answered over time. Pretty much all of the evidence says the hatchery system failed and failed miserably. Don't get me wrong, there have been many culprits, fish farms that pollute and load our waters with disease, dams that block a fishes passage to his or her spawning beds, net's running from one side of a river to the other, logging operations causing erosion, oil and salt residue from our road ways, walls of tires used to support river banks, poorly thought out culverts, (boy this is fun) farming chemicals being indiscriminately used that would then flow into our tributaries and rivers that then flow to the ocean where the salmon are just trying to make a friggin living. The multi-pronged decimation of our salmon runs is and has been a manmade debacle with in your face warnings, all along the way. I mean, man couldn't have asked for clearer and more obvious clues. The simple fact is, man doesn't have the ability to change until we as a collective, are forced to. I'm sure the positive types will chime in with, what about this and what about that but the bottom line is, we've sat back and watched as salmon runs have been literally destroyed. I grew up on the banks of the Wenatchee and the Chiwawa river where we watched the runs diminish throughout the 60s and 70s until they were all but gone. Someone said, ooh', I got an idea, let's put a hatchery on the Chiwawa to protect the last remaining King Salmon. "Hello," anyone been fishing for salmon on the Chiwawa lately? I am so tired of people thinking or not, that salmon actually have a chance to make a comeback. The runs that are gone, are gone. The path between where we're at and where we need to be for the salmon runs to rebuild is littered with road blocks and potholes that can't be filled or moved in time to save even the strongest amongst them. When the hatchery system was envisioned, it was going to be the savior to our salmon runs. Not! The hatcheries were always intended to be a gap filler so the state wouldn't lose any money in license sales. The old put n take mindset. Can't pay for the hatcheries n such without selling licenses, right?
 The belief within the fisheries department (scientific community) is that the fish born within the hatchery system were or are inferior to the native fish in their ability to fight off disease. Some would argue that the fact that the average hatchery fish were puny in comparison to the the wild fish, is evidence of this. For the same reason, cattlemen, slaughter houses, pig and poultry producers have to maintain strict inoculation programs to protect against certain diseases, the hatchery system is forced to have the same type of approach. If you look at the beef, pork and poultry producers and their constant issues with certain diseases, they're in a constant fight with how to keep ahead of the specific diseases abilities to mutate and thus stay ahead of the different drugs that have been developed to fight said diseases. There's a reason we have recalls in our meat supply system on a regular basis. The hatcheries have an aspect they're dealing with that the cattle, pork and poultry industry don't have to deal with, a wild stock that is living amongst and breeding with the hatchery stock. Throw in the fact that, in the early days of hatcheries, the fish were being bred, hatchery to wild, wild to hatchery, hatchery to, you get the point. It didn't take very long till all of the stock were infected with anything and everything, wherever it came from.
 There's no point in worrying about a few hatchery fish being culled from a failing system. Most if not all of the scientific community already know we're way over the hump and the idea that the salmon are going to to swim back up and get to a point where the wild stock will be at a level, quantity wise, that they'll be able to sustain their numbers on their own, is a fairy tale. Simple math and just basic reality based assumptions don't support it.
 At this point, we're down to petty turf wars, finger pointing and worrying about who's gonna keep their jobs within the fish and wildlife departments and the fishing industry.   
 I'm sorry, this a subject that I've watched through my life and it makes my blood boil. It's a damn shame and if salmon had any legal representation, criminal in a lot of ways.
 I'll move on, Perch are delicious, try frying them up in a nice beer batter.

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2024, 07:06:00 PM »
This is an argument that has been clearly and thoroughly answered over time. Pretty much all of the evidence says the hatchery system failed and failed miserably. Don't get me wrong, there have been many culprits, fish farms that pollute and load our waters with disease, dams that block a fishes passage to his or her spawning beds, net's running from one side of a river to the other, logging operations causing erosion, oil and salt residue from our road ways, walls of tires used to support river banks, poorly thought out culverts, (boy this is fun) farming chemicals being indiscriminately used that would then flow into our tributaries and rivers that then flow to the ocean where the salmon are just trying to make a friggin living. The multi-pronged decimation of our salmon runs is and has been a manmade debacle with in your face warnings, all along the way. I mean, man couldn't have asked for clearer and more obvious clues. The simple fact is, man doesn't have the ability to change until we as a collective, are forced to. I'm sure the positive types will chime in with, what about this and what about that but the bottom line is, we've sat back and watched as salmon runs have been literally destroyed. I grew up on the banks of the Wenatchee and the Chiwawa river where we watched the runs diminish throughout the 60s and 70s until they were all but gone. Someone said, ooh', I got an idea, let's put a hatchery on the Chiwawa to protect the last remaining King Salmon. "Hello," anyone been fishing for salmon on the Chiwawa lately? I am so tired of people thinking or not, that salmon actually have a chance to make a comeback. The runs that are gone, are gone. The path between where we're at and where we need to be for the salmon runs to rebuild is littered with road blocks and potholes that can't be filled or moved in time to save even the strongest amongst them. When the hatchery system was envisioned, it was going to be the savior to our salmon runs. Not! The hatcheries were always intended to be a gap filler so the state wouldn't lose any money in license sales. The old put n take mindset. Can't pay for the hatcheries n such without selling licenses, right?
 The belief within the fisheries department (scientific community) is that the fish born within the hatchery system were or are inferior to the native fish in their ability to fight off disease. Some would argue that the fact that the average hatchery fish were puny in comparison to the the wild fish, is evidence of this. For the same reason, cattlemen, slaughter houses, pig and poultry producers have to maintain strict inoculation programs to protect against certain diseases, the hatchery system is forced to have the same type of approach. If you look at the beef, pork and poultry producers and their constant issues with certain diseases, they're in a constant fight with how to keep ahead of the specific diseases abilities to mutate and thus stay ahead of the different drugs that have been developed to fight said diseases. There's a reason we have recalls in our meat supply system on a regular basis. The hatcheries have an aspect they're dealing with that the cattle, pork and poultry industry don't have to deal with, a wild stock that is living amongst and breeding with the hatchery stock. Throw in the fact that, in the early days of hatcheries, the fish were being bred, hatchery to wild, wild to hatchery, hatchery to, you get the point. It didn't take very long till all of the stock were infected with anything and everything, wherever it came from.
 There's no point in worrying about a few hatchery fish being culled from a failing system. Most if not all of the scientific community already know we're way over the hump and the idea that the salmon are going to to swim back up and get to a point where the wild stock will be at a level, quantity wise, that they'll be able to sustain their numbers on their own, is a fairy tale. Simple math and just basic reality based assumptions don't support it.
 At this point, we're down to petty turf wars, finger pointing and worrying about who's gonna keep their jobs within the fish and wildlife departments and the fishing industry.   
 I'm sorry, this a subject that I've watched through my life and it makes my blood boil. It's a damn shame and if salmon had any legal representation, criminal in a lot of ways.
 I'll move on, Perch are delicious, try frying them up in a nice beer batter.
You forgot intercept fisheries,  including the trawl fleet.

Offline ASHQUACK

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2024, 07:55:03 PM »
While I agree with much of what chuckardog posted. I'd argue with a few things. I've volunteered at hatcheries since I was in high-school. I watched the guys bonk every oversized fish while picking a 5 or 6 pounder to breed with a 5 or 6 pounder. Small fish bred to small fish make small fish, genetically speaking. Ever wonder why the Quinault fish hatchery pumps out fish regularly over 20 pounds?
But I digress, we are doomed. With the anti-hatchery folks, tribal fisheries, trawl fisheries, intercept fisheries, cormorants and of course seals, sea lions and WDFW continuously forcing all sports anglers into one stream or another until that streams run collapses we are all but done. I don't know what the fix is. I wish someone has/had a magic bullet.

Offline chukardogs

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2024, 07:56:47 PM »
Okay, really? I had to leave a few for y'all. I can't think of em all. Honestly, pretty sure that is one I never would have figured into the dynamic. The fishing industry's impact or how they would have been impacted because a fish caught in a net, isn't a real fish is it?

Offline chukardogs

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2024, 08:07:14 PM »
Seals, damn! How did I forget the wolf of the waterways?

Offline O. Nerka

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2024, 08:14:40 PM »


While I agree with much of what chuckardog posted. I'd argue with a few things. I've volunteered at hatcheries since I was in high-school. I watched the guys bonk every oversized fish while picking a 5 or 6 pounder to breed with a 5 or 6 pounder. Small fish bred to small fish make small fish, genetically speaking. Ever wonder why the Quinault fish hatchery pumps out fish regularly over 20 pounds?
But I digress, we are doomed. With the anti-hatchery folks, tribal fisheries, trawl fisheries, intercept fisheries, cormorants and of course seals, sea lions and WDFW continuously forcing all sports anglers into one stream or another until that streams run collapses we are all but done. I don't know what the fix is. I wish someone has/had a magic bullet.

Man, I've spent 8 years working in hatcheries and I never once saw the attitude of picking the small fish for broodstock. Much more typically it was something along the lines of " look at the size of that guy we can use him 3 or 4 times!!"

Offline ASHQUACK

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2024, 04:56:37 AM »


While I agree with much of what chuckardog posted. I'd argue with a few things. I've volunteered at hatcheries since I was in high-school. I watched the guys bonk every oversized fish while picking a 5 or 6 pounder to breed with a 5 or 6 pounder. Small fish bred to small fish make small fish, genetically speaking. Ever wonder why the Quinault fish hatchery pumps out fish regularly over 20 pounds?
But I digress, we are doomed. With the anti-hatchery folks, tribal fisheries, trawl fisheries, intercept fisheries, cormorants and of course seals, sea lions and WDFW continuously forcing all sports anglers into one stream or another until that streams run collapses we are all but done. I don't know what the fix is. I wish someone has/had a magic bullet.

Man, I've spent 8 years working in hatcheries and I never once saw the attitude of picking the small fish for broodstock. Much more typically it was something along the lines of " look at the size of that guy we can use him 3 or 4 times!!"
I don't know, just the two hatcheries I helped at. I asked one of the guys specifically why they were just bonking and tossing the big chinooks into a fish bin. The answer I got was that big fish were more prone to having genetic defects and diseases. I also truly believe that net mesh sizes have a very negative effect on returning fish sizes. Bigger mesh only catches and kills bigger fish. Any way we look at it dead fish don't spawn. Whether they are killed in the hatchery, nets or a wood shampoo on a sporty boat or river bank. Dead is dead and not reproducing.

Offline chukardogs

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Re: Fish Trap on cedar Creek
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2024, 08:26:55 AM »
I found a very good article from 1991 debating the hatcheries vs wild fish. It's interesting to read 30 odd years later and think about the things they (the scientist) believed back then that came to fruition and the things that didn't.

  UW experts debate what’s best for fish: wild runs or hatcheries
BY SANDRA HINES | PHOTOS BY GREGORY T. RUGGERONE | DEC. 1991 ISSUE

In the article, Donaldson indicates that to supply the number of fish that the world needs, (yes, it ain't all about us here in the northwest) hatcheries are it! There's no going backwards and it would be nice if certain individuals with dreams of rivers full of wild fish and a landscape covered with wild animals like deer, elk, moose, Wolves, Cougars, Black Bears, Grizzly Bears, Wolverines....etc. understood this. The idea that man can back up time without removing a large plethera of humans at the same time is absurd. Man is here, deal with it!
 Instead of trying to figure out ways to move backwards, how about ya dreamers figure out how man is going to thrive through the next millennium.

 


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