Elk will be gone in Idaho by 2012

[idahohuntr]

Elk hunting in Idaho is still good 

That is my biggest point in all of these threads. 

[Bob33]

F&G considering these changes; rules will be set in March.

ROGER PHILLIPS, BOISE - THE IDAHO STATESMAN
February 3, 2015

ROGER PHILLIPS — Idaho Statesman

Idaho Fish and Game is proposing changes for the 2015 deer and elk hunts and here's a look at what's being considered. Fish and Game will seek public comment in mid February on these proposals through its website and also at regional meetings around the state.

F&G commissioners will set seasons and rules in March.

Here's a look at what's in store:

Statewide

* Consider setting big game seasons and rules for a two-year cycle.

* Standardize general deer season by closing date in Southern Idaho to Oct. 31.

Southwest Region

* Consider new extra anterless hunt in Unit 32 to address depredation issues.

* Consider increase in deer controlled hunts for bucks in Unit 22.

* Address depredation concerns with elk throughout the region.

* Increase controlled hunt bull elk opportunity in the McCall Zone.

* Consider converting Unit 39 antlerless controlled hunts to either sex.

* Consider proposal for September controlled archery deer hunt in Unit 39.

* Offer more bull elk controlled hunt opportunities in the Owyhee Zone.

Magic Valley

* Reduce late November antlerless deer tags in Unit 45.

* Rotate muzzleloader deer hunt from Units 55, 56, and 57 to Unit 45.

* Add early archery deer hunt in Unit 44.

* Adjust landowner permission controlled elk hunts to address depredation.

* Increase elk opportunity in region in response to population growth and increased depredations.

Clearwater Region

* Increase extra antlerless tags in existing hunts.

* Increase length of antlerless whitetail seasons in Units 13, 14 and 18.

* Evaluate proposal to implement trophy buck management in Palouse area.

* Expand late quality/high quality mule deer hunting in Lower Salmon units.

* Consider adding controlled hunts, possibly for youth, for mule deer.

* Review elk season structure in Hells Canyon relative to hunter crowding complaints.

* Evaluate elk hunting seasons in the Palouse area to address depredation problems.

Panhandle

* Increase whitetail deer harvest opportunities in Units 1 and 3.

* Increase elk opportunity with B-tag muzzleloader hunt, youth controlled hunts and increased controlled hunts.

Southeast Region

* Consider 10 controlled hunts tags for antlered deer in November in Units 66A, 70 and 73.

* Convert Unit 73 unlimited deer controlled hunt with "first choice only."

* Add either sex controlled deer hunts in Units 75 and 76.

* Add antlerless deer controlled hunt in Unit 77.

* Add muzzleloader deer controlled hunt in Unit 68.

Upper Snake

* Consider reducing harvest in Unit 63A archery deer hunt.

* Consider addition of greenfield hunt in Unit 50 to address depredation.

Salmon Region

* Consider region-wide extra antlerless elk landowner permission hunts with 300 tags to address depredation.

* Adjust elk tags in Units 30 and 30A.

* Consider additional antlerless elk tags in Unit 36A.

 www.idahostatesman.com/2015/02/03/3625862/heres-a-sneak-peak-at-2015-deer.html

[jasnt]

Elk hunting in Idaho is still good 

That is my biggest point in all of these threads. 

the problem is some areas are bad that used to be good. Some of the good areas used to be great!  My biggest point in all these threads is to point out the truth,  the BS, and inform the ill-formed.  I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that wolves have not negatively affected elk, moose, and deer in Idaho or any other state for that matter. 

[idahohuntr]

Elk hunting in Idaho is still good 

That is my biggest point in all of these threads. 

the problem is some areas are bad that used to be good. Some of the good areas used to be great!  My biggest point in all these threads is to point out the truth,  the BS, and inform the ill-formed.  I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that wolves have not negatively affected elk, moose, and deer in Idaho or any other state for that matter.

I am unaware of anyone ever suggesting wolves don't eat elk or that wolves have no impact on ungulate populations.  Who has ever suggested such an absurd thing?  Are you referring to some fringe folks from DoW or something? 

[jasnt]

Elk hunting in Idaho is still good 

That is my biggest point in all of these threads. 

the problem is some areas are bad that used to be good. Some of the good areas used to be great!  My biggest point in all these threads is to point out the truth,  the BS, and inform the ill-formed.  I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that wolves have not negatively affected elk, moose, and deer in Idaho or any other state for that matter.

I am unaware of anyone ever suggesting wolves don't eat elk or that wolves have no impact on ungulate populations.  Who has ever suggested such an absurd thing?  Are you referring to some fringe folks from DoW or something? 

no I'm referring to those that claim habitat or weather is the reason for declines.  I don't need to mention names. Most of us know who I'm talking about. 

[bearpaw]

Elk hunting in Idaho is still good 

That is my biggest point in all of these threads. 

the problem is some areas are bad that used to be good. Some of the good areas used to be great!  My biggest point in all these threads is to point out the truth,  the BS, and inform the ill-formed.  I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that wolves have not negatively affected elk, moose, and deer in Idaho or any other state for that matter. 

  That is exactly right and the most frustrating thing is to see some people try to claim wolves had little or no impact when agencies have been admitting and documenting wolf impacts.

Anyone who knows the seasons Idaho historically had knows that even if all the season additions are approved that are proposed, seasons still will not be as generous as hunting opportunities used to be in Idaho before wolves. There are many units, some of the previous best elk hunting areas that all cow elk hunting had to be taken away to save herds. Most of that cow elk hunting is still not being proposed because those herds are still depressed or just beginning to recover.

Thankfully Idaho implemented intense agressive predator management and some of those depressed herds are starting to come back.

[idahohuntr]

Elk hunting in Idaho is still good 

That is my biggest point in all of these threads. 

the problem is some areas are bad that used to be good. Some of the good areas used to be great!  My biggest point in all these threads is to point out the truth,  the BS, and inform the ill-formed.  I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that wolves have not negatively affected elk, moose, and deer in Idaho or any other state for that matter. 

  That is exactly right and the most frustrating thing is to see some people try to claim wolves had little or no impact when agencies have been admitting and documenting wolf impacts.

On the flip side there are an awful lot of folks that substantially exaggerate the impacts of wolves.  Such as those who predicted elk would be extinct in Idaho in 2012 I mean how can people be so ignorant?  Its kind of like saying habitat and weather don't affect ungulate populations...you really have to wonder if those kind of people have ever actually hunted or whether they just type about hunting on the internet. 

[bearpaw]

Elk hunting in Idaho is still good 

That is my biggest point in all of these threads. 

the problem is some areas are bad that used to be good. Some of the good areas used to be great!  My biggest point in all these threads is to point out the truth,  the BS, and inform the ill-formed.  I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that wolves have not negatively affected elk, moose, and deer in Idaho or any other state for that matter. 

  That is exactly right and the most frustrating thing is to see some people try to claim wolves had little or no impact when agencies have been admitting and documenting wolf impacts.

On the flip side there are an awful lot of folks that substantially exaggerate the impacts of wolves.  Such as those who predicted elk would be extinct in Idaho in 2012 I mean how can people be so ignorant?  Its kind of like saying habitat and weather don't affect ungulate populations...you really have to wonder if those kind of people have ever actually hunted or whether they just type about hunting on the internet. 

Obviously it seems the laws of nature would cause the wolves to starve or eat each other before they found and killed the last elk. I'm not sure if he actually believed that or was just throwing out an off the cuff statement. Hard to say! I do know he didn't last long on this forum and I am aware of frictions which occurred between various Idaho sports groups.

[jasnt]

Elk hunting in Idaho is still good 

That is my biggest point in all of these threads. 

the problem is some areas are bad that used to be good. Some of the good areas used to be great!  My biggest point in all these threads is to point out the truth,  the BS, and inform the ill-formed.  I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that wolves have not negatively affected elk, moose, and deer in Idaho or any other state for that matter. 

  That is exactly right and the most frustrating thing is to see some people try to claim wolves had little or no impact when agencies have been admitting and documenting wolf impacts.

On the flip side there are an awful lot of folks that substantially exaggerate the impacts of wolves.  Such as those who predicted elk would be extinct in Idaho in 2012 I mean how can people be so ignorant?  Its kind of like saying habitat and weather don't affect ungulate populations...you really have to wonder if those kind of people have ever actually hunted or whether they just type about hunting on the internet. 

and with out aggressive management Idaho would be suffering, much like yellow stone now 1/6th it's pre-wolf elk numbers. I realize what you are saying about them going. Extinct. No they did not go extinct but if Idaho had not managed wolves aggressively in some areas they may have been close.  I'd say if Idaho had lost over 80% of its pre-wolf population like Yellowstone has in would say that's endangered.

[jasnt]

Here is some conservative numbers for you to try to wrap your mind around...

Keep in mind that a healthy elk population grows by 10% on an average year when under stress from wolves or other large scale pressures....

Wolve numbers on the other hand have proven to grow by 25% annually despite efforts to control their population.

That said-- In 2008 Idaho's elk population was estimated at around 110,000. While the wolf population was approaching 1000-- a very conservative number.

SO: 110,000 x 10% growth gives us 121,000 elk... and 1000 wolves x 25% growth=1250 wolves

However each wolf eats 2 elk per month so thats 24 elk per year per wolf.
So 24 elk x 1250 wolves= 30,000 elk killed that year by wolves alone.
so 121,000 elk - 30,000 killed by wolves leaves 91,000 elk in 2009

that year the elk again grow by 10% and the wolves by 25% = 100,000 elk & 1563 wolves
but those wolves also eat 2 elk per month only leaving 62,112 elk in 2010

repeat those numbers and the wolves grow to 1953 in 2011 eating 46,872 elk that year leaving total of 15,240 elk after the elks 10% growth...

so then in 2012 the wolves grow to 2441 and need to eat 58,584 elk to survive.... but there are only 15,240 elk left to eat.... so then what happens???

Disease? Starvation? unpredictable behaviors-- like the poor teacher that was just hunted down and killed by wolves up north??

YOU DO THE MATH!!!!

The reason this happened, was because of the wolf cult, and environmental organizations using false science.

Why do you love wolves

  idahoforwildlife.com quote

"When Idaho For Wildlife was first organized, we created a very powerful mission statement relating to fighting against anti-hunting groups and holding state and Federal agencies accountable who have anti-hunting/radical environmental agendas which are threatening sportsmen and our 2nd amendment rights. Never in a million years did we believe we would be having to warn and protect honest sportsman from potential internet cyber thugs who were trolling the web on the prowl for $ from innocent sportsmen! We have learned that Save Western Wildlife founder and leader Scott Rockholm is someone to stay clear of! He is extremely cunning and crafty at taking advantage of the trusting qualities of most people. Mr. Rockholm uses "Cult" like leadership tactics to control his people and attract new naive cyber followers. He has become well known to bully, ridicule and attack anyone that doesn't abide by his desires and demand, (Those who have suffered his wrath know exactly what I ‘am talking about!) He uses coercion and psychological isolation tactics to keep his cyber followers in check. Once his followers submit to him they are treated well but if they get out of line they had better "Watch Out! By fabricating blatant lies about his enemies who may expose him, he insulates his followers from knowing the truth. When Rockholm first came on the scene, I watched him boldly attack and fabricate a story about a friend of mine and for a while I believed Rockholm because normal people don’t act like this. The tragedy is many good people can be deceived in the short term with his tactics."


His math equation was all screwed up any way. He stated "
Keep in mind that a healthy elk population grows by 10% on an average year when under stress from wolves or other large scale pressures"

So even with wolves it was growing by 10%. As the wolf population grew that growth rate dropped in heavy wolf areas to the point of lowering elk numbers in those areas. More wolves more elk eaten that's a no brainer. Control wolf numbers you control elk growth or decline


Like I said "truth, BS , informing the ill-informed"

[idahohuntr]

I think you could put Idaho's elk units into 3 broad categories:

1. Units where wolves simply don't occur and thus have no impacts
2. Units where wolves and other predators are putting significant pressure on existing elk populations
3. Units where wolves and other predators are present in decent numbers but their impacts vary locally and are not so profound as to cause huge depressions in elk numbers. 

My observations on the difference between category 2 and 3 has been habitat differences...I'm sure there's more complexity than that.  Because the state is large and diverse it is difficult to paint a picture of Idaho as though one single management action (or lack thereof) would individually cause something like an 80% population decline in elk imo...perhaps in large part because we have units that fit into category 1. 

With a little work and an open mind you can find good OTC elk hunting in Idaho...quite a few areas actually.  Frankly, the Lolo zone gets bashed all the time...but I would take hunting their over probably just about any OTC Wa tag and maybe 1/2 the bull and quality permit hunts in WA...if I weren't fortunate enough to hunt many states each year.  There are in fact still elk in that zone, there are very few hunters, you can kill branch bulls (or any bull for that matter!) and its beautiful country.  If I were an outfitter I would be investing in the Lolo Zone...buy low, sell high.  I think many factors are going to result in pretty decent hunting in the future in that zone...I am more optimistic than some.   

[jasnt]

I think you could put Idaho's elk units into 3 broad categories:

1. Units where wolves simply don't occur and thus have no impacts
2. Units where wolves and other predators are putting significant pressure on existing elk populations
3. Units where wolves and other predators are present in decent numbers but their impacts vary locally and are not so profound as to cause huge depressions in elk numbers. 

My observations on the difference between category 2 and 3 has been habitat differences...I'm sure there's more complexity than that.  Because the state is large and diverse it is difficult to paint a picture of Idaho as though one single management action (or lack thereof) would individually cause something like an 80% population decline in elk imo...perhaps in large part because we have units that fit into category 1. 

With a little work and an open mind you can find good OTC elk hunting in Idaho...quite a few areas actually.  Frankly, the Lolo zone gets bashed all the time...but I would take hunting their over probably just about any OTC Wa tag and maybe 1/2 the bull and quality permit hunts in WA...if I weren't fortunate enough to hunt many states each year.  There are in fact still elk in that zone, there are very few hunters, you can kill branch bulls (or any bull for that matter!) and its beautiful country.  If I were an outfitter I would be investing in the Lolo Zone...buy low, sell high.  I think many factors are going to result in pretty decent hunting in the future in that zone...I am more optimistic than some.   

every where there are elk in Idaho there are wolves so number 1 dosent really make any difference.  The 80% decline was over 20 year span without aggressive management.  If what you say about the Lolo zone being better than Washington then we already have low elk numbers that are being predated on by un-managed wolves. Sounds like we can't afford a 1% decline.

[Bean Counter]

Thankfully Idaho implemented intense agressive predator management and some of those depressed herds are starting to come back.

BP,
What is the latest as to the survey numbers? I'm curious how the hardest hit herds have dropped and recovered, by the numbers of course 

[mountainman]

Started to comeback, and recovered, are two different things..

[idahohuntr]

A wolf can occur anywhere in Idaho, no doubt.  Most units below I-84 wolves are very rare...this is southern Idaho.  This is category 1.  Yea, a wolf could move through those units, but they really aren't established there and thus have no impacts. 

My preference to hunt the Lolo over pretty much any general WA elk tag is not necessarily because the Lolo has more elk than any otc unit in Wa...that certainly is not the case.  My preference is based on a) very few hunters b) I can shoot any bull I see c) its an otc tag and d) gorgeous/remote country.