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Author Topic: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.  (Read 8153 times)

Offline jackelope

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2008, 10:20:34 PM »
first of all i will say that i do not regret shooting 2, and i don't think any less of anybody else for doing it either. there is a purist thing that says it's not proper i guess, kind of like sleucing grouse on the ground with a shotgun, or shooting waterfowl on the water, or shooting pheasants on the ground. these were the first 2 turkeys i ever killed in wa. and i was pretty stoked. now, when the opportunity comes again, i will kill 1 and not shoot again most likely...for multiple reasons.
 i also use strike indicators, or bobbers or bobbercators or whatever you want to call them when nymph-fishing on a river.  :yike:
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Offline Head-shot

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2008, 11:48:13 PM »
i also use strike indicators, or bobbers or bobbercators or whatever you want to call them when nymph-fishing on a river.  :yike:
I'm with ya Jak, I'll take every advantage I can get. I would use dynamite to fish with if it were legal... :chuckle:
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Offline wastickslinger

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2008, 01:09:02 AM »
Machias, no offense taken. I have been chasing the long beards for about 7 years in wahington. I know what you mean about the sport of calling them in. Ask my wife how much I am walking around the house with a diaphram in my mouth practicing. I love calling them in, no better rush for me. I still dont see what that has to do with shooting two at once. If i call in two long beards and the suckers heads line up and I dump them both, the boys back east would be ashamed? I saw ol Waddel do it before? Besides I still dont see why that is unithical?

I dont think many guys with two tags would say "hey dont shoot those trophy 12" longbeards that are all lined up. Better wait, shoot one now and then call the other one back in in the morning and get him then."

Again, no offense taken I just still dont see the big deal. How come back east they shoot two or three deer in a day and its not unithical like shooting two turkeys in a day. We would cringe at two deer in a day out here. I know it is because there are so many deer right? Which leads me to my point. There must be enough birds to allow us to shoot two a day?

 :dunno:

Offline Machias

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2008, 08:10:17 AM »
:)  It's not unethical at all, it's legal.  I was just saying for the old boys (of which Waddel is not) it was more about the hunt then the harvest.  I have killed probably 50+ gobblers, I remember the ones I had to work hard to get, not so much the ones who lifted off the roost and glided down into shotgun range.  Good luck this spring you guys, I hope you get some orney longbeards and seal the deal.  :):)
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Offline Wacenturion

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2008, 12:03:19 PM »
Watickslinger.....you said...

"There must be enough birds to allow us to shoot two a day?"


There may or may not be....that is the question. :dunno:  It is an ethical question as well as a harvest one.  Washington ranks right near the top of states with harvest opportunity, especially with the recent passage of additional hen harvest in the northeast last weekend in Pasco by the Commission.  I believe that will potentially allow up to five (5) birds a year if I interpret it correctly.
I for one would ask if these liberalizations of our turkey season is based on "best science", the current director's favorite term, or rather wildlife management's problem of having to deal with turkeys in general, as many didn't particularly want them to begin with.
Lets look at how things have progressed.  We won't go back all the way, but begin with......
1.One (1) tag for each subspecies...Eastern, Merriams, and Rio.......then
2.Three (3) tags....two (2) east either one of each or two of same.. Merriams or Rio, one(1) westside..eastern
3.Fall season...one(1) either sex in various units
4.Two birds same day in various areas
5.Expand fall season and potential harvest of hens

Mixed in as we progressed were free tags..... Remember the free-tags :yike:....they sure changed the image of the turkey hunting landscape.  Instead of responsible camoed guys and gals hitting the woods, the free tags brought us......"drive bys"  executed by opportunists in blue jeans and t-shirts.  It sure changed landowner attitudes when they encountered these guys.

Fall seasons...Something to think about.  Increasing the fall harvest on hen turkeys could have an impact down the road.....particularly if a good percentage of those hens are from elite category of successful nesters.  Been shown to have an impact back east years ago.  The department makes a feeble mention of the study in the Turkey Management Plan. You know there used to be fall seasons way back when...believe the first one was 1970.  Birds in Stevens had in spite of way fewer birds being release than in the 80' and 90's, did relatively well. Very little pressure as what few turkey we had then generally went to Klickitat as it got the hype.

That fall season up there ended up causing landowner hate, closing of property to hunters and loss of hen turkeys.  Seems it coincided with deer season.  Wonder how many roosting turkeys in the light of the early a.m. were used for target practice...I know some were.  Anyway couple that with a lack on new blood over 20+ years and you have isolated populations going down hill.  Genetically in trouble.  That's why Klickitat numbers declined....you can't rely on an initial release of 13-20 birds to go the distance.  These things lead to the general concensus in the late 70's and early 80's that turkeys were just not going to make it in any large numbers in Washington, outside of where there already were.

Along comes an aggressive turkey introduction program in the mid 80' and 90's :IBCOOL:, in spite of in house "turkey wars".....good guys won by the way, but it came at a price.  Washington could have had so much more...particularly in regards to the eastern subspecies.  Birds were available and basically free through agreements between agencies.  Just enough bureaucratic BS to slow things down before things changed and the agency brought the overall introduction program to a halt in 2001 or 2002.  This same BS was at the same time applied to in state trap and transfer with Rio's and Merriam's and kept birds from going to appropriate areas.....Rio's didn't fair well for whatever reason in the Yakima region so things came to a halt...gee guess no options huh?  Could it be possible that merriams might fair well with sufficient release in the Yakima region and provide additional opportunity?  They as a subspecies occur above...all the way from Stevens across the north central portion of the state and turning south into Kittitas county....as well as below...Klickitat county.  Probably bad odds huh?  Not.....the agency/regional folks don't want them there, period. :bash: 



The birds that resulted from all the introductions 10-15 years ago were not the nuisance problems as we have today...oh excuse me....they were, but a Dept. program which had 21 staff took care of them immediately when they arose.  The Dept has since essentially killed that approach as only 9 folks remain in the old program with a ton of other duties.  So....now the problem is paramount and created by these same people who really dislike these birds being here in the first place.  That's the first step....see, we told you they would be a problem.  Next step...convince everyone we have a problem and should shoot the piss out of em, and in the interim train turkey hunters to fit the good ol' Joe six-pack image.  Starting to get my drift.  >:(

Forgot to mention.....and I alluded to it above, before that program got dismantled...the ones who kept it from being a problem, in all fairness before that happened,  there were some problems.  Birds being trapped on nuisance sites in Stevens were blocked by Regional and Headquarter staff from being released in Klickitat county. 

Imagine that....why would anyone in their right mind want to take Merriam's from Stevens where a landowner wants 60-70% removed (not all as he likes em...just too many), and release them in Klickitat county, the birth place of the Washington turkey Program...i.e Merriam's, and where folks, landowners, timber owners, hunter, non-hunters are excited about getting them.  Guess they didn't fit the guidelines, habitat type, or the powers to be in the Department weren't sure they could make it.  Whatever excuse they could come up with to make a timely release impossible.  People pissed big time at the receiving end.......lousy PR all the way around. :bash:

New proposal for increase hen harvest....The Department sure picked an appropriate time to run this by the Commission.....3 days before the general spring turkey opener.  I'm sure any turkey hunter who would be interested in opposing this nonsense, probably would not even see it in the paper or have a chance to be there if he or she did......gee wonder what they might be doing instead....packing up, heading out to camp, meeting up with old friends, scouting etc.  Another sneaky move in my opinion. :bdid:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying in the short term we are going to decimate turkey populations in the NE.  I also realize fall turkey hunting is different than spring hunting, and that there are pros and cons.  I know all that.

I'm speaking in reference to an overall perception of where we are heading ethically in this state as it relates to turkey hunting.  I have not recently researched the regulations as such from most of the midwestern or eastern states, but I'll bet you when they have booms in populations that result in some nuisance problems they (their agency's) are not rushing to reduce numbers by allowing up to five birds a year, three of them beardless.  Too much money and effort went into reestablishing those birds into native ranges to do that.   

Now granted....they (Pa., Iowa, etc.) have alot more turkey hunters than we do, and could do more damage to flocks under this scenario, but we've grown also.....30,000 + tags and will continue to grow.  I guess you have to look at the options.  Personally, I think the small expenditure necessary to trap and move a suitable portions of these nuisance flocks (like the agency used to do), is far cheaper, dollar wise in the long run.  It's target specific and addresses the problem at a specific site.  Everyone is happy....landowner got help, birds got a new location...problem over.  But of course that's not going to happen.  Fall hunting increases directed at beardless birds is not going to alleviate specific problems, as folks will be hunting all over the county, and taking birds from flocks that are not a nuisance. 

So unless you can get these new tags targeted directly on nusianse sites, you really won't solve the perceived problem and the landowner is still left holding the bag.....and in doing so we run the risk of changing the image of turkeys and turkey hunters socially in the eyes of others.

Futhermore....I feel the nuisance problem is being blown out of proportion by the agency as more than it really is to serve their own purposes....not yours.  If we were to superimpose the reasoning behind the increase in beardless tags to that elk population, we would start increasing tag numbers to get rid of any problems those elk may cause.  Not going to do that as they have a perceived value.  It's worth the problem and the feeding to retain them as such.  They are elk and an important symbol of Washington.  To approach elk problems by turning the hoards loose on them changes that image...they become nuisance animals.

What I am suggesting is that by approaching turkeys the way the agency proposes it will continue to degrade their status in the long run and provide ammo for all the "Eco" types to make their case  regarding introduced species and impact future management issues regarding turkey as such.  We all have something special in this state with all three(3) subspecies and the ability to harvest them in the spring....we need to guard it and keep it close.
So to go back to your original question....I would suggest the answer is no to both...... ethically this regulation as well as others could eventually degrade the overall turkey hunter image.  The agency sells licenses and tags and in doing so they inherit the responsible for setting regulations that promotes the correct image.  As I pointed out above there are mixed feelings about turkeys, so for those in the agency who don't like em, do you think hunter image is a concern.  Just adds one more thing to the list of undesirables.    As far as population numbers are concerned it is unwarranted as it's not based on real science, but rather vodoo wishes!   :twocents:





 
 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 12:29:27 PM by Wacenturion »
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Offline ICEMAN

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2008, 08:29:47 PM »
 :o   :o   :o  Hole E Sheeeiit! You said a mouthful!

Very good write up of this situation, you obviously know the whole story on Turkey in this state. Thanks for the input.
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Offline Intruder

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2008, 09:23:56 AM »
Wacenturion & Machias have elaborated a lot on my original take on this subject.  There's a rich tradition around turkey hunting (South/Midwest) that has grown up over decades.  Compare this to Washington's rich 10 year history of viable turkey hunting(sarcasm).  Much of that tradition is based on management principals.... leveling the playing field.  Killing a turkey in and of itself is not a difficult thing to do.  Hunting & calling one to 40 yards or less is a whole other matter.  Much of what the traditions do is emphasize this by making some of the easy methods (rifles, roost shooting, Jake shooting, etc) "socially unacceptable".   It's not nearly as much an elitist type a thing as some of the flyfishing doctrines that some folks adopt.  The turkey traditions are more about manners, honoring the birds, sportsmanship, "safety", and stewardship.  Remember, there was a time when the turkey was almost wiped out and over harvest had a lot to do with it.  Much of those traditions were established and handed down as a result of that.

As far as our F/G Dept in WA:  I don't necessarily believe they really have a well thought out long term plan regarding any hunting in WA let alone turkeys.  So, I would assume they will continue to manage turkeys reactively much as they seem to do with other game.

I'm pretty much a pup compared to Machias when it comes to tagging turkeys 50+ compared to my 20 or so.  One thing that I can say however is in terms of pure satisfaction  there's no comparison "for me" to calling 1 in as opposed to killing 1 another way.  I'll never ambush (done it 3 times) another turkey as long as I live.  A buddy and I were discussing this very point while hunting yesterday.... comparing turkey hunting and sex.  Calling in a big Tom is like sleepin w/ 2 super models and killin 1 any other way is like bein 15 years old in the bathroom w/ a National Geographic.  In the end the result is similar but the level of satisfaction is quite different.  :lol4:

Offline Wacenturion

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2008, 09:34:41 AM »
Intruder.....I like your analogy...could not of said it better.  Thanks for the chuckle....now I have to clean the coffee off my laptop screen.....lol. :chuckle:
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Offline Head-shot

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2008, 07:27:31 PM »
  Calling in a big Tom is like sleepin w/ 2 super models and killin 1 any other way is like bein 15 years old in the bathroom w/ a National Geographic.  In the end the result is similar but the level of satisfaction is quite different. 


 :chuckle: :chuckle: that's funny good analogy
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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2008, 07:14:19 PM »
well i only shot one tom. he came in awsome once i got to with in 50 yard's of him. i'm happy with the one. got into bird's every day. Rick
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Offline wastickslinger

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2008, 01:13:24 PM »
So calling in 2 toms at once and dumping them both would be like sleeping with 4 supermodels then right.  ;)

Offline coastalghost

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2008, 01:36:16 PM »
Well said Intruder....in Washington Ive witnessed all of the turkey harvest issues.  Watched two guys shoot out of a car at some jakes....witnessed guys trying to shoot them out of the tops of trees like they were pidgeons....Saw a father and his boy shooting at a flock of jakes in the air. You know theyll get back to camp or home and say what a rush it was when we called em in....LOL. Watched a guy try and shoot a big tom a day before the season while I was sitting across the draw scouting....I let him have it and If I had a cell phone.....a-hole ruined the spot for a bunch of guys. When I confronted him he said that it was his dad who shot because he thought he was lost.....Gooood one! How lame is that.  When I first started turkey hunting all I watched were the shows produced in the midwest and the south of guys doing it the "right" way.  Man, I was so excited to get out there and do it...and when it finally happened ie calling in a big tom....is was such a rush and it was everything that I hoped for.  Hooked for life now.  In my mind.....save the Jakes for the kids, otherwise leave em alone, it will make the hunting soooo much better for EVERYONE. :twocents:
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Offline wastickslinger

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2008, 06:19:43 PM »
I was going to put up a great story and pictures of the two turks that MuleySniper and I worked our tails off for. But I dont think I will since we are not youth, and according to the experts on her we should not shoot jakes.  :dunno:  Oh well we cant all be professionals. Buddies and I hunt for the time in the woods and the memories shared, Not the beard on the wall to brag about every day. Besides I am runnign out of room for long beards. ;)

Offline coastalghost

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2008, 07:03:39 PM »
No expert....do what ya want...just my opinion.  Always like to see birds. 
Vegetarians?..Vegetarians are cool.  All I eat are vegetarians....except for the occasional mtn. lion steak.

Offline Intruder

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Re: Is it legal to shoot two turkey's at once.
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2008, 09:48:32 PM »
I have no issue w/ folks killin a Jakes.  I'd gladly shake his hand and pat the guy on the back for callin in a Jake and whackin it at 20 yards as opposed to seein some SOB in a car shooting a longbeard in some guy's pasture.  I can tell you for sure that 5 or 6 years ago I woulda hammered any legal bird that I called in.... Jake, mature Tom or bearded hen.  Now I choose not to.... my choice for reasons that I think are important.  Not tryin to impose that on anyone else though.  Encourage maybe, impose, NO. 

 


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