retrieve question

[Huntbear]

Couple thoughts...

Retrievers in Britain are not force fetched. That applies to the field trial type and otherwise. What's different over there?

I don't believe in the trained point concept. I have a Pointer that is nothing but a meat dog and he only loosely listens to the word whoa. But that dog will stick a point and hold it all day. Training had nothing to do with making that happen. Breeding did.

Thoughts?

I have no clue to the breeding of my GWP as he is a rescue.  I am his third and if I have my way, last owner.  That said, the dog will sit on point with a freaking sparrow, for 15 min.  I watched him one morning, he was all pointed up but with his nose stuck straight up.  I looked up, and there were 3 doves sitting on the cross arm of the power pole, and he decided they needed pointing out.    He stood there for almost 30 min. before the doves finally left.  He never moved.

So, I guess I should be thankful I have a dog that loves to point, loves to retrieve, and he loves the water too... all on a freak accident that I rescued him from being neglected from a couple in Yakima.  Now, if I could just get him to quit being so dang hard headed about minding in the house....    still he is a great pup and would not trade him for anything, even if I never get him to the point of hunting him.

[wildweeds]

There has been many a field champion that was "Trained" to point" ............... I know the guy who did it.Another trainer had an off breed mutt he "Trained" to point and has the pictures on his website.Another lady I know " Trained " her border collie to point birds.I've hunted with a jack russell terrrier that was a pointing machine on quail,he however was not trained,he just hunts with whoever shows up on his land.Bluemoon on here has posted pictures of a poodle pointing,whether he "trained" it or the dog did it naturally I have no idea. I can guarantee you this though.............. I owned(key word) a dog sired by a 7X AF AA CH that  posessed ZERO instinct to point...................... and she was "Trained" to do so................................. she came from a who's who of setter kennels.

Couple thoughts...

Retrievers in Britain are not force fetched. That applies to the field trial type and otherwise. What's different over there?

I don't believe in the trained point concept. I have a Pointer that is nothing but a meat dog and he only loosely listens to the word whoa. But that dog will stick a point and hold it all day. Training had nothing to do with making that happen. Breeding did.

Thoughts?

[jetjockey]

My point about breeding was more in reference to Pointers and Setters, and the pointing dog breeds.  Natural retrieve is the last thing some people want in Pointers and Setters, because like I said before, receiving duties fall to the dogs bred to retrieve.  And just because a dog is an AKC or AF Champion doesn't mean it's going to throw Champion pups.  I know of NFC's that were bred together that threw crap puppies.  From what I understand Johny Crocket, the last Setter to win Ames, didn't pass down his abilities to his pups either.  On the other hand, there are those dogs who were decent that throw pups who are much better than their parents.  The foundation dog for my trainers breeding program is one of those dogs. It seems that his pups throw good dogs as well, and that's one of the reason I'm breeding my dog to that line.

When speaking about different types of dogs however (pointing dogs and retrievig dogs) you absolutely want to breed for desired traits such as point, retrieve, run, nose, etc..   A pointing dog without natural point or a retriever without natural retrieve are pretty useless, even though you can achieve those through training.  But there is a big difference in teaching a dog to point or retrieve and bringing the natural point and retrieve out in a dog.  It's no different than human sports.  Kobe Bryant has a beautiful natural jump shot, but he still needed to be taught how to perfect it.  Roger Clemens had an amazing throwing motion, but he still had a pitching coach to perfect it.  Dogs are no different, and IMO with pointing dogs, if the dog has any natural retrieve in it, that retrieve can be brought out without FF.  if it doesn't, then FF is the only option.  As far as the OP is concerned, since GSP's typically have natural retrieve, I don't think the dog needs FF from what the OP has said.  He just needs to make it fun for the dog and make it a game with a reward when done correctly.   With a little work he will have a retrieving fool.  At least retrieving to the extent that most pointing breed people need. 

[Roo]

Hijacked!

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[Happy Gilmore]

Happy you missed my point,the way it is now could very well be a direct result of "Drag of the Race".How many dogs do you suppose were forced to retrieve 40 years ago. A perfect example of not needing force retrieving is the BEST RETRIEVER I've ever hunted with. JD was a big chesapeake male that had big nuts and ZERO quit,that dog never lost a bird when I hunted with him,and that was alot.We would go set up on the salt chuck on the skagit and up here in whatcom.That dog disappeard out of sight more than a few times for a wing clipped sprig,My buddy was so worried one day because the dog had been gone an hour and was trying to figure out how to tell his dad he lost the dog.The dog showed up,with the sprig,which was still alive.

My position is that I would rather buy a  pup be it pointing or retrieving from parents  instinctively strong in the perfomance areas.

Well, some here, some there. Genetics play a big role. Talking retrieve, lets talk retrievers? There is not an FC/AFC, NAFC, NFC alive who has not been force fetched. Not a single one. Out of hundreds of thousands of lab retrievers bred a year, not a single one of the finest breedings available has become an FC without being Forced. The "Natural Retriever" concept is typically argued by someone who either has never had a fully force fetched dog or, folks who will really only hunt upland with a pointing breed.

Not to say that a non-force fetched dog can't be a good retriever and hunting partner...they can. But, with a force fetch and a good trainer, almost any 18 month old retriever will out work, out handle and out hunt the most experienced and seasoned veteran hunting partner. I'd rather have a dog hitting the ground experienced with the tools the dog needs before going hunting rather than waiting for a bunch of seasons to roll by allowing the dog to get experience.

Plus, I find dog training an enjoyable way to spend time constructively with my dogs.

I caught that and the retriever reference was off base although, 40 years ago, Every retriever was forced. Brutally forced. I've learned a lot from two of the most famous and successful retriever trainers who did all the winning 40 years ago. That is how I can say with 100% confidence that the Paul Shoemakers, Bert Carlson's, Roy and Jimmy Gonia force fetched every single FC and AFC they've ever made. Jimmy has the record right now for the most FC's and NFC's. Shoemaker trained every single Trainer on how to train....just simple facts there...

Pointers, I agree. I could see a dog with a bit of a natural retrieve completing the single retrieve required to get a title. I thought the retrieve call back was one of the silliest things I've ever seen at a dog event yet considering the "level" of performance/training which I'd expect from a dog who wins an professional level competition. Not putting pointers down but, retrieving a shot bird in a hunting condition should be part of a requirement for what we consider the "highest" level stake in a field trial

just thinking out loud here....don't bash me too hard.

[jetjockey]

The retrieve call back is stupid.  Only a few of the V breeds require it.  It's not required in AF nor do the AKC Pointer, Setter, or Brittany breeds require it. I'm all for it for achieving a hunt test title, but trials aren't hunt tests.  Most people don't understand why it isn't required in trials, nore do they understand why traditional pointing dog field trials are run off horseback.  Traditional pointing dog trials began down here in the south. 100 years ago rich guys quail hunted the big plantations off horseback and they had mule drawn carriages following them with assorted spaniels that they used to flush and retrieve the birds.  Pointing dogs were not expected to, nore did they want them to retrieve.  The original trials really haven't changed, but the hunting has.  IMO that's why venues like NSTRA are becoming more popular and Horseback trials are getting less popular. 

[Stilly bay]

. Not putting pointers down but, retrieving a shot bird in a hunting condition should be part of a requirement for what we consider the "highest" level stake in a field trial

x1000

.  The original trials really haven't changed, but the hunting has.  IMO that's why venues like NSTRA are becoming more popular and Horseback trials are getting less popular. 

 

maybe I am just a meat hunter who loves meat hunting dogs, but out of all the doggy games, NSTRA has always made the most sense to me.
not being allowed to retrieve is like leaving the job half finished.

[jetjockey]

Different strokes for different folks.  Again, down here,where trials started, it is not uncommon to use pointing dogs to find birds and flushing/retrieving dogs to do the flushing and retrieving work.  It's a different type of hunting than we are used to back home.  Quail hunting is as much as a sport as it is a tradition.  Once you begin to realize the differences, you realize why things are the way they are.   Until you've experienced the tradition of southern quail hunting, you just can't understand. 

[GrousePointer]

Different strokes for different folks.  Again, down here,where trials started, it is not uncommon to use pointing dogs to find birds and flushing/retrieving dogs to do the flushing and retrieving work.  It's a different type of hunting than we are used to back home.  Quail hunting is as much as a sport as it is a tradition.  Once you begin to realize the differences, you realize why things are the way they are.   Until you've experienced the tradition of southern quail hunting, you just can't understand.

The same applies to Coverdog, though a big part of the attraction to that is the focus on wild birds. A lot of guys who run in those events or buy dogs from those lines are looking for dogs proven on wild birds instead of pen raised poultry as is seen in the NSTRA. The ones who don't get trialed often get force broke, but that's not universally true either.

I think the reason for NSTRA's increasing popularity is for a couple of reasons. For one, the events can be viewed as effectively an extension of one's hunting season since unlike AF events, you're actually shooting birds. For another, it puts different dog breeds on a level playing field. Coverdog and some horseback events are either strictly Pointer and Setter events or, generally speaking, other breeds don't win. In NSTRA the win record is fairly evenly distributed among all of the breeds.

I honestly don't care if a Pointer or setter has any natural retrieve in it. As stated, it can be trained, and my primary concern with a pointing dog is whether or not it has the athleticism to hunt all day long, whether it can naturally point without much training on my part other than making it more staunch, and whether the dog has a good nose and can hunt. Being highly biddible is a HUGE requirement as well.

If I was looking for a German breed or a Brittany I might have some different priorities.

It takes a special kind of dog to get to and win at Ames. It's those qualities that I want in a Pointer or setter and those have nothing to do with retrieving. But that's my preference and taste and I recognize others have their own requirements and tastes, which is absolutely fine as far as I am concerned.

[Happy Gilmore]

Hunting Dog - Gun Dog Selection and Training: "Retrievers at Work" Kraft Film Productions 11min

Charles Morgan and Snuffy. Old time field trial greats.