WDFW Claims cow was not wolf kill

[Fowlweather25]

Wolves scavenge when they get the chance.  I think the point is, none of us were there, the biologist was there (probably with the rancher) and they decided it wasn't killed by wolves.  Who are you guys to determine that it was?    

You're right, no one knows 110%. That being said the fact of the matter remains that 3 animals have been found dead in the same area. And the wolves were sighted at the same time the necropsy was being performed. That's a pretty large red flag. Circumstantial as it may be. Seems pretty suspicious.

How many times has wdfw tried to hide things? And you honestly think its common for animals to just spontaineously drop dead? Coincidentally at the same time that wolves appear in the area? Just sayin.

[bobcat]

And you honestly think its common for animals to just spontaineously drop dead? Coincidentally at the same time that wolves appear in the area?

You didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyway. Yes, I do think it's common for animals to die in the winter. And it's no coincidence that wolves are living in a deer and and elk wintering area, in the winter!

[snowpack]

Wolves scavenge when they get the chance.  I think the point is, none of us were there, the biologist was there (probably with the rancher) and they decided it wasn't killed by wolves.  Who are you guys to determine that it was?    

You're right, no one knows 110%. That being said the fact of the matter remains that 3 animals have been found dead in the same area. And the wolves were sighted at the same time the necropsy was being performed. That's a pretty large red flag. Circumstantial as it may be. Seems pretty suspicious.

How many times has wdfw tried to hide things? And you honestly think its common for animals to just spontaineously drop dead? Coincidentally at the same time that wolves appear in the area? Just sayin.

I think the wolves were seen on both the dead elk too.  Feeding on the one in the pond and the other bull.  Didn't see much evidence of other predators in those photos (cougars will usually drag away and cover a kill).  Also didn't look like from the pictures that crows and other scavengers had made much impact on the carcass, so wolves just stumbled upon the carcass before the birds.
I guess a few other animals will probably mysteriously die in the area, in a frequency/pattern that hadn't been seen before wolves were in the area.

[Fowlweather25]

It wasn't a hard enough winter to kill off a large healthy bull elk and a cow that is healthy enough and young enough to bare a calf. I've raised a lot of cattle and they are very hearty animals yes they could have just died, it's possible. But it's not likely. This isn't Montana or Wyoming where they have large winter kills because it's in the negative range. With feet of snow on the ground.

I'm just saying that kind of a coincidence isn't likely. And I'm not about to start trusting Dfw again until they do something trustworthy. I've seen this crap first hand and it always seems to be the people who aren't living it and never have that have the most knowledge. I'm not trying to offend anyone I'm just saying its frustrating.

[bobcat]

I wasn't saying the cow was "winter kill." The elk. I have no idea how the cow died. All I know is what I read in the newspaper.

As for no winter kill in this state- have you heard of all the Mt St Helens elk dying over the winter, the last few years? It's not due to snow, or cold temperatures. They're dying from starvation due to lack of food.

[stuckalot]

What- are we wanting for these to be wolf kills? You know, animals do die in the winter, and especially at the very end of winter, AND especially older animals, like big bull elk. Is it so hard to imagine that wolves might feed on winter kill? It's a lot easier for them than having to chase one down and kill it.

Sorry, but I think I'd trust a biologist's opinion over anyone else on whether these animals were killed by wolves or not. And I would think this would be good news. These are animals that would have died anyway, the wolves are feeding on them, which means the wolves don't need to kill additional animals.

 
Are we getting to the point where every dead livestock animal is now a wolf kill?

What ever happened to cougar kills? Llamas were killed by coyotes a couple weeks ago.

So, when the llamas were killed by coyotes, that's how it was reported. However, when they found the dead cow, they could see wolves from where they were standing. You think that the rancher coming to that conclusion was pulling it right out of his butt or might there have been just a tad of justification? C'mon BT, if it looks like a wolf, walks like a wolf, and has a NY sirloin in it's mouth, what are the chances that was a cougar kill?

I am just saying that it seems like every dead animal we see now is a wolf kill according to people on this site. If someone in Puyallup has a sheep killed is it going to be a wolf until someone can prove it wrong? What about Port Angeles? Tri Cities?

So Big Tex if you were out wandering around and found a dead elk with a 30 cal bullet hole and size 12 boot tracks all around it you wouldn't suspect the guy walking around in size 12 boots with a 30-06?  Then the next week when you have trail cam pics of the same guy standing over a dead elk, knife in hand, rifle leaning against a tree, still a coincidence? Then the next week as your standing over another dead critter, while the guy in the size 12 boots with the 30-06 is perched on the hillside watching you through his spotting scope... Suspicious of the mans denials yet?

[Fowlweather25]

The mount st Helen's area happened because of a volcanic eruption and the ominous effect that it has had decades later. That is a niche issue. There is no shortage of feed over there and hasn't been for some time. These animals didn't die because of winter hardships. You don't have to be a biologist to put the pieces together. It wasn't a hard winter nor is it winter conditions now.

[6x6in6]

What- are we wanting for these to be wolf kills? You know, animals do die in the winter, and especially at the very end of winter, AND especially older animals, like big bull elk. Is it so hard to imagine that wolves might feed on winter kill? It's a lot easier for them than having to chase one down and kill it.

Sorry, but I think I'd trust a biologist's opinion over anyone else on whether these animals were killed by wolves or not. And I would think this would be good news. These are animals that would have died anyway, the wolves are feeding on them, which means the wolves don't need to kill additional animals.

 
Are we getting to the point where every dead livestock animal is now a wolf kill?

What ever happened to cougar kills? Llamas were killed by coyotes a couple weeks ago.

So, when the llamas were killed by coyotes, that's how it was reported. However, when they found the dead cow, they could see wolves from where they were standing. You think that the rancher coming to that conclusion was pulling it right out of his butt or might there have been just a tad of justification? C'mon BT, if it looks like a wolf, walks like a wolf, and has a NY sirloin in it's mouth, what are the chances that was a cougar kill?

I am just saying that it seems like every dead animal we see now is a wolf kill according to people on this site. If someone in Puyallup has a sheep killed is it going to be a wolf until someone can prove it wrong? What about Port Angeles? Tri Cities?

So Big Tex if you were out wandering around and found a dead elk with a 30 cal bullet hole and size 12 boot tracks all around it you wouldn't suspect the guy walking around in size 12 boots with a 30-06?  Then the next week when you have trail cam pics of the same guy standing over a dead elk, knife in hand, rifle leaning against a tree, still a coincidence? Then the next week as your standing over another dead critter, while the guy in the size 12 boots with the 30-06 is perched on the hillside watching you through his spotting scope... Suspicious of the mans denials yet?

Once the thorough investigation is complete and if enough evidence to prosecute exists, the prosecutor would advise an arrest be made.

Kind of like an autopsy.  Collect the evidence and make an educated assessment on the animals demise.  Except, no wolf arrests. 

[bobcat]

I'm still going to take a biologist's word for it, a biologist who was there, and who knows the facts. Elk don't live forever, if it's their time to die it's likely that it will happen in the winter. I'm surprised we're having a debate over whether elk actually die in the winter or not.

[cmiller85]

I'm still going to take a biologist's word for it, a biologist who was there, and who knows the facts. Elk don't live forever, if it's their time to die it's likely that it will happen in the winter. I'm surprised we're having a debate over whether elk actually die in the winter or not.

I am not sure that anyone is arguing that. Of course elk die in the winter. What people are having a hard time with is the fact that a healthy mature bull elk, a cow elk and a domestic cow all die relatively close together. Wolves are caught feeding on the corpses, and a biologist for the WDFW (who doesn't have much credibility with hunters due to their previous actions and statements on wolves) now states that wolves did not kill this domestic cow. It is just a huge coincidence that all these animals died after wolves came into the area maybe a month ago.

In most cases I would rely on what the biologist says as well. However, with WDFW's past on the subject and with the string of huge coincidences, I think you can at least reasonably see how someone would have a hard time swallowing that pill.

[vandeman17]

I'm still going to take a biologist's word for it, a biologist who was there, and who knows the facts. Elk don't live forever, if it's their time to die it's likely that it will happen in the winter. I'm surprised we're having a debate over whether elk actually die in the winter or not.

I am not sure that anyone is arguing that. Of course elk die in the winter. What people are having a hard time with is the fact that a healthy mature bull elk, a cow elk and a domestic cow all die relatively close together. Wolves are caught feeding on the corpses, and a biologist for the WDFW (who doesn't have much credibility with hunters due to their previous actions and statements on wolves) now states that wolves did not kill this domestic cow. It is just a huge coincidence that all these animals died after wolves came into the area maybe a month ago.

In most cases I would rely on what the biologist says as well. However, with WDFW's past on the subject and with the string of huge coincidences, I think you can at least reasonably see how someone would have a hard time swallowing that pill.

Couldn't have said it better myself. 

[Curly]

Since WDFW is the one paying ranchers for livestock killed by wolves, isn't it sort of a conflict of interest for them to be making the determination as to whether or not a wolf (or wolves) were responsible?  Assuming the bio isn't just flat out lying (I imagine they would have some integrity), he is likely going to at least have some bias to want to find some other cause.....isn't he??? 

[bobcat]

cmiller85,

That all sounds reasonable and I have no argument with any of that. I guess the only thing I really question is all the previous so called "lies" from the WDFW. I'm far from convinced that this has been so commonplace as people on here make it out to be.

As an example, the recent wolf/dog attack in the Twisp area: the original story that someone wrote up and put all over the Internet, said that the WDFW denied that it was a wolf attack, and that they insisted it was instead a cougar attack.

Well, that was far from the truth, it was completely exaggerated in an attempt to make the WDFW look bad. What really happened was in the initial investigation by the WDFW, a simple question was asked of the dog's owner, something to the effect of "could it have been a cougar?"

That's a normal question that anyone would have asked in that situation. Yet people choose to blow it out of proportion into something it wasn't. That's why I have a hard time believing the stories of all these outright lies.

[Curly]

Bobcat, what about when Dave Ware was discussing the special permit category system and he state that "there was broad public support" for the new format.  He flat lied to the commission and to our faces while he was up there discussing his baby.  They crammed that down our throats so fast we didn't have time to really argue against it.  He lied then, and I'm sure he will lie about anything else as long as it will get him what he wants.

[bobcat]

Well, for one thing, what do they have to gain by lying and saying a particular dead animal wasn't killed by wolves? Nothing. We know and they know, the wolves are going to kill and eat other animals. So whether they killed these particular animals or not, does it really matter? They will kill others, or they will not survive themselves. And hopefully if they are able to get collars on these wolves, they can keep better tabs on them.

Another point, did they in fact state that it's 100% certain that the cow was not killed by a wolf? I don't believe they did. I think they did their examination, and could not find any tell tale signs that a wolf killed it. That doesn't mean it wasn't killed by wolves, and I don't believe they ever said they were 100% sure that it wasn't.

And again, none of us were there, so everything we are posting here is nothing but pure speculation.