Barnes TMZ not expanding

[kerrdog]

This is the bullet I recovered from my first bull early season.  It was a 150 yard downhill shot (I ranged it afterward).  The bull dropped where he stood, but there was no expansion of the bullet.  Just a dent near the tip.  The polymer tip was still there, just smashed in a bit.

[erk444]

I have recovered 2 TMZs from elk, and both have expanded perfectly. Maybe they loose they're efficiency at that distance . My longest shot was 90 yards. I only shoot 90 grains of powder though. Where did you hit him? Maybe it didn't have a chance to expand if it hit his spine?

[Chukarhead]

Wow...that doesn't look anything like the bullets we've recovered.  I've recovered three in the last four years...and all have expanded really well.  Barnes recommends pretty hot loading to achieve that expansion, though, and at 150 yards, your bullet is quite a bit slower than at muzzle.  We shoot 130ish grains of 3f 777.  I've seen some photos of mashed up bullets that hit bone immediately (near shoulder, for example), but nothing like that.

[Jonathan_S]

The bull dropped where he stood.

You poor thing 

Doesn't sound terribly urgent, congrats on the bull.  Good luck figuring it out.

[kerrdog]

I was using 120 grains of Triple 7 3f.  I'm glad to hear that Barnes usually do expand, because I stocked up on them during the ammo scare. I was starting to question whether the solid copper/brass bullets expand reliably in the real world. Last year we pulled some unexpanded bloodlines out of a cow.

 

[sagewalker]

I shoot barnes tmz spitfire and ive never had a problem not expanding, they are the only bullet I will shoot in my muzzleloader. in my opinion they are the most accurate!

[MountainDevil54]

how high up in the shoulder did you hit it?  Barnes run off hydraulics and need water " body fluid, blood,fat,muscle" to fully open up. You can shoot them into dry sand and they wont open at all. Put a little plastic bag of water in front of that sand bucket and they'll completely open.

[slaymaker3]

135 pyro select 110 yards on a cow double lung. Performed perfectly

[kerrdog]

I'm thinking that maybe I hit a rib at an angle on the way in.  It probably made the bullet tumble a little so it wasn't able to open up.  I'm glad to hear that they will expand on something besides ballistic gelatin and lab conditions.

[BOOM!!]

This is the bullet I recovered from my first bull early season.  It was a 150 yard downhill shot (I ranged it afterward).  The bull dropped where he stood, but there was no expansion of the bullet.  Just a dent near the tip.  The polymer tip was still there, just smashed in a bit.

I was using 120 grains of Triple 7 3f.  I'm glad to hear that Barnes usually do expand, because I stocked up on them during the ammo scare. I was starting to question whether the solid copper/brass bullets expand reliably in the real world. Last year we pulled some unexpanded bloodlines out of a cow.

 

I'm thinking that maybe I hit a rib at an angle on the way in.  It probably made the bullet tumble a little so it wasn't able to open up.  I'm glad to hear that they will expand on something besides ballistic gelatin and lab conditions.

Hi kerrdog, this is confusing for me too. You hit a bull at 150 yards probably hitting a rib on entry, the bullet didn't expand and the bull dropped right where he stood. That tells me one of two things happened, the bullet hit the spine or the bullet hit a vital and the bull not being spooked bleed out right where he stood? Since you had the same problem with the bloodlines not expanding my guess would be that the triple7 is losing its potency because of all that wetside moisture in the air. I have read posts on other muzzleload forums that some people will not use triple7 because it loses its pop. If you think about it, those bloodlines should have penciled through since they didn't open up yet you found them inside.

[kerrdog]

I hope it's not my rifle.  It was the same rifle that that fired those bloodlines.  I wondered if the bullet tumbled in flight, (I often see sideways bullet holes in my targets after about 6 shots and the barrel is good and warm)  but I really don't think it could have retained the energy and accuracy for 150 years if it was tumbling the whole way.

Anyway, when we were gutting him I made a half attempt to see what had been hit.  One of his lungs was collapsed, but his heart looked great.  I'm guessing I nailed a major artery right next to the heart. He was very relaxed and did not know what happened.

[h20hunter]

My guess only from personal experience with Barnes is what was mentioned about velocity....powder may have moisture and you may have lost a little velocity. My last shot on a tough animal with a barnes also ended up being a no tracking needed shot but not the pretty expansion. I would suggest a crony and see what she is jumping out there at.

[Chukarhead]

Here are three data points... more critters have died in the past few years, but we haven't recovered the bullets (none from deer).  These three were from my elk.  The one that looks a little crumpled and lopsided was from a hard-away angle shot on a bull.  The bullet glanced off a rib.  All three bullets did an amazing amount of damage.  130 gr. of T7 FFFPP.  Hard-away bull at 70 yd, and broadside cows at 75 and 100 yards. Knight Bighorn.

[SkookumHntr]

Those looked like they performed perfectly! Im gonna start shooting that bullet out of my bighorn and see how they group! Havnt been too impressed on my last 2 elk with the Hornady sst 300grn.

[erk444]

Here are three data points... more critters have died in the past few years, but we haven't recovered the bullets (none from deer).  These three were from my elk.  The one that looks a little crumpled and lopsided was from a hard-away angle shot on a bull.  The bullet glanced off a rib.  All three bullets did an amazing amount of damage.  130 gr. of T7 FFFPP.  Hard-away bull at 70 yd, and broadside cows at 75 and 100 yards. Knight Bighorn.

Hey Chukarhead, where did you hit the broadside cows? I ask because I have shot 2 cows broadside. One at 70 and one at 100 and both shots passed through. Both were lung hits. I only use 90gr of ff through my bighorn. Was curious why yours stayed in and mine didn't, even with less powder?

[Chukarhead]

Hey Chukarhead, where did you hit the broadside cows? I ask because I have shot 2 cows broadside. One at 70 and one at 100 and both shots passed through. Both were lung hits. I only use 90gr of ff through my bighorn. Was curious why yours stayed in and mine didn't, even with less powder?

The 2011 cow was pretty far back... a little embarrassing, really.  Behind the ribs, but she only went about 50 yards and piled up.  The '13 cow was hit about 2" above the heart, double-lung.  Both bullets were caught in the far side hide.  The bullet from the bull actually passed through, but my buddies found it on the spur two weeks later while hunting.  From their description, it went about 25-50 yards past the bull before coming to rest.  Two other broadside shots inside of 50 yards from other members of our group have been pass-throughs.  One thing we've noticed over the years is that the bullets don't tend to travel very straight once inside of an animal.  They veer or bounce around quite a bit, which makes sense when you look at the final shape of the bullets.  We've had 90 degree broadside, behind-the-shoulder shots perforate the diaphragm.  On the upside, animals don't go far.  On the downside, you're never sure where that bullet is going to stop.

Edit: now that I think some more about it, yours might have passed through because they didn't expand, maintained more energy, and zipped through.  If I recall correctly (this is a stretch), Barnes says that the bullets require about 1300 fps to expand reliably, and you may not be getting that with 90gr of FFP at those ranges.  We pack 120-130 gr. for deer and elk just to make sure that we reliably hit the higher velocities recommended.  Knight's recommended loads with the Barnes bullets (Red Hots) tend to be 150 grains in pellet form, which are pretty zippy.

[carpsniperg2]

I have been around dozens of deer killed with them same bullet and all have preformed very well. I do agree with chukar and have had the same things happen to us. The way they open they really do weird things when they start to open. I have never seen one not open up like that.

[erk444]

Hey Chukarhead, where did you hit the broadside cows? I ask because I have shot 2 cows broadside. One at 70 and one at 100 and both shots passed through. Both were lung hits. I only use 90gr of ff through my bighorn. Was curious why yours stayed in and mine didn't, even with less powder?

The 2011 cow was pretty far back... a little embarrassing, really.  Behind the ribs, but she only went about 50 yards and piled up.  The '13 cow was hit about 2" above the heart, double-lung.  Both bullets were caught in the far side hide.  The bullet from the bull actually passed through, but my buddies found it on the spur two weeks later while hunting.  From their description, it went about 25-50 yards past the bull before coming to rest.  Two other broadside shots inside of 50 yards from other members of our group have been pass-throughs.  One thing we've noticed over the years is that the bullets don't tend to travel very straight once inside of an animal.  They veer or bounce around quite a bit, which makes sense when you look at the final shape of the bullets.  We've had 90 degree broadside, behind-the-shoulder shots perforate the diaphragm.  On the upside, animals don't go far.  On the downside, you're never sure where that bullet is going to stop.

Edit: now that I think some more about it, yours might have passed through because they didn't expand, maintained more energy, and zipped through.  If I recall correctly (this is a stretch), Barnes says that the bullets require about 1300 fps to expand reliably, and you may not be getting that with 90gr of FFP at those ranges.  We pack 120-130 gr. for deer and elk just to make sure that we reliably hit the higher velocities recommended.  Knight's recommended loads with the Barnes bullets (Red Hots) tend to be 150 grains in pellet form, which are pretty zippy.

Dang, I never thought about that. I have recovered 2 from other elk that were perfect though. One was 72 yards quartering to me, and the other was about 90 yards quartering away. I might try to bump up my powder though cause its a good point. I have noticed the bullet exiting in a strange place too. My deer was almost perfect broadside this year. I hit him a little far back, and the bullet came out near his back leg I just shrugged it off as him being more quartered than I thought, but now you got me thinking.

[buckreaper]

.54 cal 325 gr with 110 grains of 777 fff.  Bull was 85 yards slightly quartering away uphill.  Found just under the skin on the opposite side behind front shoulder.

[kerrdog]

Anyone think it makes a difference if the bullet has the polymer tip?  It seems like a hollow point would open more reliably.

[ML_Hunter]

I have shot several deer and a couple of elk with the TMZ's, the bullet worked and expanded perfectly. I would post a photo, but the bullets are back in Lacey and I'm no where near there at the moment. I have done several test with different bullets and the TMZ's had the best and most consistent expansion...IMO.

Maybe your powder was wet?

The Polymer tip is there to assist in the expansion. Which is the reason that Barns, Nosler, and almost every bullet manufacture offers bullets with polymer tips. You can try switching over to a hollow point, but I don't know if you will see that much of a difference.