BC Wolf & Cougar Reduction: To Benefit Recovery of Mountain Caribou

[Sitka_Blacktail]

This is going to be good. They are going to reduce moose populations and prevent deer herds from growing, to try to stabilize caribous herds that by most reports are shrinking because of habitat issues. So somehow, moose and deer populations can grow in the face of increasing wolves? But caribou can't? The large moose herds and deer herds are causing the wolf population to grow? So we have to reduce deer and moose herds to shrink wolf and cougar populations so caribou populations will supposedly grow? 

But wait....... If the wolves don't have moose and deer to eat, won't they be more likely to target caribou? And conversely, if the wolves have all those deer and moose to eat, it's likely wolves aren't spending much time slaughtering caribou.

My prediction? Way too much money will be wasted on predator control and not enough on habitat restoration. Hunters will complain about a lack of moose and deer,...... and wolves and cougars and bears will be blamed even though they will be hunted mercilessly. That will be an excuse for even more "predator control". And there will be no noticeable bump upwards of the caribou herds. The net result will be less huntable animals.

If deer and moose herds are expanding and doing well, why not encourage that. Maybe this is a natural regime change.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Here's a good simile for you. Say WDF&G decided to try to grow the Woodland Caribou herd in the NE corner. Now there have never been many there as that area is at the margins of their habitat because of logging of old growth timber that supports the lichen these caribou prefers.

But say they decided to hit the wolves and cougars and maybe bear in the area very hard, blaming predators for the decline. I'm sure many here would merrily cheer that decision. But then lets say that as in BC, Fish and Wildlife decided to knock down the deer herd in the area and also hit the moose pretty hard to prevent wolves from having a prey base to survive and thrive on as a way to "protect" the caribou?

Now how many would approve that plan, and how many think it would actually grow the caribou her to any significant number? Do you think it would make up for the lower numbers of deer and moose? Good luck with that plan.

[AspenBud]

This is going to be good. They are going to reduce moose populations and prevent deer herds from growing, to try to stabilize caribous herds that by most reports are shrinking because of habitat issues. So somehow, moose and deer populations can grow in the face of increasing wolves? But caribou can't? The large moose herds and deer herds are causing the wolf population to grow? So we have to reduce deer and moose herds to shrink wolf and cougar populations so caribou populations will supposedly grow? 

But wait....... If the wolves don't have moose and deer to eat, won't they be more likely to target caribou? And conversely, if the wolves have all those deer and moose to eat, it's likely wolves aren't spending much time slaughtering caribou.

My prediction? Way too much money will be wasted on predator control and not enough on habitat restoration. Hunters will complain about a lack of moose and deer,...... and wolves and cougars and bears will be blamed even though they will be hunted mercilessly. That will be an excuse for even more "predator control". And there will be no noticeable bump upwards of the caribou herds. The net result will be less huntable animals.

If deer and moose herds are expanding and doing well, why not encourage that. Maybe this is a natural regime change.

Moose I can't speak to, but my understanding is they have in influx of white tails up there. If true, it will take a lot to kill them off. They are rats with antlers.

[JLS]

Maybe this is a natural regime change.

This just might be the pink elephant sitting in the living room.

[KFhunter]

This is going to be good. They are going to reduce moose populations and prevent deer herds from growing, to try to stabilize caribous herds that by most reports are shrinking because of habitat issues. So somehow, moose and deer populations can grow in the face of increasing wolves? But caribou can't? The large moose herds and deer herds are causing the wolf population to grow? So we have to reduce deer and moose herds to shrink wolf and cougar populations so caribou populations will supposedly grow? 

But wait....... If the wolves don't have moose and deer to eat, won't they be more likely to target caribou? And conversely, if the wolves have all those deer and moose to eat, it's likely wolves aren't spending much time slaughtering caribou.

My prediction? Way too much money will be wasted on predator control and not enough on habitat restoration. Hunters will complain about a lack of moose and deer,...... and wolves and cougars and bears will be blamed even though they will be hunted mercilessly. That will be an excuse for even more "predator control". And there will be no noticeable bump upwards of the caribou herds. The net result will be less huntable animals.

If deer and moose herds are expanding and doing well, why not encourage that. Maybe this is a natural regime change.

Moose I can't speak to, but my understanding is they have in influx of white tails up there. If true, it will take a lot to kill them off. They are rats with antlers.

Are you talking about the oil sands or southern interior?   

[KFhunter]

This is going to be good. They are going to reduce moose populations and prevent deer herds from growing, to try to stabilize caribous herds that by most reports are shrinking because of habitat issues. So somehow, moose and deer populations can grow in the face of increasing wolves? But caribou can't? The large moose herds and deer herds are causing the wolf population to grow? So we have to reduce deer and moose herds to shrink wolf and cougar populations so caribou populations will supposedly grow? 

But wait....... If the wolves don't have moose and deer to eat, won't they be more likely to target caribou? And conversely, if the wolves have all those deer and moose to eat, it's likely wolves aren't spending much time slaughtering caribou.

My prediction? Way too much money will be wasted on predator control and not enough on habitat restoration. Hunters will complain about a lack of moose and deer,...... and wolves and cougars and bears will be blamed even though they will be hunted mercilessly. That will be an excuse for even more "predator control". And there will be no noticeable bump upwards of the caribou herds. The net result will be less huntable animals.

If deer and moose herds are expanding and doing well, why not encourage that. Maybe this is a natural regime change.

Moose I can't speak to, but my understanding is they have in influx of white tails up there. If true, it will take a lot to kill them off. They are rats with antlers.

You and Sitka are mixing two very different places together and cherry picking to support your argument.   I can tell you haven't spent much time in BC,  EVERYTHING you write is very regurgitated and worse, cherry picked and muddled.

[AspenBud]

This is going to be good. They are going to reduce moose populations and prevent deer herds from growing, to try to stabilize caribous herds that by most reports are shrinking because of habitat issues. So somehow, moose and deer populations can grow in the face of increasing wolves? But caribou can't? The large moose herds and deer herds are causing the wolf population to grow? So we have to reduce deer and moose herds to shrink wolf and cougar populations so caribou populations will supposedly grow? 

But wait....... If the wolves don't have moose and deer to eat, won't they be more likely to target caribou? And conversely, if the wolves have all those deer and moose to eat, it's likely wolves aren't spending much time slaughtering caribou.

My prediction? Way too much money will be wasted on predator control and not enough on habitat restoration. Hunters will complain about a lack of moose and deer,...... and wolves and cougars and bears will be blamed even though they will be hunted mercilessly. That will be an excuse for even more "predator control". And there will be no noticeable bump upwards of the caribou herds. The net result will be less huntable animals.

If deer and moose herds are expanding and doing well, why not encourage that. Maybe this is a natural regime change.

Moose I can't speak to, but my understanding is they have in influx of white tails up there. If true, it will take a lot to kill them off. They are rats with antlers.

You and Sitka are mixing two very different places together and cherry picking to support your argument.   I can tell you haven't spent much time in BC,  EVERYTHING you write is very regurgitated and worse, cherry picked and muddled.

And I can tell you haven't spent much time around white tails. The only reason farmers don't pay people to shoot them in the eastern half of the country is because people pay them to be able to hunt them. They can''t kill enough of them.

If white tails are booming up in BC and Alberta there is a good reason why wolves are flourishing up there.

[WAcoyotehunter]

The caribou situation is a tough one.  There are several serious limiting factors for caribou recovery.  #1 is habitat loss.  There are LOTS of big clear cuts and fairly young stands of trees in Southern BC and N Idaho/NE Washington.  That's not a simple fix and is going to take time for those stands to develop. 
#2 Predators- wolves and lions are both eating caribou.  We know that.  Lions are easy to control, additional pressure from hound hunters will knock the cat population.  Wolves are tougher.  BC and Idaho are on track to manage them.  WA is still handcuffed by their wolf plan...  #3 Highway 3 at Salmo Pass is a problem.  Some sort of safety needs to be provided for these animals moving North/South across the border. #4 disruption by illegal snowmobiles inside the closure area.  Some of the closure areas are nonsense (IMO) and some of them are CRITICAL.  The snowmobiles in the cirques that hold caribou cause problems and need policed.

Killing the wolves in that area is (also IMO) an obvious first step, but it needs to be the first step in a series of other efforts.

There are some collars on the Caribou now, hopefully they will show more accurate mortality information and help managers hone in on the most critical-immediate needs.

[bearpaw]

The caribou situation is a tough one.  There are several serious limiting factors for caribou recovery.  #1 is habitat loss.  There are LOTS of big clear cuts and fairly young stands of trees in Southern BC and N Idaho/NE Washington.  That's not a simple fix and is going to take time for those stands to develop. 
#2 Predators- wolves and lions are both eating caribou.  We know that.  Lions are easy to control, additional pressure from hound hunters will knock the cat population.  Wolves are tougher.  BC and Idaho are on track to manage them.  WA is still handcuffed by their wolf plan...  #3 Highway 3 at Salmo Pass is a problem.  Some sort of safety needs to be provided for these animals moving North/South across the border. #4 disruption by illegal snowmobiles inside the closure area.  Some of the closure areas are nonsense (IMO) and some of them are CRITICAL.  The snowmobiles in the cirques that hold caribou cause problems and need policed.

Killing the wolves in that area is (also IMO) an obvious first step, but it needs to be the first step in a series of other efforts.

There are some collars on the Caribou now, hopefully they will show more accurate mortality information and help managers hone in on the most critical-immediate needs.

  I agree the caribou are a tough one, we are on the fringe of their range which makes it even tougher. Back when the wolf plan was being developed I tried to bring the caribou issue up with the Dept and Commission but it seems the caribou were largely ignored.

I would agree with limiting snowmobiling and logging in truly critical areas, as long as caribou aren't used for another big land grab by enviro greenies. Unfortunately the enviro greenie whacko groups will use an issue like caribou to further their agenda of limiting access and use of as much land as they can.

WAcoyote, how many caribou are being killed on Hwy 3?

Are the Canadian tribes still hunting these caribou?

[wolfbait]

This is going to be good. They are going to reduce moose populations and prevent deer herds from growing, to try to stabilize caribous herds that by most reports are shrinking because of habitat issues. So somehow, moose and deer populations can grow in the face of increasing wolves? But caribou can't? The large moose herds and deer herds are causing the wolf population to grow? So we have to reduce deer and moose herds to shrink wolf and cougar populations so caribou populations will supposedly grow? 

But wait....... If the wolves don't have moose and deer to eat, won't they be more likely to target caribou? And conversely, if the wolves have all those deer and moose to eat, it's likely wolves aren't spending much time slaughtering caribou.

My prediction? Way too much money will be wasted on predator control and not enough on habitat restoration. Hunters will complain about a lack of moose and deer,...... and wolves and cougars and bears will be blamed even though they will be hunted mercilessly. That will be an excuse for even more "predator control". And there will be no noticeable bump upwards of the caribou herds. The net result will be less huntable animals.

If deer and moose herds are expanding and doing well, why not encourage that. Maybe this is a natural regime change.

Moose I can't speak to, but my understanding is they have in influx of white tails up there. If true, it will take a lot to kill them off. They are rats with antlers.

You and Sitka are mixing two very different places together and cherry picking to support your argument.   I can tell you haven't spent much time in BC,  EVERYTHING you write is very regurgitated and worse, cherry picked and muddled.

And I can tell you haven't spent much time around white tails. The only reason farmers don't pay people to shoot them in the eastern half of the country is because people pay them to be able to hunt them. They can''t kill enough of them.

If white tails are booming up in BC and Alberta there is a good reason why wolves are flourishing up there.

BS, we have watched the whitetail deer drop just like the mule deer, the mule deer have been hit the hardest though. Tell us A-bud, what happens when there is no more prey in an area, do the wolves move to a different area or do they start killing more livestock? Wacoyote always skirts around the question.

[WAcoyotehunter]

The caribou situation is a tough one.  There are several serious limiting factors for caribou recovery.  #1 is habitat loss.  There are LOTS of big clear cuts and fairly young stands of trees in Southern BC and N Idaho/NE Washington.  That's not a simple fix and is going to take time for those stands to develop. 
#2 Predators- wolves and lions are both eating caribou.  We know that.  Lions are easy to control, additional pressure from hound hunters will knock the cat population.  Wolves are tougher.  BC and Idaho are on track to manage them.  WA is still handcuffed by their wolf plan...  #3 Highway 3 at Salmo Pass is a problem.  Some sort of safety needs to be provided for these animals moving North/South across the border. #4 disruption by illegal snowmobiles inside the closure area.  Some of the closure areas are nonsense (IMO) and some of them are CRITICAL.  The snowmobiles in the cirques that hold caribou cause problems and need policed.

Killing the wolves in that area is (also IMO) an obvious first step, but it needs to be the first step in a series of other efforts.

There are some collars on the Caribou now, hopefully they will show more accurate mortality information and help managers hone in on the most critical-immediate needs.

  I agree the caribou are a tough one, we are on the fringe of their range which makes it even tougher. Back when the wolf plan was being developed I tried to bring the caribou issue up with the Dept and Commission but it seems the caribou were largely ignored.

I would agree with limiting snowmobiling and logging in truly critical areas, as long as caribou aren't used for another big land grab by enviro greenies. Unfortunately the enviro greenie whacko groups will use an issue like caribou to further their agenda of limiting access and use of as much land as they can.

WAcoyote, how many caribou are being killed on Hwy 3?

Are the Canadian tribes still hunting these caribou?

The enviros blew it when they made unrealistic Critical Habitat requests.  Ultimately, it only hurt the resource (caribou in this case)

There has not been a documented strike on hwy 3 for a couple years, (no collars either...) but there were 3 cows killed one winter, I think it was 2009

[bearpaw]

The caribou situation is a tough one.  There are several serious limiting factors for caribou recovery.  #1 is habitat loss.  There are LOTS of big clear cuts and fairly young stands of trees in Southern BC and N Idaho/NE Washington.  That's not a simple fix and is going to take time for those stands to develop. 
#2 Predators- wolves and lions are both eating caribou.  We know that.  Lions are easy to control, additional pressure from hound hunters will knock the cat population.  Wolves are tougher.  BC and Idaho are on track to manage them.  WA is still handcuffed by their wolf plan...  #3 Highway 3 at Salmo Pass is a problem.  Some sort of safety needs to be provided for these animals moving North/South across the border. #4 disruption by illegal snowmobiles inside the closure area.  Some of the closure areas are nonsense (IMO) and some of them are CRITICAL.  The snowmobiles in the cirques that hold caribou cause problems and need policed.

Killing the wolves in that area is (also IMO) an obvious first step, but it needs to be the first step in a series of other efforts.

There are some collars on the Caribou now, hopefully they will show more accurate mortality information and help managers hone in on the most critical-immediate needs.

  I agree the caribou are a tough one, we are on the fringe of their range which makes it even tougher. Back when the wolf plan was being developed I tried to bring the caribou issue up with the Dept and Commission but it seems the caribou were largely ignored.

I would agree with limiting snowmobiling and logging in truly critical areas, as long as caribou aren't used for another big land grab by enviro greenies. Unfortunately the enviro greenie whacko groups will use an issue like caribou to further their agenda of limiting access and use of as much land as they can.

WAcoyote, how many caribou are being killed on Hwy 3?

Are the Canadian tribes still hunting these caribou?

The enviros blew it when they made unrealistic Critical Habitat requests.  Ultimately, it only hurt the resource (caribou in this case)

There has not been a documented strike on hwy 3 for a couple years, (no collars either...) but there were 3 cows killed one winter, I think it was 2009

OK, I thought the Hwy might have been a larger problem. One cougar or 1 wolf that keys in on caribou could cause more damage to the herd than that each year.

Do you think if Idaho and BC reduce predators in that area that they will try to augment the herd again?

[WAcoyotehunter]

I think they will.  I'm hopeful that they do!

[bearpaw]

I think they will.  I'm hopeful that they do!

Although there are factors that obviously need changed first for herd augmentation to be successful, I hope they will try, it would be a shame to spend the type of money that has been spent on wolves and then not do anything to save woodland caribou.

[WAcoyotehunter]

I think they will.  I'm hopeful that they do!

Although there are factors that obviously need changed first for herd augmentation to be successful, I hope they will try, it would be a shame to spend the type of money that has been spent on wolves and then not do anything to save woodland caribou.

I agree.  The caribou will be gone if we don't make some changes.  Wolves/lions are one of them.  HWY 3 safety is another, and protection from disturbance is also important.