BC Wolf & Cougar Reduction: To Benefit Recovery of Mountain Caribou

[Elkaholic daWg]

This whole thing is a charade to mask the real problem, over development. Wolves are a scapegoat for projects like the tar sands development.
Meanwhile the real cause of the decline will continue unimpeded.......development.

Here's the real culprit.   https://www.google.com/search?q=tar+sands+images&client=firefox-a&hs=SsT&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=1RMBU9fDDcfgoAS244LQCw&ved=0CCcQsAQ&biw=1351&bih=633

 You might get away with that Habitat story south of the 49'th But north of it  you're just proving you are a liberal

[bearpaw]

I see "moss" as I call it on low level limbs in the photos that KFhunter posted, limbs that the caribou could reach, maybe you should look at the photos again?

I also see this same moss on trees all around NE Washington on trees of all sizes including on limbs low to the ground. I still say that an 80% reduction in predators is what is needed for our Washington/Idaho caribou herd and for the BC herd just as biologists recommend.

FYI - Tar sand development in Alberta has little to do with caribou declines in BC or with our herd in ID/WA. 

The moss is only utilized during a short period of the year,  what they aren't saying is that the caribou LOVE logged out clear cuts in the early spring eating fireweed, groundsel and other shoots. 

Summer months they're up top in the alpine areas where logging never reaches anyways.


One thing I didn't see mentioned was wolverine, are they going to lower their numbers as well?

You are correct, the caribou utilize moss in the late winter when other food is out of reach under snow. I doubt wolverine numbers are substantial in the southerly mountain caribou range.   

[KFhunter]

And KF hunter, you can choose to believe science and scientists or not, but in the forests we are talking about in Canada, the trees you are showing are old growth. Trees grow much slower and are overall smaller than southern forests. From the above linked article..... "While the plan requires industry to restore caribou habitat, restoration will not benefit caribou until 80 years later, when the forest is again old enough to support them. Meanwhile, continued logging and petroleum development negatively impact caribou and their habitat immediately."  And I have been through Mt caribou habitat in Northern BC over 40 times and I've seen many Mt Caribou. I see them every year driving to and from Alaska, Usually in the Muncho Lake Provincial park to Ft Nelson area but sometimes in other areas.  A lot of the lichen or "Old Man's Beard" you show is out of the reach of caribou and doesn't do the any good.

Sorry Sitka, those pics are all of logged areas.  If you're calling that old growth then you're more ignorant than I thought. 

Congratulations on making the drive from Alaska to the lower 48 and seeing a caribou licking fertlizer in the ditches of BC highways,  doesn't make you a caribou expert lol
by that token I should be a captain on a cruise ship since I flew over the ocean a few times 

[AspenBud]

To be fair, the Canadians openly admit that habitat changes are a large portion of the problem. Particularly in Alberta, but also in BC, changes in habitat have led to a deer explosion which in turn led to a bigger wolf population.

Point being I think both you and Sitka are wrong, or at the very least over looking the real problem.

That said, the only way to do anything for the Caribou now is to reduce wolf numbers until the habitat becomes less favorable to deer, if it ever does again.

This is actually a textbook example of what I mean by habitat not being as great as you think it is. Sure, the caribou can live there and eat, but subtle changes to the surroundings also meant the deer could too, which brought in more wolves...

[KFhunter]

I see "moss" as I call it on low level limbs in the photos that KFhunter posted, limbs that the caribou could reach, maybe you should look at the photos again?

I also see this same moss on trees all around NE Washington on trees of all sizes including on limbs low to the ground. I still say that an 80% reduction in predators is what is needed for our Washington/Idaho caribou herd and for the BC herd just as biologists recommend.

FYI - Tar sand development in Alberta has little to do with caribou declines in BC or with our herd in ID/WA. 

The moss is only utilized during a short period of the year,  what they aren't saying is that the caribou LOVE logged out clear cuts in the early spring eating fireweed, groundsel and other shoots. 

Summer months they're up top in the alpine areas where logging never reaches anyways.


One thing I didn't see mentioned was wolverine, are they going to lower their numbers as well?

You are correct, the caribou utilize moss in the late winter when other food is out of reach under snow. I doubt wolverine numbers are substantial in the southerly mountain caribou range.   

http://snowymountainalpinetours.blogspot.com/2010_11_01_archive.html

However, the Wolverine exist in this valley in very high numbers...they also prey on vulnerable Mountain Caribou. The Wolverine is currently listed as a "species of concern" in Canada by Cosewic.

http://www.pc.gc.ca/eng/pn-np/bc/glacier/natcul/natcul6/carcajou-wolverine/carcajou-wolverine1.aspx

Diet

The wolverines' appetite is legendary. Their scientific name, Gulo gulo, comes from the Latin word for glutton, but really they eat no more than any other animal their size. It's just that they aren't particularly picky eaters. Once thought to be almost exclusively eaters of carrion, we now know they are accomplished predators. They will kill caribou and goats, animals several times their size; they also prey on small mammals such as marmots, porcupine, ground squirrels and being omnivore, will eat roots and berries1. Much of their diet consists of large mammals that were previously killed by predators or avalanches1.

I also read a thread on the trapperman site about a guy doing wolverine work,  there are some valleys with a pretty large population of wolverine.




I'm fairly UTD on this stuff because I used to snowmobile in those areas.  Logged a lot of miles in "Caribou country",  but never seen one as they hang down in the dark timber and that's no fun to ride.

[KFhunter]

To be fair, the Canadians openly admit that habitat changes are a large portion of the problem. Particularly in Alberta, but also in BC, changes in habitat have led to a deer explosion which in turn led to a bigger wolf population.

Point being I think both you and Sitka are wrong, or at the very least over looking the real problem.

That said, the only way to do anything for the Caribou now is to reduce wolf numbers until the habitat becomes less favorable to deer, if it ever does again.

This is actually a textbook example of what I mean by habitat not being as great as you think it is. Sure, the caribou can live there and eat, but subtle changes to the surroundings also meant the deer could too, which brought in more wolves...

good job

the cut blocks as they are called in Canada are excellent graze for deer and moose and that's the problem  -  the habitat is TOO good 

[bearpaw]

To be fair, the Canadians openly admit that habitat changes are a large portion of the problem. Particularly in Alberta, but also in BC, changes in habitat have led to a deer explosion which in turn led to a bigger wolf population.

Point being I think both you and Sitka are wrong, or at the very least over looking the real problem.

That said, the only way to do anything for the Caribou now is to reduce wolf numbers until the habitat becomes less favorable to deer, if it ever does again.

This is actually a textbook example of what I mean by habitat not being as great as you think it is. Sure, the caribou can live there and eat, but subtle changes to the surroundings also meant the deer could too, which brought in more wolves...

The Canadians say the habitat changes have increased other prey numbers but will support caribou, however, the caribou need protection from the increasing wolf and cougar populations. The Canadians have done the studies and seem to have established a plan to help the caribou. I am wishing them good luck with their plan, I hope it works. At least the Canadians are doing something, WA caribou are getting no help with the uncontrolled predator numbers that are impacting them. 

KFH, maybe the wolverines are a predator the Canadians have overlooked. I could see them impacting young caribou in particular. 

[AspenBud]

To be fair, the Canadians openly admit that habitat changes are a large portion of the problem. Particularly in Alberta, but also in BC, changes in habitat have led to a deer explosion which in turn led to a bigger wolf population.

Point being I think both you and Sitka are wrong, or at the very least over looking the real problem.

That said, the only way to do anything for the Caribou now is to reduce wolf numbers until the habitat becomes less favorable to deer, if it ever does again.

This is actually a textbook example of what I mean by habitat not being as great as you think it is. Sure, the caribou can live there and eat, but subtle changes to the surroundings also meant the deer could too, which brought in more wolves...

good job

the cut blocks as they are called in Canada are excellent graze for deer and moose and that's the problem  -  the habitat is TOO good 

Now you're catching on to what I've been trying to say. Be it not enough escape cover, not enough food, or too much of both, one way or another you have to question what about the habitat is making a particular ungulate so easy to prey on by wolves.

I have a similar argument with people representing the other side of the wolf controversy. Man has changed the habitat enough over the years that some sort of management is going to have to happen. You can't just let nature sort it out, because it will, and not much will be left in the end.

Habitat is not irrelevant.

[KFhunter]

With the right snow conditions I imagine they can just lope along on top and latch on to a caribou and go for a ride until the animal is exhausted.

[bearpaw]

To be fair, the Canadians openly admit that habitat changes are a large portion of the problem. Particularly in Alberta, but also in BC, changes in habitat have led to a deer explosion which in turn led to a bigger wolf population.

Point being I think both you and Sitka are wrong, or at the very least over looking the real problem.

That said, the only way to do anything for the Caribou now is to reduce wolf numbers until the habitat becomes less favorable to deer, if it ever does again.

This is actually a textbook example of what I mean by habitat not being as great as you think it is. Sure, the caribou can live there and eat, but subtle changes to the surroundings also meant the deer could too, which brought in more wolves...

good job

the cut blocks as they are called in Canada are excellent graze for deer and moose and that's the problem  -  the habitat is TOO good 

Now you're catching on to what I've been trying to say. Be it not enough escape cover, not enough food, or too much of both, one way or another you have to question what about the habitat is making a particular ungulate so easy to prey on by wolves.

I have a similar argument with people representing the other side of the wolf controversy. Man has changed the habitat enough over the years that some sort of management is going to have to happen. You can't just let nature sort it out, because it will, and not much will be left in the end.

Habitat is not irrelevant.

The Canadians acknowledged the habitat changes and increases in other prey and predators in their study, that's why they made the recommendations that they made.

[AspenBud]

To be fair, the Canadians openly admit that habitat changes are a large portion of the problem. Particularly in Alberta, but also in BC, changes in habitat have led to a deer explosion which in turn led to a bigger wolf population.

Point being I think both you and Sitka are wrong, or at the very least over looking the real problem.

That said, the only way to do anything for the Caribou now is to reduce wolf numbers until the habitat becomes less favorable to deer, if it ever does again.

This is actually a textbook example of what I mean by habitat not being as great as you think it is. Sure, the caribou can live there and eat, but subtle changes to the surroundings also meant the deer could too, which brought in more wolves...

The Canadians say the habitat changes have increased other prey numbers but will support caribou, however, the caribou need protection from the increasing wolf and cougar populations. The Canadians have done the studies and seem to have established a plan to help the caribou. I am wishing them good luck with their plan, I hope it works. At least the Canadians are doing something, WA caribou are getting no help with the uncontrolled predator numbers that are impacting them. 

KFH, maybe the wolverines are a predator the Canadians have overlooked. I could see them impacting young caribou in particular. 

I am not disagreeing with any of that.

But at the end of it, the primary cause of their decline is changes in habitat which have led to an increase in wolves. That should not be construed to mean wolves are not a problem now. But it does mean they are the resulting problem from the primary cause. If the habitat hadn't changed we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Caribou and wolves have lived in Canada since long before Europeans showed up, something recent caused their coexistence to no longer be feasible.

Again, if the aim is to make the exiting habitat full of deer, caribou, moose, etc fine, do what's needed to make that happen. If the goal is to restore the true balance in the ecosystem, fine, make that happen. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that last one can be accomplished without some sort of predator management, at least for some years to come, and let's not kid ourselves into thinking it's all the wolf's fault.

[AspenBud]

To be fair, the Canadians openly admit that habitat changes are a large portion of the problem. Particularly in Alberta, but also in BC, changes in habitat have led to a deer explosion which in turn led to a bigger wolf population.

Point being I think both you and Sitka are wrong, or at the very least over looking the real problem.

That said, the only way to do anything for the Caribou now is to reduce wolf numbers until the habitat becomes less favorable to deer, if it ever does again.

This is actually a textbook example of what I mean by habitat not being as great as you think it is. Sure, the caribou can live there and eat, but subtle changes to the surroundings also meant the deer could too, which brought in more wolves...

good job

the cut blocks as they are called in Canada are excellent graze for deer and moose and that's the problem  -  the habitat is TOO good 

Now you're catching on to what I've been trying to say. Be it not enough escape cover, not enough food, or too much of both, one way or another you have to question what about the habitat is making a particular ungulate so easy to prey on by wolves.

I have a similar argument with people representing the other side of the wolf controversy. Man has changed the habitat enough over the years that some sort of management is going to have to happen. You can't just let nature sort it out, because it will, and not much will be left in the end.

Habitat is not irrelevant.

The Canadians acknowledged the habitat changes and increases in other prey and predators in their study, that's why they made the recommendations that they made.

I have no disagreement with that.

[KFhunter]

big uncontrolled wildfires and beetle kill did the same thing 200-300 years ago

Take a ride over 3b and see the miles and miles of beetle kill,  it's amazing the damage done.







http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/ftp/hre/external/!publish/web/bcmpb/year9/BCMPB.v9.2011Kill.pdf

[Sitka_Blacktail]

And KF hunter, you can choose to believe science and scientists or not, but in the forests we are talking about in Canada, the trees you are showing are old growth. Trees grow much slower and are overall smaller than southern forests. From the above linked article..... "While the plan requires industry to restore caribou habitat, restoration will not benefit caribou until 80 years later, when the forest is again old enough to support them. Meanwhile, continued logging and petroleum development negatively impact caribou and their habitat immediately."  And I have been through Mt caribou habitat in Northern BC over 40 times and I've seen many Mt Caribou. I see them every year driving to and from Alaska, Usually in the Muncho Lake Provincial park to Ft Nelson area but sometimes in other areas.  A lot of the lichen or "Old Man's Beard" you show is out of the reach of caribou and doesn't do the any good.

Sorry Sitka, those pics are all of logged areas.  If you're calling that old growth then you're more ignorant than I thought. 

Congratulations on making the drive from Alaska to the lower 48 and seeing a caribou licking fertlizer in the ditches of BC highways,  doesn't make you a caribou expert lol
by that token I should be a captain on a cruise ship since I flew over the ocean a few times 

What? You grab some pictures off the internet and claim to know that the area they are in is logged?

Never seen a caribou licking fertilizer in the ditches. And never claimed to be an expert. I just pass on expert information and my opinion of what it means.

[KFhunter]

Never seen a caribou licking fertilizer in the ditches. And never claimed to be an expert.  I just pass on expert information and my opinion of what it means.

translation:


You have zero experience or personal knowledge so you latch on to tidbits of internet information that you want to believe then you put your personal spin on it.


I knew it all along but thanks for the confirmation.