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Author Topic: Crossbows  (Read 16511 times)

Offline popeshawnpaul

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Crossbows
« on: March 17, 2014, 11:21:36 AM »
This topic has come up lately.  Recently, we dealt with the issue of scopes being used on crossbows.  WSB felt that if the scope was not magnified, we saw no reason to stand in the way of a rule change allowing a "scope".  Additionally, at the last GMAC we discussed disabled eligibility to use a crossbow during archery season.  With over 1000 disabled now allowed to hunt during archery season, do you think this needs to be looked at?  One thought is no, because the reported statistical success rate with a crossbow is similar to that of standard archery equipment.  I'd enjoy any thoughts you might have.

Offline 4fletch

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 10:46:54 PM »
Hi Pope. Scope or no scope , I think that if the disabled has a eye problem where one cannot use pin sights a non magnified optic would be justified. I am not for a magnified optics although

Online lokidog

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 11:08:41 PM »
Crossbows should be allowed for disabled (can't pull a bow or hold it back) archery hunters during archery season, or during modern rifle seasons.  Not sure they should be allowed for vision issues during archery season though, allow other optics on a bow instead if you have the ability to draw and hold one.

I don't see a need to restrict magnification on a scope for a crossbpow within these parameters.   :twocents:

Offline Snapshot

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2014, 02:22:43 PM »
New York Bowhunters, Inc did it right regards to the crossbow...only the most severely, permanently disabled may qualify to use that weapon during archery season. Others can get a Modified Longbow Authorization that allows them to use the types of modified archery equipment that WSB fought hard to have legalized in Washington in the early part of the century.

http://www.newyorkbowhunters.com/pc-committee.html
I'd just like to remind everybody that it's about the hunting, not just the killing. In other words, it's about the total experience, the sport itself and the challenge involved. Bowhunting, done right, is a justifiable and honorable pursuit. Done for the wrong reasons, simply chalking up kills and seeking personal glory, it's taking away rather than giving back to a principled way of life that has to be experienced to be understood. G.StCharles

Offline buckfvr

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2014, 03:47:59 PM »
What about old and cant draw/hold back and see very well ????  I think xbows are fine during modern season, same as modern muzzle loaders.....either can have a scope during modern.

We cant do everything for everyone........I have a neighbor who hunts elk with an xbow, and deer with a 300win mag.........sound right to you ?????

There comes a time when the body wont function as we like, and it should be accepted........not compensated for with rules and regulations.  WHen I can no longer draw and hold, I am done.....if I cant see my pins, I am done.....if I can no longer see through a rifle scope and rest that rifle on something to shoot, I am done.............unless ofcourse you guys want to accomodate me with rules and regulations that address old and tired and cant see..............

Offline popeshawnpaul

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2014, 07:55:57 AM »
New York Bowhunters, Inc did it right regards to the crossbow...only the most severely, permanently disabled may qualify to use that weapon during archery season. Others can get a Modified Longbow Authorization that allows them to use the types of modified archery equipment that WSB fought hard to have legalized in Washington in the early part of the century.

http://www.newyorkbowhunters.com/pc-committee.html

We can use as many adjectives as we want such as "severely" and "permanently" but the language is similar to our state.  It's not hard to get a doctor to say what is required in New York or WA state.  There has to be some middle ground between Buckfvr's point of view and our current state.  I do believe that many of our disabled hunters can pull a minimum draw weight bow at about 40 lbs.  One should do all they can do to try and be legal with a bow first.

Offline 4fletch

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2014, 07:44:22 PM »
I agree with most of what has been brought up. Except I feel for our wounded warriors who are missing parts of their body and want to hunt in the archery season they should be allowed to hunt with crossbows

Offline buckfvr

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2014, 08:03:16 PM »
This is where you come in Shawn, thanks for taking the time to help address these issues.

I do agree with the part concerning our wounded warriors.......its the " pretend to be disabled " that riles me.  I see a lot of dishonesty amongst the supposed to be disabled.  We have to take care of those that need this program but need to weed out the turds.

Offline RadSav

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2014, 08:43:57 PM »
We ran into guys last late season pounding the brush pretty dang hard with their crossbows.  And in country I avoid on days I'm feeling sore and tired.  If you can hunt that country that way carrying a bulky and heavy crossbow I'm not sure I would consider you "ambulatory".  And if you can cock a crossbow by yourself I expect you can probably draw a 50# compound.  A few days later we saw these same guys cutting, splitting and stacking large rounds of firewood at camp.  I'm still trying to figure out how they met the states definition of disabled :dunno:

I am fine with truly disabled hunters using crossbows during archery season.  Crossbows aren't more accurate and are not better long range tools.  They are just easier to shoot and do not require the level of practice to become efficient.  Don't even care if they are using scopes on them as that is imo balancing out their limitations to my own. 

I do have a problem with guys driving around with loaded and cocked crossbows mounted to the hood of their vehicle.  I see a few guys doing this in the Winston during late season.  If they were dangers to just themselves I'd say who cares about idiots weeding themselves out of the gene pool.  But some innocent bystander is probably going to be the one injured in this case.  And all archers are going to take the hit when that story hits the news.

Scopes on crossbows during modern firearm season...what's the problem?
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Offline bobcat

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2014, 10:25:21 PM »
I really think if anything, crossbows should at least be allowed during modern firearm season, ANYWHERE, not just firearm restricted areas. That makes absolutely no sense.

Offline Jonathan_S

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2014, 09:11:06 AM »
I would 100% support giving special privilege to wounded warriors.  That being said they are a tiny demographic of  persons wanting to bowhunt with a disability permit so I'd be careful about making rules based on wanting to do something for our honorable service members because there would be thousands of leeches waiting to benefit.

It's amazing how many "disabled" people hunting alone for deer/elk can't handle a bow or a 3 mile hike but can handle an elk or deer once it's down   :dunno:

I watched a "disabled" hunter cap a doe with a Glock out his window on a county road and then throw it in his canopied truck bed.  I confronted him but got told to "eff off, I'm disabled..."  Well he did have the orange sticker   :dunno:

Shortly thereafter he had blue and red lights in his rearview   :yike:  thank God for cellphones   :chuckle:

Anyway, back on topic  ;)
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Offline SquirrelHunter

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2014, 09:59:06 AM »
I have to chime in on this as I hunt with a crossbow.  Giving our wounded warriors access to use a crossbow is a great idea, but where do you draw the line on what wounded is, is it missing an arm/hand?  If it isn't taken to the extreme of missing an extremity how do you prove the "wounded"?  I know many of service members that play the disability system in both the Army side and the VA side.  Now as far as your everyday person using a crossbow, why not?  I had a C-spine surgery and fusion that didn't work out, that along with a shoulder injury allows me to pull a 40lb draw bow back but not hold it for more than 3-5 seconds before my shoulder gives out sending the arrow who knows where, and sending the bow back towards my face (yes it happened during a hunt).  So why shouldn't I be allowed to use a crossbow to continue my hunting experience?

I feel like people see the "disabled hunter" using the crossbow and are upset because they feel we have a "greater advantage" over the traditional archery user by adding distance or accuracy.  Hunt the method you enjoy, or the method that you can physically handle, enjoy your hunt and let others enjoy theirs whether you agree with the method or not.   
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Offline Jonathan_S

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2014, 12:33:35 PM »
Hunt the method you enjoy, or the method that you can physically handle, enjoy your hunt and let others enjoy theirs whether you agree with the method or not.   

Ordinarily I would totally agree with this sentiment.  However the reason this is a sticking point in this case is because scoped crossbows are a a major leap in technology (and ease of use ) that would translate to shorter archery seasons and less opportunity for everyone.

So if my method of hunting is to hunt everyday in September, I can't very well support the use of crossbows can I?

I think crossbows should really only be allowed for use in modern firearm seasons...not just in firearm restricted areas though.   :twocents:
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Offline SquirrelHunter

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2014, 01:29:11 PM »
As far as magnified scoped crossbows are concerned I am not really for that, but something like a holographic sight or non-magnified red dot I am all for.  I feel that instead of limiting the use of accessories on the crossbow or the crossbow themselves the state should look at making it harder to obtain a permit for these items.  Ive got the medical records to back up the need for one, but when the dr filed out his portion on my application he wrote 2-3 lines and that was it, 2 weeks later I had the permit in the mail. 
WDFW even called to make sure I didn't want the authorization to use a scope before they sent me my permit, and we didnt even check the box or offer up any documentation of bad eyesight.  So I really believe one of the biggest issues here is the monitoring of the issuing of permits.
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Offline Snapshot

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2014, 03:37:25 PM »
I really think if anything, crossbows should at least be allowed during modern firearm season, ANYWHERE, not just firearm restricted areas. That makes absolutely no sense.

I agree...and that would take care of the scope issue once and for all.
I'd just like to remind everybody that it's about the hunting, not just the killing. In other words, it's about the total experience, the sport itself and the challenge involved. Bowhunting, done right, is a justifiable and honorable pursuit. Done for the wrong reasons, simply chalking up kills and seeking personal glory, it's taking away rather than giving back to a principled way of life that has to be experienced to be understood. G.StCharles

Offline Longbowz

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2014, 09:20:07 AM »
Crossbows are really a separate weapon and best fit  in the general (modern) season.  If they want scopes or whatever in their season let them fight for it.  It's not really bowhunters problem.

Offline Gringo31

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2014, 10:40:02 AM »
I'm not in favor.

Those who are disabled can shoot from their vehicles, have special permits they can apply for etc.

If it came right down to it and I was severely disabled, with the help of a friend I could find a way to get into a blind and sit and wait.  I've seen videos of all types of disabled hunters getting it done including a blind guy shooting a bear with a bow (being coached by the guy behind him where he was aiming, yes the pins were alters to allow for the backup to see)

I just don't know where to draw the line.  I'm older and in less shape than I was 10 years ago so the state should let me use motorized vehicles in places they aren't allowed to compensate.  IF they don't like that, maybe I should sue to make them take me up there piggy back  :chuckle:

I just think that if I can no longer pull a bow back, I better look at going to modern firearm.   :twocents:
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Offline Jonathan_S

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2014, 11:14:27 AM »
Crossbows are really a separate weapon and best fit  in the general (modern) season.  If they want scopes or whatever in their season let them fight for it.  It's not really bowhunters problem.

Excellent point! 
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Offline washelkhunter

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2014, 11:19:57 AM »
A lot of this disabled criteria is such a joke. We ran into a couple during AR last year and the guy informed us his wife was below him on the trail with a crossbow due to disability. Oh? Whats her issue? Shes deaf. WTH!

Offline ghosthunter

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2014, 11:50:17 AM »
I don't care so much about the crossbow. I think they should be able to use it during modern season.

Most game agents see it as a poaching tool.

As far as sights. The hunt populations eyes are getting weaker and I think Red dot should be allowed across the board. Crossbows, muzzy too.

We want to keep as many hunters as we can hunting as long as we can. It will be to everyone benefit. :twocents:
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Offline rover758

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2014, 08:30:41 AM »
 (Was on one day back in July of '10 and re-found this link while doing my research for using a crossbow in WA.)  This is my first post on this site .... what wuz I thinkin' to choose such a topic??!! 

First ... I am a disabled hunter and a disabled veteran after over 21 years in the military.  Archery hunting is my first passion but, as my condition has deteriorated, I am physically unable to pull a bow back.  I want to hunt and I want to hunt archery.  That means with a crossbow.  (There are plenty of hand cranks on the market that will allow me to cock the bow.  As a personal choice, it wouldn't be cocked until I was set in my ground blind and it would be un-cocked before it goes back in the truck.)  All that being said I can see the validity of those who think crossbow hunters should only use them during the modern firearm season.  I have been doing my research on them and there is quite a bit of (manufacturer) boasting out there on their capabilities.  I think those capabilities give weight to the opinion that crossbows should only be allowed for use during modern firearm.  However, regardless of validity, that shuts me out of my passion.  I agree with Sundance ... it's an ethical problem.  I'm not looking for a loophole ... I'm looking to be able to continue to archery hunt.  I would disagree with Jonathan_S in a matter of semantics.  He termed the Glock operator a "hunter".  I would not defile the those of us who call ourselves hunters with the truest sense of what that means by calling that individual a hunter.   (I enjoyed reading the quote at the bottom of Snapshot.  He has a clue as to what I mean ... although I obviously disagree I should have to move to modern firearm season.)   Without a doubt, there will always be those who take advantage of the system for their own good and put the bulls eye on my back when I don't deserve it.  My buddy shot a magnificent 6x7 bull two years ago and it shamed me that I carried 1 load out for every 3 of his.  The pack-out was only a half mile from the truck and on the last load I went to my knees 100 yards short of the truck.  I had given my all to every nuance of the hunt.  It's enough that I can't look in the mirror any more and call myself "Bowhunter".  Being a bowhunter was a sense of pride; it was a calling.  You know what I mean.  That feeling that makes you want to put a sticker up in your back window that says, "It's a Bow Hunting Thing ... You Wouldn't Understand."  I'd at least like to still consider myself an archery hunter.  Each person has to address their own personal ethics (or lack thereof) on using or abusing that Red Placard on the dashboard.  Yes ... I split log-rounds in camp.  I can do 2 or 3 and then I'm stoved up for 3 hours - that's the price I pay.  I can hunt 3 miles out and 3 miles back but it takes me all day.  I passed on a nice 4x4 when I could have shot him out the truck window.  Does that make me better than the guy who didn't pass on the doe?  Perhaps not.  It's all the personal choices we make that give hunters bad names or good names.  I just ask that you please please please don't put me out in the field with gun crowd.  And in all my rambling this may be a moot point.  The "state" returned my crossbow permit application saying the Doctor's statement that, post surgery, I am and will always be physically unable to safely draw or hold a bow was insufficient to warrant a permit.  I will continue to be part of archery elk camp.  Even if it means being the camp Bee Otch. Ya'll come in and sit a spell, hear?  Tell me your lies and I'll tell you mine.   :)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 08:36:55 AM by rover758 »
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Offline Gringo31

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2014, 08:55:04 AM »
Welcome to the site Rover!

I hear what you are saying....I think if I were in your shoes, I'd be looking for a ground blind on private property with a crossbow.  I know some folks who would allow hunting on a limited basis with your background and story.   :tup:
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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2014, 08:57:51 AM »
Rover, good post, welcome to the site.  From previous posts it does seem like there needs to be a major overhaul of WDFW's system for awarding "disabled" permits.  It seems silly, to me anyways, that a person who is deaf would get one whereas a person who's doctor indicates an inability to physically draw a bow would not.

Offline RadSav

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2014, 09:01:42 AM »
Welcome Rover.  Thank you for your service to this country!

I think guys like you are exactly why we have the crossbow exception we do. I see absolutely no problem sharing an elk camp with you during archery season.  Just please, let me do the wood splitting :chuckle:

I actually believe crossbows should be legal for all Washington state hunters.  Though I do believe healthy, capable, non-disabled hunters should use them in a season other than archery season.  Would make sense to combine them in a primitive weapon season like muzzy season.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 09:38:53 AM by RadSav »
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Offline rover758

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Re: Crossbows
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2014, 12:51:40 PM »
Thanks Gringo and lokidog.  Ya'll can weigh in and tell me if I'm being silly or not .... I know ... this is supposed to be a crossbow post ... maybe I'll start another one on if I should play my "Companion Hunter" card or not.  I'm leaning toward NOT and we'll leave it at that.  If it comes down to it and I can't hunt, I've already worked it out with my hunting buddy for making 2-person ground blinds.  He'll let the arrow fly and I'll capture it on tape.  I do agree the whole disabled thing needs a look-see.  I too have ran across disabled hunters - one with a crossbow and the way he was hefting it around and lifting things made me wonder how he got a permit.  To keep with the post .... yes, I do think crossbows should be allowed for archery season if they are genuinely (underscore genuinely) needed.  IF they are allowed during archery season then.... No ... I do not think they should have scopes.  I read the litigation on "voiding warranty" and "unfairly hindering access" that led to the scope thing.  Hogwash.  Yes .... it's costly (around $210) to retrofit a crossbow for pins but .... as a new contact I made today told me ... I AM a Bowhunter and since I am "man" ... warranties go into the camp fire along with owner's manuals.  LOL.  I'll do what it takes to continue to enjoy hunting and all that goes with it.  Come September you'll either find me in the West side of Nile again up by Bumping or back over at 49 Degrees North. That's where my buddy got his big bull and the one he got was the smaller of the two.  Ask me where so I can lie!!! :chuckle:
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