HOOF ROT MEETING IN VANCOUVER WASHINGTON

[bbarnes]

Vancouver – April 15, 6-8 p.m., Community Room, 1200 Fort Vancouver Way.

[pianoman9701]

I'll be attending. Thanks for the heads up.

[bbarnes]

Reminder meeting is tomorrow be there ask what the plan is for treatment and containment.

[jackmaster]

Reminder meeting is tomorrow be there ask what the plan is for treatment and containment.

if one of you could, would you ask if they plan on using this as a way for them to move wolves into the region? just curious, i see it as a possibility, i doubt they will fess up though

[bbarnes]

The questions that needs to be ask is,how many FTE s are working on the wolf issues in Washington.I bet there is at least 25 to 30 and the problem is they can't manage what they have now.In my opinion there's something bigger going on here.I have heard so many different story's from these people nothing is consistent there's hole in there theory's ect ect.

[pianoman9701]

I will plan on asking about the wolves, JackM. I'm also planning on asking exactly how much research has been devoted to the effect of chemical sprays WITH adjuvents being used in this area.

[jackmaster]

I will plan on asking about the wolves, JackM. I'm also planning on asking exactly how much research has been devoted to the effect of chemical sprays WITH adjuvents being used in this area.

thanks pianno i look forward to your update

[pianoman9701]

I had so much smoke blown up my butt last night that I'm going in for a colon cancer screen this AM.

The dog and pony show put on by Nate Pamplin and the two doctors was not impressive. Apparently, they've looked at every possible cause of hoof rot except for agricultural chemicals.

On their slide show, the pointed to the levels of selenium and copper that were lower in the affected elk than were found in sheep and cattle. They indicated that they had no point of reference for what it should be in healthy elk. When I questioned them, they said they had tested healthy elk all over the state and that there was virtually no difference between healthy elk and affected elk selenium and copper levels. So, it appears that levels of selenium and copper are a non-issue, even though they presented it as a possibility until questioned.

Elk have been showing up with hoof rot almost exclusively on WEYCO land since the late 1980s. 2008 was the year that reports started exploding. 2009 was the first year they performed sampling, or killing elk to do tests. The very next year they did this was 2013! They couldn't explain that the occurrences of affected elk exploded in 2008, they sampled in 2009, and then did no more sampling until 2013. This is odd. Why wouldn't they be doing extensive sampling each year?

On the elk they examined, they performed toxicology studies. They tested for viruses, unusual bacteria, all sorts of stuff. They didn't test for any agricultural chemicals at all. The only thing they did do was studies of cell structure which might indicate the presence of those chemicals. But no testing for the chemicals themselves. There is also no live capture to date so they can observe, change diet, or collar and release for further tracking and study. This seems odd.

I asked who's funded these and got some very vague answers.

BBarnes asked most of the questions regarding specific chemicals and they were like "huh?". They had absolutely no information on sprayed chemicals and their possible affect on these animals. I asked how this could be, that herbicides are the elephant in the room that everyone's ignoring. The elk are exclusively found on WEYCO and adjacent lands and nothing's being done to study what the chemicals are doing. They didn't have a clear answer.

I'm not sure why the WDFW would still feel the need to coddle WEYCO at the expense of our wildlife, especially in light of the fact that they're no longer going to be allowing public use of the St. Helens Tree Farm. When ucwarden says that the WDFW doesn't care about our wildlife as much as our fish and shellfish, everything points to him being correct. 

[bobcat]

I'm not sure why the WDFW would still feel the need to coddle WEYCO at the expense of our wildlife, especially in light of the fact that they're no longer going to be allowing public use of the St. Helens Tree Farm.

This is exactly what I've been thinking! 

And I'm not surprised in the least at their lack of knowledge in regards to the chemicals.

It's almost like they've been told not to do anything to upset the timber industry. Yes, kind of like how they won't touch the Yakama Indians. 

Thanks for the report. I will be attending the meeting in Chehalis. Not sure why, but I guess I also want to see how clueless they are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Blacktail Sniper]

When is the meeting in Lewis Co happening?

[bobcat]

When is the meeting in Lewis Co happening?

Tonight, 6:00 - 8:00

http://wdfw.wa.gov/news/mar2514a/

And unfortunately, I just found out I can't go. My daughter has a softball game tonight.

[Blacktail Sniper]

Thanks. 

[bowbuild]

Being a applicator by trade....my STRONG suggestion is to bring with you the MSDS AND LABELS of the herbicides in question. Veterinarians are NOT educated in herbicides and pesticides. I will give you a example......Frontline for fleas....chemical Fripronil.....at the vet it is a medicine. I use a termicide called Termidor....guess what...Fripronil.... now in my truck it is a poison to most peoples thinking. Now here is where it gets ironic.....from memory, I believe frontline is 9.8% fripronil you apply that directly to your pet full strength, and some come with a "plus" on the label....that is a additional chemical called a insect growth regulator. Now my bottle of Termidor is 9.1% Fripronil and by label and law I dilute that to .08% .1% for ants and termites. Your animals are glowing in compared to what I apply!

I say all the above because VETS are continually telling potential customers that my chemicals are dangerous......and yet they hand out their "medicines" without a thought! Vets don't know *censored* about chemicals....so unless you bring them the labels you are talking Greek to them! Heads up!

Bowbuild

[JLS]

Before everyone gets out their pitchforks and anti-chemical banners, ask yourself this question again.  Why doesn't hoof rot show up in other areas of private timberlands, i.e. Skagit Valley, North Bend, NE Washington, Northern Idaho, Coastal Oregon?

[bobcat]

Before everyone gets out their pitchforks and anti-chemical banners, ask yourself this question again.  Why doesn't hoof rot show up in other areas of private timberlands, i.e. Skagit Valley, North Bend, NE Washington, Northern Idaho, Coastal Oregon?

I don't know. That's what I want the experts to study and determine the answer to that, and then tell me why hoof rot in elk is only in SW Washington.

Could it have something to do with the eruption of Mt St Helens, and then the massive area that was replanted all at once? And is the spraying of chemicals on a large scale a part of the puzzle?

Well I don't know, but I'm not a chemist or a biologist. Why don't they ban the spraying of timberlands for ten years and see if the health of the elk in the area improves. My guess is that it will.

I'd also guess that we would see a very large increase in deer, grouse, and other wildlife.

[JLS]

Why don't they ban the spraying of timberlands for ten years and see if the health if the elk in the area improves. My guess is that it will. I'd also guess that we could see a very large increase in deer, grouse, and other wildlife.

I agree completely with these statements, but I don't believe you'll see the hoof rot go away.

Some of the highest elk numbers in Idaho are on Potlatch timber ground, and I've never heard a single thing about hoof rot there.

I also agree that I would like to see some research done to find the causative factors here and determine if there is any way to manage/mitigate hoof rot.

[Curly]

Maybe it is different in ID simply because of the soil not being similar to what is found in the areas in SW WA that are having problems?  And maybe it is the wetter climate?

But the wetter climate doesn't explain why parts of Western OR and other parts of Western WA have not been affected.......

Maybe the spraying program that WEYCO uses in SW WA is different than what is used in other areas?  Somebody needs to find out exactly what is being sprayed and in what concentrations and if it is different in other areas.

Hoof rot could very well have nothing to do with chemicals............but maybe it does? 

[JLS]

Hoof rot could very well have nothing to do with chemicals............but maybe it does?

Entirely possible.  My whole point is don't get in a rush to try and connect the dots without looking at the big picture.

[Curly]

Hopefully someone researching the cause of hoof rot has gotten data on what chemicals, and what frequency and concentrations and what size of areas are being sprayed.  It may help shed light on if herbicides have any correlation at all with hoof rot. 

I would expect that they would have compiled that data since at least 1996.............but sadly I won't be surprised to learn that they have not researched it whatsoever.

[Curly]

Another thing I would hope researchers have compiled data on is the soil type in the areas of elk with hoof rot.

It would be fairly easy to check the NRCS website for mapped soil types and see if there is some correlation to soil type and hoof rot. 

http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx

[pianoman9701]

Another thing I would hope researchers have compiled data on is the soil type in the areas of elk with hoof rot.

It would be fairly easy to check the NRCS website for mapped soil types and see if there is some correlation to soil type and hoof rot. 

http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx

They have taken soil samples to try and find the trepomenes and spirochetes that are present in the lesions. They've had no luck with that so far.

[pianoman9701]

Hopefully someone researching the cause of hoof rot has gotten data on what chemicals, and what frequency and concentrations and what size of areas are being sprayed.  It may help shed light on if herbicides have any correlation at all with hoof rot. 

I would expect that they would have compiled that data since at least 1996.............but sadly I won't be surprised to learn that they have not researched it whatsoever.

The WDFW has no interest in compiling that data, apparently, since the effects of herbicides have yet to be examined by them.  However, our own BBarnes has done quite a bit of research over the last 3 years in that regard and has some startling findings, including recent findings which seem to indicate that some regulations are being broken in the types and combinations of chemicals being sprayed. I'll leave that up to him for specifics.

[jackmaster]

Another thing I would hope researchers have compiled data on is the soil type in the areas of elk with hoof rot.

It would be fairly easy to check the NRCS website for mapped soil types and see if there is some correlation to soil type and hoof rot. 

http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx

They have taken soil samples to try and find the trepomenes and spirochetes that are present in the lesions. They've had no luck with that so far.

did you get a chance to ask about wolves being a tool for controlling hoof rott pianno?

[bbarnes]

I want to thank all the folks, that showed up for last nights meeting.Also I talked with law makers in our state today on this issue.One of those law makers was Ed Orcutt,who has know about this situation since 2006,and in my opinion has done nothing.Things got a little heated between us which is never a good thing.He told us at the Longview meeting he would look into what was being sprayed.Its been three weeks,and  this guys a forester and he still couldn't tell me,what's being sprayed and wanted to argue the permits I had in my hand.I urge all of you going to the meeting tonight,in Chehalis to ask Ed why he hasn't looked into this,he's know about the whole time.Also why no test are being done to see if the chemicals,are in the blood streams of the ELK.Also for those of you wonder why there doing more study's now,it's because I wrote a letter of Criminal Negligence to the state over this issue.I contacted the Washington Forest Law Center today over this issue asking for them to look into this.STAY TUNED I would ask every reader to call them and voice your concerns over what's going on he were getting a ROTTEN DEAL.

[pianoman9701]

Another thing I would hope researchers have compiled data on is the soil type in the areas of elk with hoof rot.

It would be fairly easy to check the NRCS website for mapped soil types and see if there is some correlation to soil type and hoof rot. 

http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx

They have taken soil samples to try and find the trepomenes and spirochetes that are present in the lesions. They've had no luck with that so far.

did you get a chance to ask about wolves being a tool for controlling hoof rott pianno?

Yes I did. Mr. Pamplin said that the only options that they've discussed were different human culling options - MHs, hunters, gamies, hired guns. They're not at that juncture yet, according to them.

[SnakeEyes]

Another thing I would hope researchers have compiled data on is the soil type in the areas of elk with hoof rot.

It would be fairly easy to check the NRCS website for mapped soil types and see if there is some correlation to soil type and hoof rot. 

http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx

They have taken soil samples to try and find the trepomenes and spirochetes that are present in the lesions. They've had no luck with that so far.

did you get a chance to ask about wolves being a tool for controlling hoof rott pianno?

Yes I did. Mr. Pamplin said that the only options that they've discussed were different human culling options - MHs, hunters, gamies, hired guns. They're not at that juncture yet, according to them.

Sandra Jonker sure made a funny looking face when you asked the question about wolves. It looked like she was in disbelief.

[pianoman9701]

I imagine the two doctors make a lot of funny-looking faces, especially when they're asked to come up with scientific results without including specific important factors. This whole thing is laid out like a cover-up. Going back to the gap of samplings between 2009-2013, it occurs to me that there may well have been some done and that they might have conclusively pointed to agricultural chemicals as the culprit. I can just not imagine how the outbreak spiked in 2008, they did their first samplings in 2009, and then did nothing more until 2013. This makes absolutely zero sense to me. Why would they stop if they didn't have any answers or if the outbreak didn't cease? The problem has certainly only increased since then. 

[ELKBURGER]

Its pretty obvious it has been low on their priority list.

[pianoman9701]

Another question I'd asked Mr. Pamplin was "where is the USFWS in all this?" The answer I received was basically that elk are a state-managed species and the USFWS doesn't get involved. Apparently, I didn't ask the right question, which should have been "where's the federal government in all this?"

Then this AM, I read this article and highlighted for you, the informed reader, a pertinent statement:
http://www.avionics-intelligence.com/news/2014/04/13/drones-help-monitor-skagit-valley-elk-herd.html

Drones help monitor Skagit Valley elk herd
2014-04-13
Kimberly Cauvel Skagit Valley Herald
Eyes in the sky
By Kimberly Cauvel
Skagit Valley Herald
Fish and Wildlife shies away
The state Department of Fish and Wildlife has worked closely with Native American tribes and other agencies to monitor the elk herd and mitigate conflicts with landowners.
But it kept its distance from this survey because of the use of unmanned aircraft, which the governor's office has barred executive-branch agencies and staff from purchasing and using for the next 15 months.
The week before the start of the survey, Gov. Jay Inslee vetoed a bill that created privacy rules for government and regulatory use of unmanned aircraft.
"We thought that applied to us, and participating in (Western Washington University professor David) Wallin's project would be contrary to the instructions in that order," Fish and Wildlife research scientist Cliff Rice said.
MOUNT VERNON, Wash. - Looking out over the town of Hamilton in the upper Skagit River valley from a hillside on state Department of Natural Resources land, a team of federal unmanned aircraft operators and local researchers scouted for elk.
They couldn't see elk themselves from that high up, but they knew they were there. Using radio monitors, they noted the general location of collared animals before sending a former military drone over the landscape to capture video footage.
The three-day survey over a section of public land was a first-time trial run using the technology to survey elk in dense, forested areas. Surveyors will compare the number of radio-tagged elk in the area at the time of the survey with the number of tagged animals observed in the video footage to estimate the herd's population.
The U.S. Geological Survey's Unmanned Aircraft Systems Project Office and U.S. Bureau of Land Management, both based in Denver, provided and operated the 4-pound, battery-powered aircraft. The U.S. Army previously used the planes in Afghanistan and Iraq, operator Mark Bauer said.
The USGS office is evaluating how well the technology works for research purposes. Wildlife and habitat surveys account for 70 percent of research requests, but this was the first one focused on elk.
Western Washington University environmental science professor David Wallin leads the local project and plans to compare the results to helicopter surveys of the North Cascades elk herd, also known as the Nooksack herd.
Sauk-Suiattle Tribe natural resource technician Ramo Misanes, Stillaguamish Tribe wildlife biologist Jen Sevigny and other tribal members helped locate collared elk.
"The tribe has been involved in trying to restore this herd since 2000," Sevigny said. The tribes want to make sure their Point Elliott Treaty rights are met to maintain their cultural hunting traditions, she said.
The state Department of Fish and Wildlife has worked closely with the tribes and other agencies to monitor the herd and mitigate conflicts with landowners in upriver communities.
But it kept its distance from this survey because of the use of unmanned aircraft, which the governor's office barred executive-branch agencies and staff from purchasing and using for the next 15 months.
The week before the start of the survey, Gov. Jay Inslee vetoed a bill that created privacy rules for government and regulatory use of unmanned aircraft.
"We thought that applied to us, and participating in Wallin's project would be contrary to the instructions in that order," Olympia-based Fish and Wildlife research scientist Cliff Rice said.
In his April 4 letter on the decision, Inslee said he vetoed Engrossed House Bill 2789 because he did not think it required enough government transparency. He plans to organize a task force to re-evaluate the issue for the 2015 legislative session.
Also because of public privacy concerns associated with the use of the military technology, the permitting process for the research project took six months, Wallin said. Not only did the project have to be cleared with the Federal Aviation Administration, but also with U.S. and Canadian military because of the radio frequencies the equipment was set up to use.

Copyright 2014 Spokane Spokesman-Review

Not only are the feds tracking our elk, they're doing it with Predator drones. What else are they doing over our skies with Predator drones? Inslee may have put a moratorium on the state's use of them, but he seems fine with the feds using them over our state. My first question is "Does Governor Inslee know the text of the 10th Amendment to our beloved Constitution?" My next question is "Is Governor Inslee requiring a full account of the activities of these drones over WA?"

I'm going to write both the DFW and the Governor's office about this today. I would encourage others to do so, as well.

[snowpack]

Sounds like one of the smaller backpack drones, not a predator.  Predators are huge, way more than 4 lbs (more like 4,000 lbs) and do not run off batteries.  Probably using the switchblade.  But yes, I understand your point.

[pianoman9701]

Sounds like one of the smaller backpack drones, not a predator.  Predators are huge, way more than 4 lbs (more like 4,000 lbs) and do not run off batteries.  Probably using the switchblade.  But yes, I understand your point.

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't see that weight.

[Rainier10]

Any one check out page 60 of the new hunting regs?  There is an entire page about hoof rot. Page 46 in the elk hunting section talks about new proposed rules for field dressing of hoof rot elk coming in the future.

[bbarnes]

Do you wonder why that's in there?Sounds like there not sure if there safe to eat.Maybe trying to get out of a legal situation.Is the supposed treponema transferable to humans?Are the chemicals being sprayed in the forest,in there blood stream and we're eating them?One things for sure there story has changed a lot during this process.It would be interesting to get all of the WDFW that have been involved,and the politicians to take a lie detector test.I bet the results would be mind boggling to find out how long they've know what's been going on.

[pianoman9701]

BBarnes, I also don't think it's possible that they didn't do samplings between 2009 and 2013. I think they did and the results they got were conclusive and the powers that be shut it down. It's inconceivable to me that the year after the number of affected elk skyrocketed that they stopped testing them or doing toxicologies or any necropsies for four years. How is that scientifically justifiable?

[bbarnes]

Here's what needs to happen you as a master hunter need to get all of the reps in each region together,and we all need to have a meeting.We need to ask that the Governor,WDFW director and the chair of the commission,the department of agriculture DNR,ecology,EPA and some law makers on both sides of the fence sit down.We will discuss our concerns of management ,mismanagement ,forest practices and do a time line.Also get as many people to attend the next hoof rot committee meeting,as possible at region 5s office in May, and voice there concerns to the committee.We need to all do as you and I did in Vancouver,disprove all of the theory's.Also we need to ask for all the study's they have collected to date,so we can see for our selfs if any things being done.Its also time to talk with the sports fishing people and let them know these forest practices are effecting endangered species of fish.