Why most probably don't see wolves as much of a public safety problem

[KFhunter]

WDFW said they turned down the cattlemens trapper was because they didn't want to appear to have favoritism, or appear that their decisions are being swayed by an outside organization.

I can understand that.  I know they took money from CNW to up the wolf poaching reward, but i could see why they would not want a special interest group to have their fingerprints on the data collection efforts. 

If the Cattlemen have very qualified trappers is there a reason those individuals could not apply to WDFW jobs and just be a WDFW employee?  That would seem to resolve the issue if its just a matter of getting the most skilled folks to do the job. 

Kind of like CNW being at every new wolf pack confirmation? CNW working with WDFW on the range rider program? etc.. No conflict of interest there.

If WDFW won't listen to the people they already have in the field, what makes you think they would listen to someone from the cattlemen working for them?

I'm sure WDFW could get Carter Niemeyer to trap wolves for them if they were really serious about confirming wolf packs. I think I read somewhere that Carter works with WDFW off and on anyway.

WDFW are always saying how the lookout pack is so elusive and they can't catch them, what a joke. What's one more lie from WDFW?

Idahohntr knows all this crap.

[idahohuntr]

WDFW said they turned down the cattlemens trapper was because they didn't want to appear to have favoritism, or appear that their decisions are being swayed by an outside organization.

I can understand that.  I know they took money from CNW to up the wolf poaching reward, but i could see why they would not want a special interest group to have their fingerprints on the data collection efforts. 

If the Cattlemen have very qualified trappers is there a reason those individuals could not apply to WDFW jobs and just be a WDFW employee?  That would seem to resolve the issue if its just a matter of getting the most skilled folks to do the job. 

the REAL trappers did not have Bio degrees that is why they couldnt be hired. But like i said they arn't necessary if a WDFW agent could accompany  the trapper.

I think they need to mod the job description/qualifications.  Bring the experienced trappers to the front of the line.  I see no need (and only problems) with having the Cattlemen furnish one of their own...take the same guy and hire him as a regular wdfw employee...image problem solved, experience problem solved, win-win. 

[Romulus1297]

Huffy our only donkey should be able to kick the belly out of a hybrid or coyote. If not and the hybrids or coyotes run our cows, calves, and bull through barbed wire and are there in the morning they would be shot. Simple as that.

[Special T]

WDFW said they turned down the cattlemens trapper was because they didn't want to appear to have favoritism, or appear that their decisions are being swayed by an outside organization.

I can understand that.  I know they took money from CNW to up the wolf poaching reward, but i could see why they would not want a special interest group to have their fingerprints on the data collection efforts. 

If the Cattlemen have very qualified trappers is there a reason those individuals could not apply to WDFW jobs and just be a WDFW employee?  That would seem to resolve the issue if its just a matter of getting the most skilled folks to do the job. 

the REAL trappers did not have Bio degrees that is why they couldnt be hired. But like i said they arn't necessary if a WDFW agent could accompany  the trapper.

I think they need to mod the job description/qualifications.  Bring the experienced trappers to the front of the line.  I see no need (and only problems) with having the Cattlemen furnish one of their own...take the same guy and hire him as a regular wdfw employee...image problem solved, experience problem solved, win-win.

Why would the Cattlemen give funds to the WDFW and NOT get to choose their experienced trapper?

IDHnter you have a very simplistic way of looking at this. There are many ways to slow the process down of documenting wolves so that we effectively have way more wolves than documented.
In poker they call the term being Slow Played. You let other people hustle and lead the way only to set yourself up to win in the end... The BP number is arbitrary if there is not a great effort to document wolves. Making excuses and arguing over tactics  or reasoning is just delay. Delay IS a tactic that allows more wolves before we can de-list.

[AspenBud]

WDFW said they turned down the cattlemens trapper was because they didn't want to appear to have favoritism, or appear that their decisions are being swayed by an outside organization.

I can understand that.  I know they took money from CNW to up the wolf poaching reward, but i could see why they would not want a special interest group to have their fingerprints on the data collection efforts. 

If the Cattlemen have very qualified trappers is there a reason those individuals could not apply to WDFW jobs and just be a WDFW employee?  That would seem to resolve the issue if its just a matter of getting the most skilled folks to do the job. 

the REAL trappers did not have Bio degrees that is why they couldnt be hired. But like i said they arn't necessary if a WDFW agent could accompany  the trapper.

I think they need to mod the job description/qualifications.  Bring the experienced trappers to the front of the line.  I see no need (and only problems) with having the Cattlemen furnish one of their own...take the same guy and hire him as a regular wdfw employee...image problem solved, experience problem solved, win-win.

Why would the Cattlemen give funds to the WDFW and NOT get to choose thier experienced trapper?

IDHnter you have a very simplistic way of looking at this. There are many ways to slow the process down of documenting wolves so that we effectively have way more wolves than documented.
In poker they call the term being Sow Played. You let other people hustle and lead the way only to set yourself up to win in the end... The BP number is arbitrary if there is not a great effort to document wolves. Making excuses and arguing over tactics  or reasoning is just delay. Delay IS a tactic that allows more wolves before we can de-list.

The dirty truth is it's hard to get a job at any level of government work without some sort of college degree. Way too much weight is given to degrees for a lot of work in government and higher education. This is not uncommon however. Having lived it first hand before getting fed up and going back into the private sector I can say this is not an unusual requirement. It is, however, a dumb requirement if all that is needed is someone to successfully trap an animal. There are plenty of bio's who could walk a trap line alongside an experienced trapper and get the results needed.

Experience should supersede education in some instances, but in the public sector world people go looking for places to poke holes when things go wrong and when an employee doesn't have both the experience and educational background people in management roast. The private sector doesn't get that kind of scrutiny so hiring managers tend to worry about their butts less in that regard.

[idahohuntr]

WDFW said they turned down the cattlemens trapper was because they didn't want to appear to have favoritism, or appear that their decisions are being swayed by an outside organization.

I can understand that.  I know they took money from CNW to up the wolf poaching reward, but i could see why they would not want a special interest group to have their fingerprints on the data collection efforts. 

If the Cattlemen have very qualified trappers is there a reason those individuals could not apply to WDFW jobs and just be a WDFW employee?  That would seem to resolve the issue if its just a matter of getting the most skilled folks to do the job. 

the REAL trappers did not have Bio degrees that is why they couldnt be hired. But like i said they arn't necessary if a WDFW agent could accompany  the trapper.

I think they need to mod the job description/qualifications.  Bring the experienced trappers to the front of the line.  I see no need (and only problems) with having the Cattlemen furnish one of their own...take the same guy and hire him as a regular wdfw employee...image problem solved, experience problem solved, win-win.

Why would the Cattlemen give funds to the WDFW and NOT get to choose thier experienced trapper?

IDHnter you have a very simplistic way of looking at this. There are many ways to slow the process down of documenting wolves so that we effectively have way more wolves than documented.
In poker they call the term being Sow Played. You let other people hustle and lead the way only to set yourself up to win in the end... The BP number is arbitrary if there is not a great effort to document wolves. Making excuses and arguing over tactics  or reasoning is just delay. Delay IS a tactic that allows more wolves before we can de-list.

I do not believe WDFW is delaying the confirmation of wolves and wolf packs to suit any needs or to "slow play" the de-listing process.  As controversial a topic as wolves are, where you can guarantee scrutiny and lawsuits will come about as a result of any and all decisions, the absolute quickest way to get fired and create huge problems would be to do anything that intentionally manipulates data to over or under report wolf numbers.  This is precisely why they would never allow the Cattlemens Assoc. to collect data for them...but again, I do not see why there should be any roadblocks to hiring the exact same guy just no Cattlemen money involved...he is a wdfw employee.  College degrees are often a requirement, but I don't think it would be difficult to make an exception if WDFW believes this is limiting their success.  I know they have relied more heavily on use of helicopters for location and capture of wolves recently and that may be an even better approach than having the best trapper in the world    The actions of the WDFW admin and staff (letter to USFWS requesting federal de-listing; multiple attempts to classify wolves as big game animals; requests for public reports of wolves; removal of wolves up in NE WA and many, many more) suggests to me they want the ability to manage wolves as a game animal just like Idaho and Montana.

[WAcoyotehunter]

I think you guys are underestimating the actual size of a wolf packs home range, and also misunderstanding the nature of pack dynamics.  Just because two wolves are spotted simultaneously 10 miles (or even 20-30 miles) apart does not mean that there are two wolf packs.  A wolf pack is not always together, or even close to one another.  They come and go...

As for the cattlemans "experienced trapper".... There is more to a capture effort than just catching a wolf.  Drugging, vet work, information gathering, blood draws,... these things require specialized training and WDFW isn't going to risk having to explain why the Cattleman's "experienced trapper" let a wolf die of hyperthermia....  

[AspenBud]

As for the cattlemans "experienced trapper".... There is more to a capture effort than just catching a wolf.  Drugging, vet work, information gathering, blood draws,... these things require specialized training and WDFW isn't going to risk having to explain why the Cattleman's "experienced trapper" let a wolf die of hyperthermia....

And there is a budgetary side to that as well. It's cheaper to hire someone who is the total package versus several Johnny One Note's. The problem is the total package can often be a unicorn.

[buckfvr]

Maybe an arrangement could be made for the in-dependant trapper to be accompanied on trap checking missions by said trained and qualified person from wdfw.

[Special T]

Maybe an arrangement could be made for the in-dependant trapper to be accompanied on trap checking missions by said trained and qualified person from wdfw.

That is essentially what the Cattlemens association offered up. Some one with the "training" required to ride with the knuckle draggin trapper that cant figure out some basic steps because he is too tainted by cattlemen's $

[WAcoyotehunter]

The WDFW has two trappers working.  I'm not sure they would want to send a trained person out with the cattleman's trapper.  If he needed someone along to do all the technical stuff, he wouldn't exactly be considered "independent".

If they wanted to help, they could fund a trapping effort.  It sucks, but that's the way it goes.

 

[Special T]

Who in thier right mind would send $ to a agency they considered suspect? 

IF the agency had an interest in tapping into funds and adding another trapper they could come to some kind of agreement i bet.

[buckfvr]

The WDFW has two trappers working.  I'm not sure they would want to send a trained person out with the cattleman's trapper.  If he needed someone along to do all the technical stuff, he wouldn't exactly be considered "independent".

If they wanted to help, they could fund a trapping effort.  It sucks, but that's the way it goes.

Successful in-dependant trappers are just that........

Cant slight a trappers trapping skills because he lacks data collection skills.

[idahohuntr]

Maybe an arrangement could be made for the in-dependant trapper to be accompanied on trap checking missions by said trained and qualified person from wdfw.

That is essentially what the Cattlemens association offered up. Some one with the "training" required to ride with the knuckle draggin trapper that cant figure out some basic steps because he is too tainted by cattlemen's $

Yes, this is exactly what was implied wasn't it.

[wolfbait]

I think you guys are underestimating the actual size of a wolf packs home range, and also misunderstanding the nature of pack dynamics.  Just because two wolves are spotted simultaneously 10 miles (or even 20-30 miles) apart does not mean that there are two wolf packs.  A wolf pack is not always together, or even close to one another.  They come and go...

As for the cattlemans "experienced trapper".... There is more to a capture effort than just catching a wolf.  Drugging, vet work, information gathering, blood draws,... these things require specialized training and WDFW isn't going to risk having to explain why the Cattleman's "experienced trapper" let a wolf die of hyperthermia....

That's right every wolf reported in the Okanogan is part of the lookout pack, even when nine are seen in Carlton and seven are seen up War cr the same day, twenty five or so miles apart. No wonder WDFW have to pick a number out of the sky in order to count their wolves.

I think WDFW's trappers need some oversight, send someone along besides CNW to see how many wolves they are collaring, because I know of wolves that are collared that WDFW never bring up, so do a few other people. Why is that WC? How come WDFW say there are only two collared wolves in the Methow? That isn't true and they know it. What about the wolves that are collard over in Salmon Cr on the Okanogan side? How come WDFW don't confirm that wolf pack? Are they waiting for some livestock kills?